Moira or Beast.....who got character assassinated the worst in the Krakoa era?

[Mungho]

That's a shame but doesn't surprise me that he's being treated this way. This is why I'd be a proponent for a retcon that this Hank was always another AU version like another Dark Beast or brainwashed to absolve him. Seeing the UXM variant covers though make me wish that Hank was a part of that team instead.

Wow, I heard awful things about Percy but it's a new low that he implied Hank has always been evil. I hope that gets completely ignored by future writers. Another reason we need a retcon pronto.

In an interview from fairly early in X-Force, Percy responded to fan complaints that 'people who say Beast is lovable have only read a few comics'. In which I'd respond 'I'd say that of you'. Percy only knows how to write shock value and gore, characterization be damned.

Percy kept teasing explanations for Beast's behavior that were never followed up on. First it was this might not be the real Beast, no, he's being controlled, no, he's been driven insane from his traumas, no, he's just always been evil.

I'm really hoping they go with that theory that he was switched with an AU version starting about 2012. Is that what you were referring to? .

[MythicalChicken]

Everything that Hackman did goes against 60 years of publication history.

Well, not *everything*

I'm not a Hickman fan honestly, but I love what he did for the x-books in general (for all his faults). As for Moira, it explains something I've wondered since my teens: how on earth was she a human who got the legacy virus, and also coincidentally the only human? That she was secretly a mutant all along is the only thing that makes sense.

Moreso, Claremont originally introduced her as a housekeeper who just-so-happened to be very comfortably with assault weapons. Duplicity was built into the character day one. But in general I love Moira for being one of the best supporting characters in the books, and the only good thing to come out of post-Alan Davis Excalibur.

I think of *this* Moira like Magick 2.0 in the Utopia years.

[whitecrown]

In an interview from fairly early in X-Force, Percy responded to fan complaints that 'people who say Beast is lovable have only read a few comics'. In which I'd respond 'I'd say that of you'. Percy only knows how to write shock value and gore, characterization be damned.

Percy kept teasing explanations for Beast's behavior that were never followed up on. First it was this might not be the real Beast, no, he's being controlled, no, he's been driven insane from his traumas, no, he's just always been evil.

I'm really hoping they go with that theory that he was switched with an AU version starting about 2012. Is that what you were referring to? .

That's insane. Has he ever actually read the character? Even if not in the X-Men, then in the Avengers where he's even less prone to this character assassination? Percy's mentality doesn't seem that far off from the other current X-Writers of the Krakoa era, even if he embodies the worst traits.

It sounds like he has an axe to grind with Hank if he kept baiting fans with different explanations which never pan out. Although I can't for the life of me figure out what could possibly make someone hate Hank?

Yes, Hank being swapped out by an AU version is the cleanest way to retcon all of this. And it has precedent since Dark Beast replaced him for a time in the 90s.

[Mungho]

That's insane. Has he ever actually read the character? Even if not in the X-Men, then in the Avengers where he's even less prone to this character assassination? Percy's mentality doesn't seem that far off from the other current X-Writers of the Krakoa era, even if he embodies the worst traits.

It sounds like he has an axe to grind with Hank if he kept baiting fans with different explanations which never pan out. Although I can't for the life of me figure out what could possibly make someone hate Hank?

Yes, Hank being swapped out by an AU version is the cleanest way to retcon all of this. And it has precedent since Dark Beast replaced him for a time in the 90s.

Here's the link to the interview: https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...benjamin-percy

But I'll just quote the relevant part:

Interviewer: There's been some level of controversy with fans predating X-FORCE about the portrayal of Beast as not the lovable character some people are traditionally used to, but more of a shades of grey type. It seems you have leaned into this. Why do you think this Beast works for this story?

Percy: Beast is canonically sketchy. Those who say he’s lovable have only read a select few X-Men comics. If you’re the director of intelligence at the CIA (even a fantasy version of such), you’re going to be making some morally dubious decisions. He has a utilitarian code—or so he tells himself—that he’ll do whatever it takes to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number of mutants. But hubris often warps his vision, and you might notice that he’s gradually become more physically grotesque to match the troubles roiling inside him.

Will there be a reckoning? Stay tuned.

Let me just say that I knew exactly where this story would end when I began it, and that hinges on Beast.

As for why he did this, I don't know. But, I have noticed that in recent years, smart characters in the MU tend to get villain-batted (though I believe Beast's is the worst).
Come to think of it, I've never read that he talked about Moira.

[marhawkman]

i wonder if it's because they feel like everyone evil is smarter than they are?>

[Galen Nycroft]

An alt universe/timeline version of Rahne was in the same with two building as two Moiras in issues 3 and 4 of Dead X-men but didn't get to exchange a single world with either of them. I was bummed.

Ooh, I missed that. Will have to get out my Dead X-Men again...at least I can see Rahne and a Moira in the same panel. Thx.

[whitecrown]

Here's the link to the interview: https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...benjamin-percy

But I'll just quote the relevant part:



As for why he did this, I don't know. But, I have noticed that in recent years, smart characters in the MU tend to get villain-batted (though I believe Beast's is the worst).
Come to think of it, I've never read that he talked about Moira.

I love how he avoids all controversy by attacking readers and claiming the fault lies with them for not being well-read and not understanding the character the way apparently only he does. I'd love to see what X-Men comics he read where he got his interpretation and where Beast was the director of the CIA before X-Force.

Reed Richards got this treatment in the 2000s but way scaled down. Nothing as bad as this although he also became controversial.

[The Cool Thatguy]

An alt universe/timeline version of Rahne was in the same with two building as two Moiras in issues 3 and 4 of Dead X-men but didn't get to exchange a single world with either of them. I was bummed.

I'm not.

Had they interacted, no doubt Moira would have revealed some evil motivation for adopting Rahne.

"I only wanted you so I had a puppy to kick!"

At least Hank got to be a hero concerned with mutantkind.

Moira?

Her character was stripped down for parts. If she was a car, Moira would only be a rusty chassis compared to her old, sports car self. Her characterization was shredded and has been treated as a selfish sociopath for most of her return.

Frankly, as I've said elsewhere, it stinks of tribalism. It's a fridging rare in epic scale.

Has Moira been treated with sympathy once since her return?

She was made a mutant only to be made a Judas. I'm hard pressed to think of a worse treated X-character.

[mattsarchamp]

It's painfully Moira. Having her to be a respected ally to the X-Men and their cause turned to be so hateful to the mutants has been so hard for me. Though, I think she will get redeemed maybe in the end of this era.

[Mungho]

At least Hank got to be a hero concerned with mutantkind.

Hero?!?! Almost every one of his friends hate him now, though it's not mentioned how the average mutant feels about him.

Her character was stripped down for parts. If she was a car, Moira would only be a rusty chassis compared to her old, sports car self. Her characterization was shredded and has been treated as a selfish sociopath for most of her return.

I can agree with that comparison. I suppose if we made a similar comparison to Beast, he'd be a Ford Pinto now?

Frankly, as I've said elsewhere, it stinks of tribalism. It's a fridging rare in epic scale.

It seems like fridging is still a problem in modern comics despite it's sexism. Remember Colossus' girlfriend, whose only purpose was to be brutally murdered by him while he was being controlled to give him more to angst about?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hero?!?! Almost every one of his friends hate him now, though it's not mentioned how the average mutant feels about him.

True, but his actions were meant to defend mutant kind.

Moira's actions were only selfish, meant to avenge her ego.

[From The Shadows]

I'm not, I'd have been more surprised if they had acknowledged it because the Krakoa era doesn't care about personal relationships like this to humanize the X-Men. It's all about putting the characters through the plot. Same reason why Mystique and Rogue have had no contact.

Actually, Quesada's the one that said way back around Utopia that plot sell stories and not characters when fans wanted them to be more character driven. It didn't matter if what the character was doing didn't make sense or even the dramatic changes in personalities from from run to run . :-/

[MythicalChicken]

Hero?!?! Almost every one of his friends hate him now, though it's not mentioned how the average mutant feels about him.



I can agree with that comparison. I suppose if we made a similar comparison to Beast, he'd be a Ford Pinto now?



It seems like fridging is still a problem in modern comics despite it's sexism. Remember Colossus' girlfriend, whose only purpose was to be brutally murdered by him while he was being controlled to give him more to angst about?

This is not a fridging and I wish Gail Simone never came up with the term given what it turned into. No male character was propped up because of it, and Charles/Mag’a hubris with sitting out Moira was actively part of the plot and not taken for granted. If anything, Banshe was WAY more fridged than Moira ever was. Sorry if it seems I’m singling you out but I am way burned out on half baked gender arguments in pop culture.

I agree that a lot of character relationships were ignored for plot but Matt fractions run conditioned for me that, I guess. love old school Moira, and I thought Moira 2.0 was the most interesting thing to come out of the xbooks since AOA, but the retcon adds more than it took away; the wtf nature heelturn falls on Percy’s lap for poor execution. Moira 2.0 was all about trying whatever she hadn’t before, so the android stuff clicked when it was made more clear siding with AI was the next (last?) frontier. If ever a problematic social movement metaphor …

Beasts has been a douche for 20 years strong: my main grip was the beast/logan thing had already been better picked apart when it was called schism with Logan and Scott.

[From The Shadows]

I went with Beast. Noone can top his character assassination.

[Gray Lensman]

Actually, Quesada's the one that said way back around Utopia that plot sell stories and not characters when fans wanted them to be more character driven. It didn't matter if what the character was doing didn't make sense or even the dramatic changes in personalities from from run to run . :-/

Plot and character should work hand in hand. If the characterization of one, um, character doesn't fit the plot, you have 2 choices. Either use a different character who DOES fit, or weave a reason for a shift in characterization into the story that makes sense.

Option 3, throwing out established character to just do what you want, is how we get bad comics. Very, very bad comics that make people decide to never buy anything by a specific writer ever again