Did Kevin Feige ask for Ms. Marvel's role in Dead Language?

[Tuck]

Respecting a character’s religion and social norms might be a headache, but a necessary one.

Where's the line on this, though?

For a lot of people, opposition to abortion and gay rights, and enforcing traditional gender roles are part of their religious beliefs, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. Either a critical view of these is off limits, or you create a fictional world where you give a skewed perspective of religion by avoiding having any of your characters (or worse, you only have bad guys hold those positions) hold these not-uncommon positions within their belief systems.

[cranger]

I think it'd be incredibly weird if Ziglar made that story up, so I believe he had that conversation with Wells. There is certainly wiggle room in Feige and Wells having a conversation where Wells believes he's received a request/requirement that Feige only considered a suggestion or prompt - that happens often enough where a misunderstanding like that might occur (e.g. Feige says something like, "It'd be great if we could just, I don't know, kill her and bring her back as a mutant since it's Ike's fault she's not a damn mutant in the first place" and Wells sees that as a directive).

It's frankly never made much sense that Wells had this idea out of nowhere and it just kind of magically turned into Kamala being the mutant she was always meant to be (w/the Hellfire Gala comic where she's resurrected lining up with when The Marvels was originally supposed to be released!) and Iman Vellani writing the character shortly thereafter. Whether that all happened because Feige ordered it versus casually made it known something like that would be a good idea is mostly academic to me.

I've been hanging out with friends who are telling about something that I was at and listen as they completely misremember things that happened or were said. Ziglar is speaking off the cuff and very casually so while he should not be accused of making things up he also should not be quoted as a source of behind the scenes information given there is very little to his story to substantiate anything. We saw how quickly the internet completely twisted this story around (and I am sure at least some people innocently misread things) so I think it is just as easy that the version of events Ziglar recounts is also the result of another game of 'telephone'.

[Scott Taylor]

The Ms. Marvel TV Show, which Feige is in charge of, made her a mutant too so I can find it completely plausible that Feige would have tried to get that synergy going with the book and the cinematic direction for the character. But it remains a little strange because the mutant thing in the TV show was almost a "blink and you miss it moment" for all the impact it had. Plus it was a little odd to have the bangles in the first place, with the mutant thing looming. I sometimes wonder if TPTB at Marvel even understand what a mutant is supposed to be and it makes me concerned about the (theoretically) upcoming mutant introduction and if it will even take place. Marvels made no mention of Kamala's mutant power and still relied on the bangles.

That said, the death in the comics should not have been done. It was very ham-fisted and ended up doing nothing for the character.

[Garlador]

Where's the line on this, though?

For a lot of people, opposition to abortion and gay rights, and enforcing traditional gender roles are part of their religious beliefs, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. Either a critical view of these is off limits, or you create a fictional world where you give a skewed perspective of religion by avoiding having any of your characters (or worse, you only have bad guys hold those positions) hold these not-uncommon positions within their belief systems.

I believe in what Stan Lee said that comics should reflect the world outside our window, and it’s not always perfect and pretty. And just like real life, we have people of differing ethnicities, religions, and values who often unite under a greater banner of brotherhood and sisterhood to make the world a better place for all.

Yet comics have - and should - challenge and tackle bigotry and intolerance. It’s never been lost on me that “God Loves, Man Kills” focuses on a religious zealot who misuses his pulpit to harm others.



And that there is an irony here on the panel above that the person being attacked is the most religious member of the X-Men in the first place.

I won’t pretend to be a theological expert on all religions, but I have Christian friends, Muslim friends, atheist friends, gay friends, transgender friends, and many foreign friends. And our circle of friendship endures. Even at my wedding, with them all in attendance and some of my more conservative relatives there, there was a peace for the sake of others. I’m a strong proponent that our kinships and connections are greater than our differences; and even those differences should be handled with civility and respect.

[Mister Mets]

Respecting a character’s religion and social norms might be a headache, but a necessary one. Her being Muslim is hardly the only “headache”; there are still issues with a teenage girl winding up naked in public, confused and disorientated.

And there was the bad optics of her being Pakistani and celebrated during AAPI Heritage month just a week prior to her being fridged. You can remove her religion entirely and there are still inadvisable choices made that didn’t factor in her race, age, or gender.

Overall, it’s just a mess from top-to-bottom, and the fact they’re still trying to point fingers and shift the blame says quite a bit about how mishandled the whole situation was.

I’ll say that if it’s too much of a “headache” to handle a character that important to so many people properly, then they should have left her alone until someone who understood the optics and history involved could do her proper justice.

I think there's a fine line between sensitivity and nuisance.

Some sensitivity is necessary. Writers should avoid shameless stereotypes and inaccurate details. There are some stories that would never be told with Kamala Khan given what she represents to Muslim readers. I suspect there will never be a story where she converts to Catholicism.

It's one thing to feature her in a one-shot celebrating AAPI heritage month. But it's restrictive to say that Marvel should not publish a story in May. That's the type of request that makes comics worse because you're asking to compromise on quality, and it's an incentive not to feature minority characters. That specific argument is no longer about handling her properly.

I've been hanging out with friends who are telling about something that I was at and listen as they completely misremember things that happened or were said. Ziglar is speaking off the cuff and very casually so while he should not be accused of making things up he also should not be quoted as a source of behind the scenes information given there is very little to his story to substantiate anything. We saw how quickly the internet completely twisted this story around (and I am sure at least some people innocently misread things) so I think it is just as easy that the version of events Ziglar recounts is also the result of another game of 'telephone'.

Yeah, I don't think he lied. He could have misunderstood a detail, as well as been misunderstood since some specifics remain vague.

Where's the line on this, though?

For a lot of people, opposition to abortion and gay rights, and enforcing traditional gender roles are part of their religious beliefs, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. Either a critical view of these is off limits, or you create a fictional world where you give a skewed perspective of religion by avoiding having any of your characters (or worse, you only have bad guys hold those positions) hold these not-uncommon positions within their belief systems.

This can get messy, especially if religions are treated differently so that Marvel is doing to a story where a kid who is raised Catholic questions his grandfather's insistence on traditional gender roles, but they wouldn't consider a story like that with a Muslim.

This would get to Jim Shooter's rule that you couldn't have African-American villains.

To be clear, I don't see any indication that there is this kind of restriction on Ms. Marvel comics.

[Garlador]

I think there's a fine line between sensitivity and nuisance.

Some sensitivity is necessary. Writers should avoid shameless stereotypes and inaccurate details. There are some stories that would never be told with Kamala Khan given what she represents to Muslim readers. I suspect there will never be a story where she converts to Catholicism.

It's one thing to feature her in a one-shot celebrating AAPI heritage month. But it's restrictive to say that Marvel should not publish a story in May. That's the type of request that makes comics worse because you're asking to compromise on quality, and it's an incentive not to feature minority characters. That specific argument is no longer about handling her properly.

Yeah, I don't think he lied. He could have misunderstood a detail, as well as been misunderstood since some specifics remain vague.

This can get messy, especially if religions are treated differently so that Marvel is doing to a story where a kid who is raised Catholic questions his grandfather's insistence on traditional gender roles, but they wouldn't consider a story like that with a Muslim.

This would get to Jim Shooter's rule that you couldn't have African-American villains.

To be clear, I don't see any indication that there is this kind of restriction on Ms. Marvel comics.

This is a much heavier topic than I can properly address in a quick rebuttal, but I do agree that from a purely business-driven perspective, Marvel is in the business of being inclusive and trying not to piss of entire demographics of people who read their comics. If a certain demographic enjoys a character and values the representation she brings to comics, it is purely bad business to yank her away from those traits (I have MUCH deeper thoughts on this that could last a month's worth of exchanges or longer, so pardon my likely incomplete thoughts on the matter here.)

My criticisms of how Marvel handled the Death of Ms. Marvel largely stem from a place of exasperation and lessons that should have been learned already. I don't remotely believe there was any malice involved in how she was treated, but the lack of peer-review or objections internally certainly raises red flags that the offices either aren't as diverse as they need to be, or that those who knew it was being mishandled were ignored or dismissed. It's not just one single thing that went wrong here; how Kamala was written as a teenager, as a woman, as a person of color, as a Muslim, and as just a character outright I have contention with. I'd even say that if Kamala had lived I would still feel she wasn't adequately handled up to that point. With better care, even her death could have come and gone without such consternation (as I mentioned earlier, she's died before without such outrage attached). If Marvel doesn't understand that it was how the story was handled - and not just the act of killing her - that caused such an uproar, then I truly believe there is a fundamental rot in the Spidey Offices regarding how they handle women and other marginalized people.

Offers were made to open a conversation with them about this. Even Nick Lowe said he would address everything at length after the story dropped and that conversation failed to materialize. It was clear the backlash was louder than they anticipated and they opted to put their heads down and weather out the storm.

I hope Ziglar isn't in too much trouble for reigniting the firestorm, because they almost got away with it. I'd argue that it's best for the whole industry if it's not simply swept under the rug and forgotten about.

[Lee]

I'd probably have to forage through interviews but I feel like he's been kind of casual and relaxed about his run in general. I also feel like Lowe is also definitely very involved.

He's very enthusiastic in the podcast I linked.

And why would a casual and relaxed demeanor lead you to believe that a writer is just writing whatever the editor is telling them to? How does that follow, logically?

It sounds like you've put forth an idea about real people's working relationship without any evidence to support what you're saying, which in my mind is tacky and somewhat irresponsible given all the harassment the team gets online.

Marvel Comics editors are always involved in the creative process, but to say that it's more so with this run than previous runs is a big claim that requires big evidence.

[Garlador]

Marvel Comics editors are always involved in the creative process, but to say that it's more so with this run than previous runs is a big claim that requires big evidence.

I checked his comments. He never said this, so let's dialed it back a bit.

Of course we know Lowe is involved, and we're not the writer so we don't know how hands-on or hands-off he actually is. We can only speculate based on what they've said.

[Lee]

Frontier, were you saying that you think this current run of ASM is more editorially dictated than the series typically has been in previous runs?

[Frontier]

Frontier, were you saying that you think this current run of ASM is more editorially dictated than the series typically has been in previous runs?

I don't know about more, because it definitely seemed like something happened to the second half of Spencer's run that I don't think was by his own design.

[Username taken]

Ms. Marvel was killed off in Amazing Spider-Man Volume 6 #26 by Zeb Wells and John Romita Jr.

Shortly after that, she was resurrected and connected to the X-Men comics (and presumably adaptations) with the reveal that she is a mutant. That was the plan when she was killed off, but plenty of readers were upset at the time.

In an interview with the Amazing Spider-Talk podcast, Cody Ziglar (currently writing the Miles Morales monthly as well as some spider-adjacent comics like the Spider-Punk mini-series, as well as other material like episodes of Futurama) said this was pushed by Kevin Feige.



Marvel was quick to say otherwise, suggesting Kevin Feige was not involved in the decision to make Ms Marvel a mutant.



The insiders don't disprove the idea that Kevin Feige had a discussion with Zeb Wells about Ms. Marvel, but there are so many ways the story could be misinterpreted in a weird game of telephone.

So what do you guys think?

I guess Feige "nudged" them and editorial and creative decided to do something about said nudge.

[Lee]

I don't know about more, because it definitely seemed like something happened to the second half of Spencer's run that I don't think was by his own design.

So do you think Zeb Wells' run on ASM is as editorially dictated as the series has always been, or that something changed halfway through Spencer's run around 2019, that has continued to the present day? That from 2019 or so, ASM has been more editorially dictated than has been typical prior to then?

[Frontier]

So do you think Zeb Wells' run on ASM is as editorially dictated as the series has always been, or that something changed halfway through Spencer's run around 2019, that has continued to the present day? That from 2019 or so, ASM has been more editorially dictated than has been typical prior to then?

I think that could be the case.

[Lee]

Thank you.

I think that's a big claim that requires big evidence. Zeb talked about the creative process in that podcast I linked earlier and what he said there doesn't align with that theory.

[Confuzzled]

Hadn't it been said that killing off Kamala was part of Wells' pitch to Lowe for his AMS run?
The most likely way of making sense of everything that has been said is that Feige mandated making Kamala a mutant, Wells decided to do so by killing her off and having the X-Men resurrect her, and then from the sound of it Lowe decided that it would be more of a shock if it came out of nowhere (because shock is a more important story telling value than a proper character arc) and if it were themed as a tribute to the Death of Gwen Stacy.

The shoddy way the comics went about executing Feige's prompt just shows how much worse the comics overall STILL ARE as compared to the MCU.