Moira or Beast.....who got character assassinated the worst in the Krakoa era?

[The Cool Thatguy]

This is not a fridging and I wish Gail Simone never came up with the term given what it turned into. No male character was propped up because of it, and Charles/Mag’a hubris with sitting out Moira was actively part of the plot and not taken for granted. If anything, Banshe was WAY more fridged than Moira ever was. Sorry if it seems I’m singling you out but I am way burned out on half baked gender arguments in pop culture.

I agree that a lot of character relationships were ignored for plot but Matt fractions run conditioned for me that, I guess. love old school Moira, and I thought Moira 2.0 was the most interesting thing to come out of the xbooks since AOA, but the retcon adds more than it took away; the wtf nature heelturn falls on Percy’s lap for poor execution. Moira 2.0 was all about trying whatever she hadn’t before, so the android stuff clicked when it was made more clear siding with AI was the next (last?) frontier. If ever a problematic social movement metaphor …

Beasts has been a douche for 20 years strong: my main grip was the beast/logan thing had already been better picked apart when it was called schism with Logan and Scott.

Fridging is the absolutely perfect term for Moira's treatment.

Her character was gutted for the benefit of Mags and Charles. She never received any credit whatsoever for helping found the island, though we're supposed to believe that she was vital and is never granted any sympathetic treatment.

[Mungho]

Beasts has been a douche for 20 years strong: my main grip was the beast/logan thing had already been better picked apart when it was called schism with Logan and Scott.

He has NOT been that way that long. 2012 and bringing the O5 to the present was the start of his true decline, and even then as the Krakoan era dawned there was nothing he couldn't walk back from.

[DarkMagnus]

Moira Beast actions are way after Krakoa

[Captain Nash]

Moira. Beast definitely had a lot of extreme moments but his downward spiral has been going on for some time. I mean, UXM #600 was called the Trial of Hank McCoy - granted that was BMB's usual overhype, but the fact the title was used at all backs up the fact Beast had already been doing questionable things far before Krakoa.

Moira thought went from (deceased) human ally to reality resetting mutant integral to Krakoa's creation (which I thought was actually interesting) to human/cyborg, anti-mutant (and possibly anti-human) with genocidal intentions. The path of that that happened was shown at least, but it was still crappy writing. Inferno began that process but it was only with the X Lives and Deaths of Wolverine that solidified her completely personality shift.

[MythicalChicken]

Fridging is the absolutely perfect term for Moira's treatment.

Her character was gutted for the benefit of Mags and Charles. She never received any credit whatsoever for helping found the island, though we're supposed to believe that she was vital and is never granted any sympathetic treatment.

I'll need to reread but by my recollection it was her suggestion she remain the shadow partner. Otherwise, fridging works -- given the OG green lantern example -- when it's more implicit, or just taken for granted. It was explicit Charles and Mags were being douches to Moira, and they suffered the consequences pretty quickly.

Poor Banshee was a better fridge recipient if anyone, and even then ... something bad happening to a character female or otherwise != fridging, sorry.

[whitecrown]

Actually, Quesada's the one that said way back around Utopia that plot sell stories and not characters when fans wanted them to be more character driven. It didn't matter if what the character was doing didn't make sense or even the dramatic changes in personalities from from run to run . :-/

He really said that? I didn't think he could become more vile but I'm always proven wrong. Never understood how this awful artist and hack individual got to be in charge. So unqualified and responsible for every major mess in Marvel.

No wonder Hickman thrived under his leadership.

[MyriVerse]

Moira, and her biggest assassination was making her a mutant and so important to everything. Dump everything Hickman has ever done for Marvel. SHIELD, FF, Avengers, the Multiverse/Secret Wars, X-Men. All of it.

[From The Shadows]

He really said that? I didn't think he could become more vile but I'm always proven wrong. Never understood how this awful artist and hack individual got to be in charge. So unqualified and responsible for every major mess in Marvel.

No wonder Hickman thrived under his leadership.

Yes. He did. Pretty bold. But he really didn't care what others thoughts or how he treated fans.

He has NOT been that way that long. 2012 and bringing the O5 to the present was the start of his true decline, and even then as the Krakoan era dawned there was nothing he couldn't walk back from.

I don't know. People have been complaining about Hank being an evil dick as far back as Utopia. I just blamed the writers at the time wanting to make everything dark and edgy. Marvel was even saying "This isn't your parents Marvel anymore." Lol.

Plot and character should work hand in hand. If the characterization of one, um, character doesn't fit the plot, you have 2 choices. Either use a different character who DOES fit, or weave a reason for a shift in characterization into the story that makes sense.

Option 3, throwing out established character to just do what you want, is how we get bad comics. Very, very bad comics that make people decide to never buy anything by a specific writer ever again

Very much agreed.

[whitecrown]

Moira, and her biggest assassination was making her a mutant and so important to everything. Dump everything Hickman has ever done for Marvel. SHIELD, FF, Avengers, the Multiverse/Secret Wars, X-Men. All of it.

Thank you for this. I agree. I have not been a fan of any of his work. I used to like his FF until I realized how pretentious a writer he really is and basically does the same thing in every project.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Thank you for this. I agree. I have not been a fan of any of his work. I used to like his FF until I realized how pretentious a writer he really is and basically does the same thing in every project.

Hickman wants the credit for big ideas, but he doesn't want to do the work. He's like a big ideas Bendis, like that.

I mean, can anyone tell me how Moira is responsible for the island nation? What part of her past canon did he use that we see expanded?

Or was she simply chosen because of her established connection to Chuck? Thus allowing Hickman to imply that all of X-canon was a long game until now? To rob the franchise of agency until his 'big idea' lands?

[Galen Nycroft]

Hickman wants the credit for big ideas, but he doesn't want to do the work. He's like a big ideas Bendis, like that.

I mean, can anyone tell me how Moira is responsible for the island nation? What part of her past canon did he use that we see expanded?

Or was she simply chosen because of her established connection to Chuck? Thus allowing Hickman to imply that all of X-canon was a long game until now? To rob the franchise of agency until his 'big idea' lands?

But his big idea did land, in the form of sales, and a renewed interest in the X-Men comics. He moved books, and got lapsed fans back reading the X-Men. You preferences are your preferences, but Hickman's "big ideas" generate sales. He left the X-Men comics in a healthy state after Inferno, but the books failed shortly after due to perhaps some of the the worst writers since Chuck Austen taking over the books and trying to play with Hickman's ideas.

True, we could have seen more exposition about how Moira started the Krakoan nation. At the end of Rosenberg's X-Men run, Emma Frost sort of erased mutants from existence in the minds of folks. Then supposedly 3 - 6 months passed, and then we got Krakoa. Would have been nice to see what happened in that 6 month span.

When Hickman left, the books suffered, sales dropped, and many longtime traditional X-Men fans bailed...and so we have to reboot everything AGAIN.

[Coatl]

Moira, all the way, with her was like 0 to 100 using a lot of retcons to make her look bad. Hank had slowly slipping down from fan favorite to slightly annoying to really annoying to slightly evil to now, over the last decades, dosen't feel so rushed and surrounded of mutants like Sinester and Apocalypse dosen't sound so strange.

[ARkadelphia]

i wonder if it's because they feel like everyone evil is smarter than they are?>

You must be evil to be smarter than I am

[marhawkman]

Moira, all the way, with her was like 0 to 100 using a lot of retcons to make her look bad. Hank had slowly slipping down from fan favorite to slightly annoying to really annoying to slightly evil to now, over the last decades, dosen't feel so rushed and surrounded of mutants like Sinester and Apocalypse dosen't sound so strange.

And in the case of Karima.... Karima's never actually been evil. It's always stuff like "the Sentinel programming made me do it!" Which is a lame recurring plot device but at least it's consistent.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah. That's two women stripped of agency and made into plot devises. Not great