Titans Together! Teen Titans Appreciation

[Dred]

Swords, axes and arrows are used to cause harm and death as well.

I think you either didn't comprehend my post or willfully ignored it. I thought my phrasing made it expressly clear how a sword is expressly and intentionally different from these tools, not how it is the same.

The only point of a sword's invention is to murder other humans. Axes chop wood, Bows and arrows hunt game. No one takes a sword in the woods. Swords are literally and symbolically implements of murder and war. Other weapons can be used similarly but they aren't purpose designed with only how well they kill people in mind.

Regardless, the entire point is that the Sword isn't what the Lasso is.

[Agent Z]

I think you either didn't comprehend my post or willfully ignored it. I thought my phrasing made it expressly clear how a sword is expressly and intentionally different from these tools, not how it is the same.

The only point of a sword's invention is to murder other humans. Axes chop wood, Bows and arrows hunt game. No one takes a sword in the woods. Swords are literally and symbolically implements of murder and war. Other weapons can be used similarly but they aren't purpose designed with only how well they kill people in mind.

Regardless, the entire point is that the Sword isn't what the Lasso is.

Axes are used in battle as well and if an axe appears in a superhero comic it isn't likely to be used to chop wood. Hunting involves killing things and bows and arrows cause harm in that regard.

Yes a sword has lethal applications but it can also be used in self defense or defense of others even if that defense will end in the attacker's death. When to use it is the problem not the fact that it is used at all.

[Dred]

Your problem is that you don't understand the role of Warrior/Soldier. You can't get peace without fighting. You can't defend without being able to fight. Your big mistake is thinking that real warriors go looking for a fights.



I pretty sure Marston love of Bondage is why he gave her the lasso.


Anyways on topic I wonder how long Kyle Rayner will be on Titans. This is right type of move for the book I think you need a mix of star power (Nightwing, Kyle Rayner,etc) and smaller names is the best idea

You can get peace without fighting. Diplomacy exists. This farcical idea that war is necessary for peace is absurd. War is only necessary to take what others have or to eliminate those you don't like. Bridging differences and improving the lives of everyone so these don't exist prevents war far better than a sword ever will, and those are Wonder Woman's ideals.

And sure, give it whatever dismissive tone you want but Marston was also a hyper-feminist, especially for his day and age, and he put those themes in for more than just his own jollies. He was a much more imaginative writer than that.

Axes are used in battle as well and if an axe appears in a superhero comic it isn't likely to be used to chop wood. Hunting involves killing things and bows and arrows cause harm in that regard.

Yes a sword has lethal applications but it can also be used in self defense or defense of others even if that defense will end in the attacker's death. When to use it is the problem not the fact that it is used at all.

Dude, are you listening to me? Yes, I know axes can be used in combat. I said literally as much in my first post -- I was intentionally listing tools of war besides swords for a reason. I was pointing out how the Axe's origin is for felling wood, even if its efficacy of striking hard with a cutting edge made it suitable for war. I intentionally said the words murder and "cause harm and death to people". An axe, symbolically, stands for a woodsman. A Bow and Arrow symbolize a hunter first and foremost.

A sword's use in self defense is to kill another person. A sword's use in defending others is to kill the other person. And yes, a sword can technically be used for good but that is not my point. It's about symbolism, it's about narrative ideals. Wonder Woman's ideals and narrative core are the exact opposite of what a sword represents unless, of course, you think Wonder Woman's core ideals are killing and war.

TECHNICALLY, a lasso can be used to strangle someone, or draw and quarter them, or whatever other corner case scenario you want to throw at me. But we're talking about fiction and in fiction what it represents is much more important than you and me sitting here conjuring scenarios. It's why I spoke symbolically. A sword is a terrible weapon for stopping someone peaceably, which I find ill-fitting for a character who's core tenets includes peace.

Please, tell me you understand me. Even if you don't agree with me and think it's better for Wonder Woman to symbolize a warrior first and use a sword, please tell me you at least see what I'm saying and why I'm saying it. I seriously don't want to repeat myself again.

[kjn]

We just had a discussion regarding the sword versus the lasso over in the Wonder Woman forum, if you want to continue the discussion without cluttering up this thread.

[Dred]

Well it's kind of tangentially related to Donna's depiction. Basically anything I've said here, apply it to how Donna's been displayed since she returned in the New 52.

Though I guess I now realize that this same guy just repeated himself in two different threads and didn't get the point either time. Go figure.

[Agent Z]

You can get peace without fighting. Diplomacy exists. This farcical idea that war is necessary for peace is absurd. War is only necessary to take what others have or to eliminate those you don't like. Bridging differences and improving the lives of everyone so these don't exist prevents war far better than a sword ever will, and those are Wonder Woman's ideals.

And sure, give it whatever dismissive tone you want but Marston was also a hyper-feminist, especially for his day and age, and he put those themes in for more than just his own jollies. He was a much more imaginative writer than that.



Dude, are you listening to me? Yes, I know axes can be used in combat. I said literally as much in my first post -- I was intentionally listing tools of war besides swords for a reason. I was pointing out how the Axe's origin is for felling wood, even if its efficacy of striking hard with a cutting edge made it suitable for war. I intentionally said the words murder and "cause harm and death to people". An axe, symbolically, stands for a woodsman. A Bow and Arrow symbolize a hunter first and foremost.

A sword's use in self defense is to kill another person. A sword's use in defending others is to kill the other person. And yes, a sword can technically be used for good but that is not my point. It's about symbolism, it's about narrative ideals. Wonder Woman's ideals and narrative core are the exact opposite of what a sword represents unless, of course, you think Wonder Woman's core ideals are killing and war.

TECHNICALLY, a lasso can be used to strangle someone, or draw and quarter them, or whatever other corner case scenario you want to throw at me. But we're talking about fiction and in fiction what it represents is much more important than you and me sitting here conjuring scenarios. It's why I spoke symbolically. A sword is a terrible weapon for stopping someone peaceably, which I find ill-fitting for a character who's core tenets includes peace.

Please, tell me you understand me. Even if you don't agree with me and think it's better for Wonder Woman to symbolize a warrior first and use a sword, please tell me you at least see what I'm saying and why I'm saying it. I seriously don't want to repeat myself again.

I understand what you are saying just fine. I disagree with it because I feel your argument is too narrow minded. Symbolism doesn’t occur in a vacuum and in many cases is contextual. No one is going to see Diana brandishing an axe and think she’s going to chop wood. Bows and arrows are as synonymous with war as they are with hunting, arguably moreso. The DCEU repeatedly showed with a sword and yet she was seen as no less herioc and compassionate than any other character who used a sword.

[Digifiend]

Anyways on topic I wonder how long Kyle Rayner will be on Titans. This is right type of move for the book I think you need a mix of star power (Nightwing, Kyle Rayner,etc) and smaller names is the best idea

I'd say about a year - until the next relaunch post-Doomsday Clock.

[byrd156]

I understand what you are saying just fine. I disagree with it because I feel your argument is too narrow minded. Symbolism doesn’t occur in a vacuum and in many cases is contextual. No one is going to see Diana brandishing an axe and think she’s going to chop wood. Bows and arrows are as synonymous with war as they are with hunting, arguably moreso. The DCEU repeatedly showed with a sword and yet she was seen as no less herioc and compassionate than any other character who used a sword.

How is it narrow minded? He's not saying those can't be options just that a lasso makes the most sense for the character.

[Agent Z]

How is it narrow minded? He's not saying those can't be options just that a lasso makes the most sense for the character.

Read his comments. He's flat out stated he sees the sword as only a tool of war and murder and unsuitable for any of the Wonder characters.

[byrd156]

Read his comments. He's flat out stated he sees the sword as only a tool of war and murder and unsuitable for any of the Wonder characters.

Sure, I see swords that was as well (in terms of Wonder Woman characters) and agree with his statements. Someone like Katana I think it's fine because it's tied to her character and it's in the name. But a superhero can use a sword without killing. See any kid show that has a hero with a blade. (GI Joe, TMNT, BtB, etc.)

I feel that they move away from the core of Wonder Woman's character and by extension Donna to tie it back into Titans. You don't, cool but I see don't see how it's narrow minded. He stated a case against the sword that was well thought out and explains how a sword can negatively effect the message of the character. I've seen her in stories with a sword and those without, does this detail make or break the story? No, like I stated earlier in another thread (I think it was this thread) the surface level details of a character don't make or break characters but they do compliment them. Those details should inform and tell the audience all about them just by looking and I think the sword sends the wrong message. Is her having it so important when she already has a weapon that is visually unique and unique to her character?

[kjn]

Can Donna use a sword? Quite possible, and if she uses it I expect her to be really good at it. Not as good as Diana or Artemis or Katana, but she'd likely trounce Nightwing in a fight.

But does it make sense for her character? To me, Donna is much more about trying to fit into Man's World than Diana or Cassie is, and a sword removes her from that goal. In a way, carrying a sword by itself brings her the worst of two worlds. A one-handed sword by itself is inferior to dedicated weapons of war like polearms or spears, but it makes her stick out just as much in today's world.

[Godlike13]

Ooh, how about Donna as a war photojournalist.

[byrd156]

Ohh, how about Donna as a war photojournalist.

I mentioned that earlier, I think it would be better than model photography.

[Last Son of Krypton]

[WallyWestFlash]

So now Batman is a villain and Dick has to stop him?

All right , this is now 100% an Elseworld story to me.