Titans Together! Teen Titans Appreciation

[byrd156]

It matter's for them too. No one has said it doesn't. Not being Batman-lite is a huge challenge that Dick faces. But he doesn't really go around wearing a cowl and throwing Batarangs. He has signature characteristics and features that help set him apart. Its not ok to be clone. Saying what matters is character work, that leads to more stories is an over simplification. Your completely ignoring the actual character work with Jason. Things like a character's look, abilities, and signature tools are important. These are the first things that make an impression on an audience. Its really not as simple as all a character needs is stories. Thats so general and over simplistic.

It is simple because they already have a look. These aren't characters that need to be built up from the ground, there is already a foundation. There is history, characters, past iconography, etc. to pick from.

Dick runs around at night fighting crime in a costume and has throwing weapons gadgets just like Bruce. Don't sit here and tell me he's not the same/similar when all that is ever talked about in the Dick thread is that he's Batman-lite. You can't have it both ways when it suits an argument. How am I ignoring Jason's character work? By pointing out that his look was changing constantly? My point of character work is simple on paper or saying it out loud or typing it into a comic book thread. But writing it and making it happen on a constant basis, is not. At all, I'm a writer myself and it's hard. You have to build a brand that is recognizable and continue the world/character in whatever story they are being featured in. Saying they need character work isn't an oversimplification in the slightest. Would you want me to start writing ideas that aren't so general and "simplistic"? Hell just continue what they were doing with her in the Titans show. It was a good blend of past stuff (her photography) and turned it into a way for her to fight crime and make art/news for people. Sure it's what Spider-Man does/did but no one on the DC side does anything like that. She could be a war photographer or the like, just spit balling ideas.

I'm not saying that these details don't matter, of course they do. People get drawn into a character because of the flashy costumes, gadgets or powers but stay (or at least I do) because of who they are and the stories they are involved in. I couldn't care less if Batman shot laser beams out of his eyes or Wonder Woman's lasso turned purple when she got angry. I'm pointing out that the issues that Donna has are beyond those. Writers constantly come in thinking this character's origin is a mess so they redo it, making it more broken than before. Then a cycle continues focusing on similar eras and parts of her life that are in constant flux. Focusing on her weaponry feels like trading one constantly repeating trend for a new one. Especially in comics when costume changes are like the wind, ever shifting in other directions. The whole why is Gamora meme is honestly the best way I can explain what writers should be focused on when writing her character. Writer's are constantly trying to do Who is Donna Troy over and over then it became Where is Donna Troy but there isn't a lot of books focusing on Why Donna is who she is. Why is she with the Titans? Why does she stay in man's world? Why isn't she and Diana closer? Why is she even a hero? There is so much more to do and explore with her rather than talking about customizing her character like it's an RPG game.

[SiegePerilous02]

It really boils down to a mixture of things. Lack of effort in the character work department is a major component, but in a visual brand-driven medium, so are character designs. The Fab 5 looking like color swapped versions of their mentors is simply not good if you're trying to grab people. Saying good character writing and good stories will solve all these problems is a big over simplification. There are other components to consider. If the visuals are communicating that Donna is a discount Wonder Woman, it doesn't matter what the stories are behind the cover, people might pass it over and just buy Wonder Woman or Justice League for the real deal.

It matter's for them too. No one has said it doesn't. Not being Batman-lite is a huge challenge that Dick faces. But he doesn't really go around wearing a cowl and throwing Batarangs. He has signature characteristics and features that help set him apart. Its not ok to be clone. Saying what matters is character work, that leads to more stories is an over simplification. Your completely ignoring the actual character work with Jason. Things like a character's look, abilities, and signature tools are important. These are the first things that make an impression on an audience. Its really not as simple as all a character needs is stories. Thats so general and over simplified.

Yes, if this was that easy and all it took was good stories, it would happen more often than it actually does. The fact is DC doesn't always know how to market every character, sometimes it's due to their incompetence and sometimes there are genuine difficulties, and not every writer is going to be excited to tackle the character or have an idea for them despite fans clamoring to just make it happen, behind the scenes factors be damned.

[Godlike13]

It is simple because they already have a look. These aren't characters that need to be built up from the ground, there is already a foundation. There is history, characters, past iconography, etc. to pick from.

Dick runs around at night fighting crime in a costume and has throwing weapons gadgets just like Bruce. Don't sit here and tell me he's not the same/similar when all that is ever talked about in the Dick thread is that he's Batman-lite. You can't have it both ways when it suits an argument. How am I ignoring Jason's character work? By pointing out that his look was changing constantly? My point of character work is simple on paper or saying it out loud or typing it into a comic book thread. But writing it and making it happen on a constant basis, is not. At all, I'm a writer myself and it's hard. You have to build a brand that is recognizable and continue the world/character in whatever story they are being featured in. Saying they need character work isn't an oversimplification in the slightest. Would you want me to start writing ideas that aren't so general and "simplistic"? Hell just continue what they were doing with her in the Titans show. It was a good blend of past stuff (her photography) and turned it into a way for her to fight crime and make art/news for people. Sure it's what Spider-Man does/did but no one on the DC side does anything like that. She could be a war photographer or the like, just spit balling ideas.

I'm not saying that these details don't matter, of course they do. People get drawn into a character because of the flashy costumes, gadgets or powers but stay (or at least I do) because of who they are and the stories they are involved in. I couldn't care less if Batman shot laser beams out of his eyes or Wonder Woman's lasso turned purple when she got angry. I'm pointing out that the issues that Donna has are beyond those. Writers constantly come in thinking this character's origin is a mess so they redo it, making it more broken than before. Then a cycle continues focusing on similar eras and parts of her life that are in constant flux. Focusing on her weaponry feels like trading one constantly repeating trend for a new one. Especially in comics when costume changes are like the wind, ever shifting in other directions. The whole why is Gamora meme is honestly the best way I can explain what writers should be focused on when writing her character. Writer's are constantly trying to do Who is Donna Troy over and over then it became Where is Donna Troy but there isn't a lot of books focusing on Why Donna is who she is. Why is she with the Titans? Why does she stay in man's world? Why isn't she and Diana closer? Why is she even a hero? There is so much more to do and explore with her rather than talking about customizing her character like it's an RPG game.

Their foundation is out of date, and has not benefited them or the Titans in a very long time. They can not continue to be clones.

I already said, very clearly, that being Batman-lite is a huge challenge that Dick faces. In am not trying to have it both ways. But unlike Donna Dick at least has other obvious characteristics and features, visually and narratively, that help to set him apart. Donna on the other hand doesn't. Not really. She doesn't really have anything that's even signature to her. And you ignored Jason's character work by contributing his success to "getting story after story", ignoring what was actually done in those stories. Jason saw pretty much a complete overhaul. Controversial changes were made to him that made him stand out and different from those around him. From his look, the tools he used, and even his disposition. Just saying that a character needs work or stories is a very simple and easy thing say, of course a character needs works and stories. Thats not cracking the code. Thats just a general over simplification of a basic need. The point about her weapon is that its a continuation of an underline problem that Donna has imo. That being, she is too much of clone. Obviously she needs character work and stories, as all characters do, but specifically i think they really need to start developing unique features and characteristics, visually and narratively, that help Donna stand out more and not be such a clone. Now do i think they need to go as extreme as they did with Jason, no, but i do think Donna could certainly benefit from them changing some things up with her. Much like they did with Jason.

[Agent Z]

I disagree, my main point is character work. Dick, Bruce, Jason, Tim, and Damian are all white guys with black hair. Power Girl and Supergirl are both blondes and Conner is a literal clone of Superman. Why does this matter so much for Donna and not anyone else? What matters is character work, that leads to more stories. It's not an over simplification at all, he had many different looks over that time with different weapons being used before a finalized arsenal of weapons that still keep changing. You are more focused on the surface-level details, I don't think those make the characters. Something like the Sword of Atom for example explores a character while changing almost all the surface level details while being true to who they are. Donna is more than a costume or a lasso or a sword & shield. You can think those matter more than getting stories focused around her, I don't.

Damian isn’t white. Connor was very different from Clark in terms of power and personality. Karen’s similarities to Kara have also been a hindrance to her. There’s a reason she was just an alternative skin for Kara in Injustice.

[Frontier]

Lot of people seemed to respond well to Donna on the Titans show and she wasn't all that different from the traditional depiction of Donna.

I think if Donna were more prominent and utilized in media better it really wouldn't matter much that she takes so much visually from Wonder Woman since people would better understand and appreciate the character on her own terms and in relation to Wonder Woman.

The lasso can serve very nicely as the signature weapon (and tool) of the Wonder Woman family. The black jumpsuit with stars easily helps to differentiate her from Wonder Woman. It'd also help if artists were able to draw her face and body to look slightly different from Diana as well, but that'd require DC to stick to a sensible origin story.

Batfamily has bat-gadgets.

Superfamily has Superman's powers.

Flash Family has superspeed.

Arrow Family shoot bows and arrows.

Aquafamily have Aquaman's base powerset (aside from the telepathy).

So I think characters associated with Wonder Woman can have their own lasso's.

[SiegePerilous02]

Lot of people seemed to respond well to Donna on the Titans show and she wasn't all that different from the traditional depiction of Donna.

But the traditional Donna is Wonder Girl. It's not easy to transfer all of that success to the comics because she isn't Wonder Girl anymore. Cassie is. She can never be Wonder Woman. It's ok for Wonder Girl, the protege, to be similar to her mentor, but 20 something Donna needs to be doing something else because as an adult Wonder hero, she's redundant with Wonder Woman around.

Batfamily has bat-gadgets.

Superfamily has Superman's powers.

Flash Family has superspeed.

Arrow Family shoot bows and arrows.

Aquafamily have Aquaman's base powerset (aside from the telepathy).

So I think characters associated with Wonder Woman can have their own lasso's.

It could be argued that similarity across the family lines hasn't helped a lot of the characters, particularly Donna's generation. Dick being Batman-lite is a MAJOR problem the character faces, and not helped by the fact that there are three other major Robins and a massive Bat-Family full of non powered badass normals in an urban setting. But Jason at least gets to use guns.

The Superman family can be a little more varied. Kon has some additional powers, Steel is a mortal man in armor, and Kara is the distaff counterpart to Superman, so the same power set is not an issue with her because she's distinct from him in a very obvious way (ditto Barbara in relation to Bruce). But like Agent Z said, a Karen who cannot reside on Earth-2 has trouble getting outshined by Kara.

The DCU has proven to not be big enough for Barry and Wally the way fans want the latter to be. Roy is just Green Arrow but red.

All of this is just at a glance, but from a marketing perspective, that can be all these characters get. Again, teenage sidekicks being mini versions of their adult mentors is fine. it's to be expected. it's why Dick's generation were fine when they were Robin, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, Speedy and Aqualad and they had no other sidekicks coming up behind them, and it was all exciting and new. it's not new anymore, the cannot go backwards or replace their mentors, outside the box story telling is what they need. Homogenizing all the groups isn't a good idea, and just makes everything so visually boring.

[Frontier]

But the traditional Donna is Wonder Girl. It's not easy to transfer all of that success to the comics because she isn't Wonder Girl anymore. Cassie is. She can never be Wonder Woman. It's ok for Wonder Girl, the protege, to be similar to her mentor, but 20 something Donna needs to be doing something else because as an adult Wonder hero, she's redundant with Wonder Woman around.

The "traditional" Donna is NTT/Post-Crisis Donna. If people see a version of Donna who acts like that, or like she did in the show, I don't think they will be too fussed about what identity she is using.

She's barely in enough media as it is, especially with how little due Wonder Woman's world gets in outside media.

If Dick can still be Robin in other media, while still being Nightwing in the comics, then the same should be fine for Donna now that adaptions are slowly starting to use her more.

Wonder Woman's not going to be leading the Titans and she's not going to act like Donna or have the same relationships Donna has, which is what people enjoy about her character and make her distinct from Diana.

It could be argued that similarity across the family lines hasn't helped a lot of the characters, particularly Donna's generation. Dick being Batman-lite is a MAJOR problem the character faces, and not helped by the fact that there are three other major Robins and a massive Bat-Family full of non powered badass normals in an urban setting. But Jason at least gets to use guns.

That hasn't really hurt the Batfamily in still being one of DC's most popular and ever-present family of heroes. Probably because the branding and iconography of the Batman franchise is so powerful and all of them lean into it in some ways.

Fans can complain about Dick being Batman-lite but he's still indisputably a popular character and someone with a long-running solo book.

The Superman family can be a little more varied. Kon has some additional powers, Steel is a mortal man in armor, and Kara is the distaff counterpart to Superman, so the same power set is not an issue with her because she's distinct from him in a very obvious way (ditto Barbara in relation to Bruce). But like Agent Z said, a Karen who cannot reside on Earth-2 has trouble getting outshined by Kara.

But that just gets into the idea that a family of characters can have similar powersets but still be distinctive from each other.

Every Flash is a Speedster but not every Flash utilizes their speed or has their speed in the same way.

I think Karen's problem is that DC hasn't done anything with Power Girl in a long time, even though she had her own solo book that did fairly well pre-Flashpoint, running alongside an ongoing Supergirl book as well.

The DCU has proven to not be big enough for Barry and Wally the way fans want the latter to be. Roy is just Green Arrow but red.

DC has proven that they don't want to give Wally his due with Barry around. That doesn't mean you can't, and the Flash Family was a Wally thing that Waid popularized to begin with.

Only someone with very little knowledge of Roy Harper would say he is Green Arrow but red. Being an archer does not make you automatically exactly like Oliver Queen. Connor Hawke was basically a black Green Arrow but he was nothing like Ollie.

All of this is just at a glance, but from a marketing perspective, that can be all these characters get. Again, teenage sidekicks being mini versions of their adult mentors is fine. it's to be expected. it's why Dick's generation were fine when they were Robin, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, Speedy and Aqualad and they had no other sidekicks coming up behind them, and it was all exciting and new. it's not new anymore, the cannot go backwards or replace their mentors, outside the box story telling is what they need. Homogenizing all the groups isn't a good idea, and just makes everything so visually boring.

I think the problem is just viewing them as mini-versions of their mentors, which just comes across like a very shallow reading of those characters and their history.

I don't think anyone is asking for "homogenizing all the groups" since that seems to just instantly assume people want the Titans to act and look exactly like their mentors, which I don't think is what fans actually want, but they don't want to just make the characters unrecognizable either.

[richalex]

You mentioned her being the 'modern amazon' which is funny because i always thought it would be cool if she used technological weapons along with her physical abilities, leaving the ancient weaponry to Diana. Kinda like if Red Sonja had access to the X-O Manowar armor.

I said this in another thread, I think Donna should have had the name Arsenal. As an Amazon she would know, or want to know how to use any and all weaponry. So the name, and abilities would work better for her than Roy. Let Roy be Red Arrow. It would also make her different from Diana and Cassie as Cassie would be too young and Diana from actually Themysicra.

[SiegePerilous02]

The "traditional" Donna is NTT/Post-Crisis Donna. If people see a version of Donna who acts like that, or like she did in the show, I don't think they will be too fussed about what identity she is using.

If people aren't fussed about what identity she is using, what are we disagreeing on? Donna cannot be Wonder Girl, but she can act like she does in the show. But it's not a good idea to have her run around with a lasso, shield and sword in a black WW-looking outfit if she isn't Wonder Girl, because then she's going to look like a clone.

We can have good respect for her character and history and relationships and still address the problem of being Wonder Woman lite. Restoring all that other stuff isn't going to automatically solve the latter problem.

If Dick can still be Robin in other media, while still being Nightwing in the comics, then the same should be fine for Donna now that adaptions are slowly starting to use her more.

I don't recall saying she couldn't be Wonder Girl in other media? Just like Dick can still be Robin. But in the Titans show, Dick is quitting being Robin and is transitioning to Nightwing. The show is doing well, so do you want to ape what the show is doing right and make Dick go through this character arc again? Donna's already left Wonder Girl behind in the comics, the problem is that her history after that is very spotty even before we get into the Ne 52 or Rebirth. TV Donna doesn't have that problem because she doesn't have that continuity. Success in other media is not always easy to exactly copy back in the source material.

Wonder Woman's not going to be leading the Titans and she's not going to act like Donna or have the same relationships Donna has, which is what people enjoy about her character and make her distinct from Diana.

With Donna's history and relationships obliterated, she has no foundation left to form a distinctive character from. What is her character now? Most of the Fab 5 is suffering from this problem.

That hasn't really hurt the Batfamily in still being one of DC's most popular and ever-present family of heroes. Probably because the branding and iconography of the Batman franchise is so powerful and all of them lean into it in some ways.

And the problem is that Nightwing's fanbase seems to want something more from him, but he cannot get it if he relies on Bat-Daddy too much and does stories that are better suited for Batman or Daredevil or Spider-Man.

Fans can complain about Dick being Batman-lite but he's still indisputably a popular character and someone with a long-running solo book.

And yet...

Ric Grayson.jpg

DC has proven that they don't want to give Wally his due with Barry around. That doesn't mean you can't, and the Flash Family was a Wally thing that Waid popularized to begin with.

Waid built the Flash family around Wally, when he was the main Flash. The likes of Jay and Max Mercury were firmly in the mentor role and Bart was the next generation sidekick. Wally and Barry are two Alphas and DC evidently doesn't know how to not have one main Flash. That's no excuse for some of the other things they've done with Wally, but being THE Flash is no longer in the cards for him. So DC needs to get some new creative directions for him and the fanbase could learn to be more receptive (within reason).

Only someone with very little knowledge of Roy Harper would say he is Green Arrow but red. Being an archer does not make you automatically exactly like Oliver Queen. Connor Hawke was basically a black Green Arrow but he was nothing like Ollie.

I'm admittedly not the biggest or well versed Roy fan, but we're not dealing with the guy who has the same history and is a father anymore, right? I thought their histories made these characters? What is Roy without his history, and why does he have to have ANY aesthetic similarities with Ollie post-Speedy at all?

Like after a quick Google search, here is his first Arsenal costume. Why not modernize something like this?
Arsenal.jpg

He apparently used ranged weapons still, but they weren't bows and arrows, and he had other weapons on his person as well. Why not distinguish Roy from Ollie both on a basic visual level (costume, weapons) and his personal history/life (recovering drug addict, single father, spotty relationship with Cheshire, etc)?

I think the problem is just viewing them as mini-versions of their mentors, which just comes across like a very shallow reading of those characters and their history.

Every superhero in the Big two is (partially) a gimmick that needs to be marketed. With names like "Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, Aqualad," mini-versions of their mentors is precisely what they were. And that's ok because they were sidekicks at the time. I don't think they need to stay like that now, but DC needs to allow them to be something else. I can't see how, without most of their history and stuck in bland stories where the JL babysits them and not wearing very distinctive costumes, it's hard not to view them as mini versions of five bigger characters.

BUT:
- at one point, Dick as Nightwing was distinct from Batman because Bruce was a less capable of leader and mostly stuck to the shadows as a grim detective. Dick wore a flashier costume, was at the forefront of a prolific superhero team, and his name was inspired by Superman.
- at one point, Donna was heavily tied to the Titans of myth, a corner of Greek myth Diana rarely interacts with. She has been the goddess of the moon. She has had the ability to create photonic energy blasts and shields, and project three dimensional images of people's memories. And some of her Troia outfits were distinct from Diana, not to mention her supporting casts in Man's World like Terry Long (believe it or not, Donna was better with Terry than she is now), her adopted family and the aliens related to New Chronus.
- Roy we covered. Wally sidestepped all this BS by actually taking over his mentor's role.
- Garth always had the aquatic thing going on, but his first Tempest costume designed by Jimenez made him stand out from other Atlanteans whereas his current one makes him look like just one more face in the Atlantis crowd. That combined with the spell casting made him distinct from Arthur.

I don't think anyone is asking for "homogenizing all the groups" since that seems to just instantly assume people want the Titans to act and look exactly like their mentors, which I don't think is what fans actually want, but they don't want to just make the characters unrecognizable either.

But by saying you want or at least think it's fine for Dick to throw Batarangs and be an urban vigilante like the rest of the Bat-Family, that Donna should have a lasso because Diana and Cassie each have one, and that Roy should use bows and arrows because he's associated with Ollie...I'm sorry, but you kind of are asking for it, at least a little.

These characters can be recognizable and in-character and still not resemble their current shallow models. Their very history and the various designs and gimmicks they've each adopted can attest to that. I refuse to think that not wanting post-Wonder Girl Donna to carry a lasso around automatically equates to what I and some others are calling for as unrecognizable.

[Frontier]

If people aren't fussed about what identity she is using, what are we disagreeing on? Donna cannot be Wonder Girl, but she can act like she does in the show. But it's not a good idea to have her run around with a lasso, shield and sword in a black WW-looking outfit if she isn't Wonder Girl, because then she's going to look like a clone.

We can have good respect for her character and history and relationships and still address the problem of being Wonder Woman lite. Restoring all that other stuff isn't going to automatically solve the latter problem.

I think what we're disagreeing on is whether being associated with the Wonder Woman franchise and utilizing the iconography of Wonder Woman is a bad thing for Donna.

With Donna's history and relationships obliterated, she has no foundation left to form a distinctive character from. What is her character now? Most of the Fab 5 is suffering from this problem.

Which is usually why fans want these characters to get their histories back.

And the problem is that Nightwing's fanbase seems to want something more from him, but he cannot get it if he relies on Bat-Daddy too much and does stories that are better suited for Batman or Daredevil or Spider-Man.

And that's fair enough, but Nightwing still probably has it better then a lot of characters of his generation or standing.

And yet...

This is terrible (but also probably not permanent), and just another indication of how much DC doesn't seem to care all that much about the Titans generation of heroes.
Ric Grayson.jpg

Waid built the Flash family around Wally, when he was the main Flash. The likes of Jay and Max Mercury were firmly in the mentor role and Bart was the next generation sidekick. Wally and Barry are two Alphas and DC evidently doesn't know how to not have one main Flash. That's no excuse for some of the other things they've done with Wally, but being THE Flash is no longer in the cards for him. So DC needs to get some new creative directions for him and the fanbase could learn to be more receptive (within reason).

But DC isn't even trying to have Barry and Wally co-exist in any form. They've just been de-railing Wally ever since he came back.

I'm admittedly not the biggest or well versed Roy fan, but we're not dealing with the guy who has the same history and is a father anymore, right? I thought their histories made these characters? What is Roy without his history, and why does he have to have ANY aesthetic similarities with Ollie post-Speedy at all?

A lot of his history was brought back with Rebirth, but they never got to re-introduce Lian yet.

Roy is a Green Arrow character. Why is it wrong to acknowledge and respect that?

Like after a quick Google search, here is his first Arsenal costume. Why not modernize something like this?
Arsenal.jpg

He apparently used ranged weapons still, but they weren't bows and arrows, and he had other weapons on his person as well. Why not distinguish Roy from Ollie both on a basic visual level (costume, weapons) and his personal history/life (recovering drug addict, single father, spotty relationship with Cheshire, etc)?

That looks reminds me of some of his Red Arrow/ other Arsenal looks (personally I think Roy looks better in red).

I think you can make Roy look distinctive while still acknowledging his history as a former protege of Green Arrow, with the characterization/personal life differences as added flavor.

Every superhero in the Big two is (partially) a gimmick that needs to be marketed. With names like "Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, Aqualad," mini-versions of their mentors is precisely what they were. And that's ok because they were sidekicks at the time. I don't think they need to stay like that now, but DC needs to allow them to be something else. I can't see how, without most of their history and stuck in bland stories where the JL babysits them and not wearing very distinctive costumes, it's hard not to view them as mini versions of five bigger characters.

BUT:
- at one point, Dick as Nightwing was distinct from Batman because Bruce was a less capable of leader and mostly stuck to the shadows as a grim detective. Dick wore a flashier costume, was at the forefront of a prolific superhero team, and his name was inspired by Superman.
- at one point, Donna was heavily tied to the Titans of myth, a corner of Greek myth Diana rarely interacts with. She has been the goddess of the moon. She has had the ability to create photonic energy blasts and shields, and project three dimensional images of people's memories. And some of her Troia outfits were distinct from Diana, not to mention her supporting casts in Man's World like Terry Long (believe it or not, Donna was better with Terry than she is now), her adopted family and the aliens related to New Chronus.
- Roy we covered. Wally sidestepped all this BS by actually taking over his mentor's role.
- Garth always had the aquatic thing going on, but his first Tempest costume designed by Jimenez made him stand out from other Atlanteans whereas his current one makes him look like just one more face in the Atlantis crowd. That combined with the spell casting made him distinct from Arthur.

And a lot of these elements helped make the characters distinct and popular even when they were still associated with their main franchise.

Tempest's costume was distinct but it still came off as an aquatic costume you would see an Aquafamily character sport. I think his current one has the same effect, it's his personality and lack of focus that makes him come across as just another face in Atlantis.

But by saying you want or at least think it's fine for Dick to throw Batarangs and be an urban vigilante like the rest of the Bat-Family, that Donna should have a lasso because Diana and Cassie each have one, and that Roy should use bows and arrows because he's associated with Ollie...I'm sorry, but you kind of are asking for it, at least a little.

I think it's fine for them to look and act like characters associated with the franchise they're a part of and that originated them, not be wholesale copies of their mentors.

Personally I don't see that as an issue, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

These characters can be recognizable and in-character and still not resemble their current shallow models. Their very history and the various designs and gimmicks they've each adopted can attest to that. I refuse to think that not wanting post-Wonder Girl Donna to carry a lasso around automatically equates to what I and some others are calling for as unrecognizable.

And I think what others and I are trying to argue is that Donna utilizing a lasso as a weapon doesn't automatically have to be seen as a detriment or as making her Wonder Woman-lite, just obviously a character associated with Wonder Woman (which now more then ever is probably a good thing).

[SiegePerilous02]

I think we can all pretty much agree on that we are endlessly frustrated at DC's treatment of this generation. And their histories need to be restored.

And that's fair enough, but Nightwing still probably has it better then a lot of characters of his generation or standing.

Definitely, but it honestly seems like it's due to association with Batman than DC having any genuine respect or plan for the character himself. At least when he's Nightwing.

But DC isn't even trying to have Barry and Wally co-exist in any form. They've just been de-railing Wally ever since he came back.

And shame on them, they definitely need to correct that. But if they don't know how to write two Flashes, it may be best to come up with some other solutions for Wally than trying to form an extended Flash family with Two Lead Flashes that they clearly have no interest in.

Roy is a Green Arrow character. Why is it wrong to acknowledge and respect that?

That looks reminds me of some of his Red Arrow/ other Arsenal looks (personally I think Roy looks better in red).

I think you can make Roy look distinctive while still acknowledging his history as a former protege of Green Arrow, with the characterization/personal life differences as added flavor.

Why does putting him in something like his old Arsenal getup mean he is no longer associated with Green Arrow? He was still Speedy. He just isn't anymore. Just because he knows how to use bows and arrows and Ollie uses them, why can't he branch out and try other things?
He also has to be a Titans character and stand as part of that franchise. He has a history as a sidekick archer. Now he's an adult with that history and has his own gimmick and can still guest star in the Green Arrow books.

"Red Arrow" is the most unimaginative name they could have possibly given him. "Arsenal" isn't stellar, but at least it's different and tells you his cache of weapons isn't limited to one thing like Ollie's is.

And a lot of these elements helped make the characters distinct and popular even when they were still associated with their main franchise.

Yes, so why can't we get something like that again? I think the goal here is distinct looks and gimmicks for each of the Fab 5 that still allow them to seamlessly show up in their parent franchises, but not look like they could only be part of said franchises. Or look too much like their mentors, because their mentors are always going to be the bigger characters with those gimmicks.

Tempest's costume was distinct but it still came off as an aquatic costume you would see an Aquafamily character sport. I think his current one has the same effect, it's his personality and lack of focus that makes him come across as just another face in Atlantis.

I dunno, his current costume with the scale armor reminds me instantly of Arthur and Mera, except his is blue vs. their gold and green.
The writing and lack of direction is the main issue, but this is a visual medium. Their bland/derivative costumes are not helping at all.

I think it's fine for them to look and act like characters associated with the franchise they're a part of and that originated them, not be wholesale copies of their mentors.

Which is fine, my issue is that their current designs are not as good at conveying that as some of their older costumes and powers were. Donna's various star field costumes look appropriately mythic and fit in with the Wonder Woman mythos when she shows up, but it has enough unique design elements to not make her look like a copy.

[Dred]

The idea that legacy characters suffer for being similar to their predecessors is such a backwards idea that I can't stomach it.

No, they do not struggle. No less than Barry Allen and Hal Jordan are struggling right now despite being direct rip off legacy characters. These characters struggle because those who control their fate force them to. That has always and will always be the reason. The fact that they carry symbols of station that the vast majority of the mainstream world can instantly recognize due to being ingrained in the cultural zeitgeist is only to their benefit as characters and only helps their odds of success should they ever be given a chance.

I mean really, the only character of the Fab Five who was ever given a serious shot at stepping up was Wally and he not only succeeded, he succeeded so well that the entire franchise has revolved around his era even when they got rid of him. Dick was moved laterally and still succeeded and even his brief time as Batman was incredible despite the very intentionally planned obsolescence.

Garth never got a shot. They tried to Nightwing someone in a franchise that doesn't have Batman's laurels to coast on, so Tempest was never a go (heck, at times, Aquaman wasn't working). Donna has never been given a chance. They made her Wonder Woman for like 3 months then killed her and have spent the entire rest of her history fucking her over in the most convoluted ways imaginable to distance her from Wonder Woman rather than embrace her legacy. Roy, well, we all know what DC has done with Roy. Amusingly, they gave Conner a chance instead of Roy and never made much out of it. But that's a franchise popularity thing more than anything.

[byrd156]

Damian isn’t white. Connor was very different from Clark in terms of power and personality. Karen’s similarities to Kara have also been a hindrance to her. There’s a reason she was just an alternative skin for Kara in Injustice.

Damian is half and looks white.

[Digifiend]

The lasso is iconic when associated with Wonder Girl. Unless we want her to be Wonder Girl again (and no can do with Cassie coming back), ditch the lasso.

Yeah, Donna is being well received in other media. But that Donna is Wonder Girl, and the only Wonder Girl that ever was. Same as Dick only just getting around to giving up the Robin identity in the show now instead of being Nightwing for years. It's not simple to transplant what is working in the show into the comics, because the comics did all that stuff already. The show is not burdened by years on continuity, and gets to tell these stories to a wider audiences, whereas it's all a rehash to us and wouldn't work in the comics. Do something else.

It's not no can do. Tim and Conner are Robin and Superboy. But so are Damian and Jon. It's possible to have two Wonder Girls. The real reason Donna doesn't use the name now isn't Cassie's existence, it's her own age. The mantle that should end up being shared is that of Wonder Woman - which she DID use, VERY recently. Ben Rubel asked if Donna was Wonder Woman in Titans #25. She said she was.

[byrd156]

Their foundation is out of date, and has not benefited them or the Titans in a very long time. They can not continue to be clones.

I already said, very clearly, that being Batman-lite is a huge challenge that Dick faces. In am not trying to have it both ways. But unlike Donna Dick at least has other obvious characteristics and features, visually and narratively, that help to set him apart. Donna on the other hand doesn't. Not really. She doesn't really have anything that's even signature to her. And you ignored Jason's character work by contributing his success to "getting story after story", ignoring what was actually done in those stories. Jason saw pretty much a complete overhaul. Controversial changes were made to him that made him stand out and different from those around him. From his look, the tools he used, and even his disposition. Just saying that a character needs work or stories is a very simple and easy thing say, of course a character needs works and stories. Thats not cracking the code. Thats just a general over simplification of a basic need. The point about her weapon is that its a continuation of an underline problem that Donna has imo. That being, she is too much of clone. Obviously she needs character work and stories, as all characters do, but specifically i think they really need to start developing unique features and characteristics, visually and narratively, that help Donna stand out more and not be such a clone. Now do i think they need to go as extreme as they did with Jason, no, but i do think Donna could certainly benefit from them changing some things up with her. Much like they did with Jason.

I didn't ignore it, I said story after story in reference to getting consistently published. Do you want to t write down everything that he did in those stories when that doesn't have to do with my point? Jason's direction made sense for becoming an unstable anti-hero, what shake-up works for Donna that fits her character and isn't just a shake-up because you think the character needs one?

I think where Donna is, she is more of a clone to Wonder Woman but she wasn't like this before. She had unique features and characteristics visually while being sprinkled throughout some big stories that she got. This is where things get even more subjective but I really liked where she was before the reboot and had a lot of potential as a figurehead of the new JL. What we have now is insulting to all the work writers put into her before from the NTT to Darkstars and onward. Donna doesn't need a shake-up/overhaul, we are in the middle of another one with her right now.