Titans Together! Teen Titans Appreciation

[Badou]

See, I'm not arguing that Dick and Donna might have been closer. That's something that I largely agree with. When compared to the trinity of the Justice League, it's the Wonder and Bat characters who are the closest and not the Super(Flash) and Bat characters and... that's fine. But to say that they aren't close at all just seems kind of, well, silly, don't you think? I'd prefer if they were all for the most part returned to the relationships that they've had in the past, but to do that the writing would have to be better... which I guess they're slowly getting towards based on the special (which, I know, is a controversial opinion here but I stand by it) and the preview that we've read.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Donna and Wally weren't close, but I think it does a disservice to the characters to call Wally Donna's best friend with Dick standing there, but I am someone that would even put Donna and Dick's friendship above Dick's friendship with Wally probably. And I don't see them returning to their old relationship under Abnett's pen. Maybe if Doomsday Clock retcons the current stuff and/or brings back the old continuity then they might return to it, but I don't see Abnett being the one to write that if it happens. I feel like he is just on Titans because DC is just waiting to relaunch the title next year and needs someone to hold the title until then.

Honestly my hope is that now that Abnett has a better hold on Dick's voice (and he does: I see people saying he's still playing Lapdog to the league but he's not. The special was about him setting his own terms, being his own man and leader, telling the League what he was doing whether they liked it or not, building his own team outside of Miss Martian) that he's going to get to Donna now. I actually think that Donna's alcoholism might lead to us getting something close to how Donna used to be back and it adds an extra nuance to her character: she's not "miss perfect" at the end of this, she's been through personal troubles and troubles that go even beyond that. Kind of like when Ms Marvel (in?)famously had a similar plotline.

I strongly disagree with this. Abnett is one of the worst writers of Dick's character I've read. Nothing he did made up for how badly he has written Dick since Titans Hunt, and in the Special he continues to write him poorly. Dick is supposed to be very good at reading people, but he couldn't recognize that a woman was scared and chased her into an oncoming train to her death. Next he "stood up" to the JL and I guess this was Abnett's attempt at trying to fix how weak willed and spineless Dick was in Abnett's last arc when it came to the JL, but all that is immediately undercut by the fact the JL still treat him like a teenager, Dick agrees to work under their supervision in the JL Headquarters despite trying to stand up to them, and has no say when the JL puts Miss Martian on his team. All this after the JL continue to talk down to him like a child and throw how he let down and failed his previous team (which still makes no sense) in his face which he puts up no protest against. I understand what Abnett is trying to do, but it is all such a big joke.

I know you have been a big defender of the Titans series, and I have been a big critic of it, but while I think it is a positive step that the Titans finally have a mission statement it is all so poorly constructed. It is like he takes one step forward then two steps back.

[Harpsikord]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Donna and Wally weren't close, but I think it does a disservice to the characters to call Wally Donna's best friend with Dick standing there, but I am someone that would even put Donna and Dick's friendship above Dick's friendship with Wally probably. And I don't see them returning to their old relationship under Abnett's pen. Maybe if Doomsday Clock retcons the current stuff and/or brings back the old continuity then they might return to it, but I don't see Abnett being the one to write that if it happens. I feel like he is just on Titans because DC is just waiting to relaunch the title next year and needs someone to hold the title until then.

See I think it largely comes down to whether you believe someone can have more than one best friend. I don't see Donna claiming that Wally was her best friend meaning that Dick isn't also one of her best friends and in fact I think his 'well, i'm here in the same scene is meant to display the opposite of that even if we haven't explicitly seen that yet. Same for Dick and Wally being best friends which was at least something we did see. I think that largely, Abnett hasn't put the emphasis on Donna that he wants us to think he has; I've said it before and I think the only character that he really definitively GOT over the least two-three years of Titans stories is Omen. Everything else has been a struggle that he continues to improve on even if it's not perfect.

I strongly disagree with this. Abnett is one of the worst writers of Dick's character I've read. Nothing he did made up for how badly he has written Dick since Titans Hunt, and in the Special he continues to write him poorly. Dick is supposed to be very good at reading people, but he couldn't recognize that a woman was scared and chased her into an oncoming train to her death. Next he "stood up" to the JL and I guess this was Abnett's attempt at trying to fix how weak willed and spineless Dick was in Abnett's last arc when it came to the JL, but all that is immediately undercut by the fact the JL still treat him like a teenager, Dick agrees to work under their supervision in the JL Headquarters despite trying to stand up to them, and has no say when the JL puts Miss Martian on his team. All this after the JL continue to talk down to him like a child and throw how he let down and failed his previous team (which still makes no sense) in his face which he puts up no protest against. I understand what Abnett is trying to do, but it is all such a big joke.

Mind, I don't think that Abnett's Dick is perfect. It's far from it. What I said was that he has a better handle in the Special than he did in the run up until then. It's mainly his leadership skills that improved, and his willingness to stand up to the rest of the League. I suspect that the current direction of Titans has to do with editorial interference - and that Ms Martian's entire place on this roster is a result of that, because if it weren't for the babysitter angle I think that she would probably be, instead, Omen - and I also think that you and I have just interpreted storybeats differently here. For instance, I don't take what was said to mean that the League has a leash on the Titans... rather, no, that it means Dick was okay with that so much as he wanted to stand up there with the League, with their approval, but didn't really care if he actually had it or not. He was going to do this regardless. M'Gann being thrown at them is something he didn't want nor expect to happen. And it appears that he is going to hold her and them at arm's length as a result.

I know you have been a big defender of the Titans series, and I have been a big critic of it, but while I think it is a positive step that the Titans finally have a mission statement it is all so poorly constructed. It is like he takes one step forward then two steps back.

I don't exactly disagree with this and I will mention that even by the end of the last volume I wasn't hugely netted by Abnett's run or writing. I didn't think it was bad, but it also wasn't good. The best issue of this run so far has been issue 12.

[Rakiduam]

I really liked the Titans #23 preview running through this weeks books. Far better than the Titans special

It's because of this kind of thinking that we'are not going getting rid of Abnett until he gets bored enough to leave. "The next one is not so bad, I'm sure" His work at Marvel was fantastic, he's a good writer, I tell you "

See, I'm not arguing that Dick and Donna might have been closer. That's something that I largely agree with. When compared to the trinity of the Justice League, it's the Wonder and Bat characters who are the closest and not the Super(Flash) and Bat characters and... that's fine. But to say that they aren't close at all just seems kind of, well, silly, don't you think? I'd prefer if they were all for the most part returned to the relationships that they've had in the past, but to do that the writing would have to be better... which I guess they're slowly getting towards based on the special (which, I know, is a controversial opinion here but I stand by it) and the preview that we've read.

Honestly my hope is that now that Abnett has a better hold on Dick's voice (and he does: I see people saying he's still playing Lapdog to the league but he's not. The special was about him setting his own terms, being his own man and leader, telling the League what he was doing whether they liked it or not, building his own team outside of Miss Martian) that he's going to get to Donna now. I actually think that Donna's alcoholism might lead to us getting something close to how Donna used to be back and it adds an extra nuance to her character: she's not "miss perfect" at the end of this, she's been through personal troubles and troubles that go even beyond that. Kind of like when Ms Marvel (in?)famously had a similar plotline.

Abnett doesn't has hold on Dick's voice. If he was his own men the JL won't even been mentioned in the essue. The league giving Dick what he wants is not the same as independency and IF all that wasn't clear enough there you have Miss martian as a den mother.

An alcoholic Donna is getting us closer to the Donna we used to know? that makess absolutly no sense, then I don't think that add misery translate to "nuance". Also Donna lost her child, doesn't that count as going through personal troubles?

[Harpsikord]

Abnett doesn't has hold on Dick's voice. If he was his own men the JL won't even been mentioned in the essue. The league giving Dick what he wants is not the same as independency and IF all that wasn't clear enough there you have Miss martian as a den mother.

Go read the issue again. Dick wasn't asking for the League's permission, he didn't need them to give him what he wanted. He was going to do it anyway. Now, the League being there at all can be a writing criticism, but it isn't one against Dick's characterization. And as I said, it's not perfect.

An alcoholic Donna is getting us closer to the Donna we used to know? that makess absolutly no sense, then I don't think that add misery translate to "nuance". Also Donna lost her child, doesn't that count as going through personal troubles?

It's a start. It's humanizing a character that hasn't really gotten the development necessary since her reintroduction into canon... as a man hating, genocidal creature made entirely by magic that remains canon. Finding out the truth about herself and having a relationship break down would push one to the brink, and then over the edge. What I was saying is that the Donna that is familiar to us could come out of the other end of this story.

Also, wow: one realistically human story for a character whose defining moment is being brought back to life as a moon goddess and otherwise having a confusing origin story. So many.

I love Donna. She's one of my favorite DC characters. But an arc like this could be very, very good for her.

It could also be very, very bad.

[Rakiduam]

I really liked the Titans #23 preview running through this weeks books. Far better than the Titans special

Go read the issue again. Dick wasn't asking for the League's permission, he didn't need them to give him what he wanted. He was going to do it anyway. Now, the League being there at all can be a writing criticism, but it isn't one against Dick's characterization. And as I said, it's not perfect.



It's a start. It's humanizing a character that hasn't really gotten the development necessary since her reintroduction into canon... as a man hating, genocidal creature made entirely by magic that remains canon. Finding out the truth about herself and having a relationship break down would push one to the brink, and then over the edge. What I was saying is that the Donna that is familiar to us could come out of the other end of this story.

Also, wow: one realistically human story for a character whose defining moment is being brought back to life as a moon goddess and otherwise having a confusing origin story. So many.

I love Donna. She's one of my favorite DC characters. But an arc like this could be very, very good for her.

It could also be very, very bad.

Wait, you really think that if I read it a secound time I would hate it least? Or that all of sudden it's not Dick at the very least explaining himself to his betters. He is not standig up to the League because the League is backing him up, why wouldn't they? Abnett's Dick is a good obedient tool. Nevermind that as you said in the beggining, you are on of the only ones that got this reading everybody else it's reading a Dick the lap dog. Doesn't sound like good writting if no one get it.

I don't want perfect. It would be cool get something close to fun now then though.

The Donna that is familiar to us wasn't an alcoholic, she got a lot of pain and never need it. You think you can enjoy it, well, good for you I think, for me is phatetic that after a more than a year under Abnett, alcholism is the development that is humanizing a character.

[Drakeon]

I dont like how Dick is being written but as for his relationship with Donna, all i can say is things are different in the New 52 and they dont have all of thier memories or have they experienced what they did in the pre flashpoint timeline. So technically they are not as close as they were cause the timeline has changed.

As for Abnett himself he is a good writer on Aquaman but for some reason he was writing the Titans terribly, expecially Dick. Im giving it another chance cause its a new direction.

That and its my only Donna fix.

[Harpsikord]

Wait, you really think that if I read it a secound time I would hate it least? Or that all of sudden it's not Dick at the very least explaining himself to his betters.

No. I think that upon reading the scene again you'd realize the intention behind the scene.

He is not standig up to the League because the League is backing him up, why wouldn't they? Abnett's Dick is a good obedient tool. Nevermind that as you said in the beggining, you are on of the only ones that got this reading everybody else it's reading a Dick the lap dog. Doesn't sound like good writting if no one get it.

... or, more likely, people are inclined to expect the worst of Abnett's Dick. It's written plainly that he was going to do this anyway even if the League didn't want him to because of what happened with the Titans. He didn't care. What happened, more or less, was that - from what we know - the League tricked him into thinking THEY were being entirely altruistic by letting him operate out of the Hall of Justice and backing his plan, allowing him to pick his own team, when they weren't. This is the League's fault, not Dick being badly characterized and especially not as a lapdog. The lapdog here is literally Miss Martian. The scene with the girl in the train wasn't the best, not at all, but him telling the League what was what is the most Grayson that Dick has felt since Abnett has been writing him.

I don't want perfect. It would be cool get something close to fun now then though.

The Donna that is familiar to us wasn't an alcoholic, she got a lot of pain and never need it. You think you can enjoy it, well, good for you I think, for me is phatetic that after a more than a year under Abnett, alcholism is the development that is humanizing a character.

Let new things happen to characters and don't judge the development until it's done. That's the problem with comics and comic fans. Whenever something new is done to a character that you simply disagree with, it's "pathetic." You know what? That is pathetic.

[Rakiduam]

No. I think that upon reading the scene again you'd realize the intention behind the scene.



... or, more likely, people are inclined to expect the worst of Abnett's Dick. It's written plainly that he was going to do this anyway even if the League didn't want him to because of what happened with the Titans. He didn't care. What happened, more or less, was that - from what we know - the League tricked him into thinking THEY were being entirely altruistic by letting him operate out of the Hall of Justice and backing his plan, allowing him to pick his own team, when they weren't. This is the League's fault, not Dick being badly characterized and especially not as a lapdog. The lapdog here is literally Miss Martian. The scene with the girl in the train wasn't the best, not at all, but him telling the League what was what is the most Grayson that Dick has felt since Abnett has been writing him.

Sure that's the readers fault, bad readers! If he didn't care he wouldn't be giving explanations or "the League tricked him... etc" But you know what fine, if for you that's independency, fine. Bay the way the league "tricked him into thinkin" yeah, that's how you treat your equals, it's not patronizing at all and, acording to you, Dick didn't notice it. I think you managed to make me like it even least.

Let new things happen to characters and don't judge the development until it's done. That's the problem with comics and comic fans. Whenever something new is done to a character that you simply disagree with, it's "pathetic." You know what? That is pathetic.

There is also the problem with the comic fans that hope forver, "this time will work", also how do you think alcholism is something new?
Did you miss the whole Arsenal thing, like a big chunk of his develoment these days revolves around that, Abnett used it last arc, but waith, I'm sure this time it would be different. What I hink s phatetic is that has been a YEAR and these it is Abnett's develoment for Donna, dude I think that was the first conversation one on one Donna and Dick had in all this time.

It's phatetic not because it's new for the character or because I disagree with it, but because it's NOT new. You do not like pathetic? Fine, mediocre then, uninspired, worn-out. I would be happy with new things IF they were new. But here we are, after a year with a rehash of Ms Marvel plotline. Fantastic.

[Badou]

See I think it largely comes down to whether you believe someone can have more than one best friend. I don't see Donna claiming that Wally was her best friend meaning that Dick isn't also one of her best friends and in fact I think his 'well, i'm here in the same scene is meant to display the opposite of that even if we haven't explicitly seen that yet. Same for Dick and Wally being best friends which was at least something we did see. I think that largely, Abnett hasn't put the emphasis on Donna that he wants us to think he has; I've said it before and I think the only character that he really definitively GOT over the least two-three years of Titans stories is Omen. Everything else has been a struggle that he continues to improve on even if it's not perfect.

After Dick said "I'm here" when she said her friends are gone Donna did not agree or thank him. She remained silent and looked away implying that she didn't look at him as a friend the same way as Wally or the other Titans. That is what really bothered me about that scene more so than the Wally part. She didn't respond by saying she was glad or happy that Dick is still there for her. She responded by not saying anything. It is basically like saying 'I love you' to someone and they respond by ignoring you. That is the way that scene came across to me.

Mind, I don't think that Abnett's Dick is perfect. It's far from it. What I said was that he has a better handle in the Special than he did in the run up until then. It's mainly his leadership skills that improved, and his willingness to stand up to the rest of the League. I suspect that the current direction of Titans has to do with editorial interference - and that Ms Martian's entire place on this roster is a result of that, because if it weren't for the babysitter angle I think that she would probably be, instead, Omen - and I also think that you and I have just interpreted storybeats differently here. For instance, I don't take what was said to mean that the League has a leash on the Titans... rather, no, that it means Dick was okay with that so much as he wanted to stand up there with the League, with their approval, but didn't really care if he actually had it or not. He was going to do this regardless. M'Gann being thrown at them is something he didn't want nor expect to happen. And it appears that he is going to hold her and them at arm's length as a result.

I'm sure editorial is part of it. Although I'd still lean towards Abnett being the most responsible given how long he has been wiring these characters now, and his fixation with pitting the Titans and League against each other, but Dick shouldn't care about the League's approval or agree to do anything that he isn't comfortable with. Abnett is still writing him like he is concerned with the League when he should be so far removed from caring about it at this point. It is his team and he isn't part of the League so the JL or Batman should have no hold over him. It is the equivalent of Batman telling Dick how he should behave in Bludhaven. He's an adult and they sit there and berate him for his failures and treat him like a child and then he agrees to everything they want him to do basically. That scene were Dick and the rest were walking into the Hall of Justice and all those JL member statues were lording over them was just a joke. Dick has been a hero longer and has more experience than half the JL but he is still looked at as below all of them.

The problem with the concept is that Abnett obviously wants to write the Titans and Dick as standing up for themselves, but all that is immediately undercut by having Dick agree with everything the JL wants. Like was there anything the JL told him to do that he says no to? The league tells him to put Miss Martian on the team and he does. The League tells him he should operate out of the Hall and he does, and that is the core problem. How can they say they are an independent team when they are working under the JL's roof? It is like saying you are an independent adult but you still live your parents. It doesn't work.

The only way this concept works is if Dick and the rest are all teenagers and the League trying to look over the Titans would make sense. Basically like how the YJ show turned them into a JL farm team, but that isn't the case here. The other way would be if Dick and the rest were all JL members. Like full JL members and one of Dick's responsibilities for the JL is to uses the Titans as a team to train young heroes. That way them being JL members would actually give the League some authority over Dick. Since if Dick wants to operate out of the Hall, use the JL's resources, and continue to be a JL member he would need to make some sacrifices to his team or the way he operates that the JL wants him to, like adding a Miss Martian despite not wanting her. Right now Dick has no responsibility to the JL but he still goes along with what they say and is working for them. There is just a disconnect there.

[adrikito]

In Glass twitter:

About TT special:

I got a chance to review your Teen Titans Special #1 today for @ComicBookCorps and I gotta tell you that I loved it! Finally, a thoughtful and accurate portrait of Damian Wayne, much like @PeterJTomasi during New 52 Batman and Robin.

The guys at @WeirdScienceDC have a big following and they love when Damian Wayne is done right too! Emiko's story really tugs at the heartstrings too. The Kid Flash story, relationship wise made me think of Flash War. Great book from start to finish

https://twitter.com/sarbz/status/1010711160717389824

And more:

To celebrate the release of Teen Titans Special #1 we are having a signing with @AdamGlass44 on June 30th from 2:00-4:00PM!

https://twitter.com/universalTFAW/st...52433220558848

[Rac7d*]

the view counts on some of the TT clips
the world is thristy


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[byrd156]

I feel that the reason the Titans are being pushed around like this is to make the book a close jumping on point for when Young Justice comes back. That way fans who are familiar with that show can understand the premise, certain characters, etc. I wouldn't have a problem with it if the characters weren't getting shafted.

[Thirteen]

If nothing else, TITANS SPECIAL #1 has me thirsty for a Nicola Scott art run on a (non-Teen) TITANS book. She really gets it on the page here! Much better than her Convergence work with the characters. And her reverence for Dick Grayson's are is LEGENDARY.
I'd overlook weaker writing for the strength of her art.
Attachment 67443

[skyvolt2000]

I feel that the reason the Titans are being pushed around like this is to make the book a close jumping on point for when Young Justice comes back. That way fans who are familiar with that show can understand the premise, certain characters, etc. I wouldn't have a problem with it if the characters weren't getting shafted.

What good will that do when you have an entirely different roster?

What do you tell the person who sees Static, Conner, Bart and the rest who DC screwed over and wants to see them and NOT this team?

Just more money DC is willing to toss away.

[Godlike13]

Ya, cause that was the shows core roster...