IMPERIUS REX! Namor Appreciation

[Cmbmool]

I was good up until near the end. They will not let that trope die. Lol. Might as well separate Namor from Atlantis altogether. Aaron has been doing it with Thor for a while now And it seems to work. And the writing is kinda weak.

Yeah both Namor and Thor with no kingdoms to call their own as outside influences destroy it via Aaron's writing.

I don't think there is anyway for Namor to come back from this given despite Stingray's lack of appearance until recently he was still a former Avenger and friend of Namor. Right ?

[Prof. Warren]

Yeah both Namor and Thor with no kingdoms to call their own as outside influences destroy it via Aaron's writing.

I don't think there is anyway for Namor to come back from this given despite Stingray's lack of appearance until recently he was still a former Avenger and friend of Namor. Right ?

Have people who proclaim "______________ can never come back from ____________!" ever read comics?

There is always a way back from death or even the most extreme heel turn, no matter how permanent either situation may look. Always.

[Cville]

Yeah both Namor and Thor with no kingdoms to call their own as outside influences destroy it via Aaron's writing.

I don't think there is anyway for Namor to come back from this given despite Stingray's lack of appearance until recently he was still a former Avenger and friend of Namor. Right ?

I prefer A-hole Namor. It's more fun. If Aaron keeps this defenders team going as a anti-hero squad I'll keep an eye on it. "Sun Pirates" for the win. Lol

[DragonsChi]

I don't think Aaron is playing Namor as a villain so much as presenting him as a threat and there's a difference.

Aaron shows Namor to have an understandable sense of rage. He's reached his tipping point. All he ever hears from the surface world are empty platitudes and yet his people still endure fresh suffering.

From his point of view, what he's doing is right, not evil or villainous.

Namor has always been a lot of talk and little action. For such a tough guy, he gets walked over a lot. And the excuse for that is, well, he's just too noble to go there and cross too many lines.

As a result, whenever his anger towards the surface world has flared up, everybody knows it's just a lot of empty bluster.

If Aaron wants to change that perception, I think it's a good thing for Namor. This is a guy who even the toughest characters should be sh*tting themselves over, not just humoring his tantrums because they know that, at the end of the day, he's just going to go back to playing nice.

The bold is false, he has only being presented that way in recent times. To add further the real/old Namor would never kill anyone for not agreeing with him or joining his side. He for sure would never let someone or something else do his dirty work for him. If Namor intends to kill someone he would do it with his bare hands and leave his subjects out of it.

[pageturner]

Namor can't really got to war with the surface he does not have the numbers he can become a hit squad taking out some foes.

His murder of Stingray does put him in the villain category, unless that is undone somehow.

I assume this version is short term with Defenders 1001.0 in the future.

[stingray]

Namor can't really got to war with the surface he does not have the numbers he can become a hit squad taking out some foes.

His murder of Stingray does put him in the villain category, unless that is undone somehow.

I assume this version is short term with Defenders 1001.0 in the future.

Yeah, it was always funny to me that in the old Sub-Mariner series, Namor would declare war on the entire surface world and seemed to only have a couple hundred soldiers with him. The Stingray thing really bothers me. This was a friend who took Namor's side through thick and thin, and then he turns him down this time and gets murdered. It would have made more sense for him to say something like "If you're not on my side with this, from now on when we meet, it will be as enemies". Tiger Shark is the one who killed Namor's Dad, so recruiting him also seems a bit off. Hopefully there's something more going on here.

[Mantis Dad]

True, the story was weird. But overall, Namor was a bad ass. More awesome Namor, and less killing of old friends. 4 out of 5 stars for my first issue of this new Avengers comics.

[DragonsChi]

Namor can't really got to war with the surface he does not have the numbers he can become a hit squad taking out some foes.

His murder of Stingray does put him in the villain category, unless that is undone somehow.

I assume this version is short term with Defenders 1001.0 in the future.

It's been shown a few times (not many) that Atlantis is more of the capital city of ocean.(70% of the earth) There is suppose to be other undersea people, who still claim to be Atlanteans, who have spread out and colonized other parts of the ocean. However, they still fall under Namors rule if need be while still remaining a "free" society.

The last time that plot point was mentioned however, was in Fractions Defenders title. (At least from what I know/remember. Someone correct me if I am wrong.)

Even, still though by enlarge people do not recall the times Namor has directed sea life or spoken to them he has always been able to do so. That means he has an entire ocean of solider's at his disposal before you even get to the humanoids. Those range from sea monsters to jelly fish. However, in saying that for the majority of Namor's characterization he would rather put himself in harms way or as the target then let any of his subjects, be they animal or humanoid, in harms way. This is impart because in most instances Namor could wage a war single handedly even before he called in his forces of the deep.

I will admit if Aaron can remind people of those aspects about Namor he will have done at least somethings right. The standing toe to toe with the Avengers underwater is just him reestablishing Namors old levels of power, which is something by enlarge only rumble board fans truly get pumped about. How he was depicted in Avengers #9 in regards to his power is what it should have always been based on all of his previous depictions before the late 90's early 00's ear. Which is in part why I am far more concern with his own going characterization. Namor acting with justified reasons while still holding on to his nobility.

When you write Namor you have to feel the pain he holds within his decisive action or at the very least his rage. If you write a story for pure shock value with Namor you have failed not only the character but yourself as a writer.

[Thor-El]

Im going to get this off my chest and then be done with it.....

Writers today do not understand or seem to care to understand Namor. They would rather him be this one note villain then the complex character, with a sever duel nature that makes you question who is right and who is wrong, as he has been in the past. The current Avengers depiction of Namor is by far the most extreme deviation I have seen of Namor in a very long time. The current Marvel teams apl seem content on giving readers surface level trash and then expect us to be happy about it and really to say the least I am really about done with it. My pull list is literally down to one book and that is barely holding on as is.

Namor is more and can be more than an under water war lord and Atlantis can be more than just the city that gets blown up when you need to insert big drama. New Flash Marvel when you blow up a fictional city every time you bother to visit it, the drama is no longer there and it is not impresive. When you play a character as just a villian without showing the character emotional depth or the people he is standing up for (thinking bystandards, children, ordinary Atlanteans) and only show them seeking vengance and blood you create a monster to be slain. Not a character to be rooted for or take interest in. So thank you Aaron and Marvel for once again butchering your first hero and another classic marvel character.

Well said! Very, very sad. That scene destroys Namor, the hero for anyone with an inch of sensibility. That the character is presented as a badass able to take on one of the most powerful Avengers teams in history by himself seems to get some fans excited and brushing off what Namor just did and that upsets me. That doesn't offsets the horrible damage that first scene does to Namor! Who can root for a character that kills a friend in such a cold and cruel way? Not me. He continued pummeling Stingray off camera and when his friend pleads for mercy calling him by his first name "Namor...please..." he didn't have any, and in the most despicable and cruelest of ways sends the sharks to devour him. Stingray was on a honeymoon cruise with his wife who by the way is another long standing friend and supporting cast of Namor's. Terrible, terrible scene that doesn't has to do anything with the way the character was written during the silver age which will always be the real character to me!

Sorry for the rant but I feel there was so much potential to write an awesome Namor here and all gets wrecked by the need to shock the readers.

[Reviresco]

Yes. I read Avengers 9 and had to commiserate with fellow Namor fans.

The murder of Stingray is completely wrong. It is something Namor absolutely would not do. That said, I think there's more going on in this issue than just character assassination.

i woudl imagine namor fans will love Avengers today

As a Namor fan, it is always good to see him in print. And at least get some nice covers. However, it is not good to see him badly written or trashed or abused (even killed) for other characters.

That said, it was nice to see someone remember that Namor IS supposed to be supreme underwater.

I was good up until near the end. They will not let that trope die. Lol. Might as well separate Namor from Atlantis altogether. Aaron has been doing it with Thor for a while now And it seems to work. And the writing is kinda weak.

I agree with that. Atlantis had JUST been rebuilt -- though that was another bit of awful writing also. It is beyond trite.

Im going to get this off my chest and then be done with it.....

Writers today do not understand or seem to care to understand Namor. They would rather him be this one note villain then the complex character, with a sever duel nature that makes you question who is right and who is wrong, as he has been in the past. The current Avengers depiction of Namor is by far the most extreme deviation I have seen of Namor in a very long time. The current Marvel teams apl seem content on giving readers surface level trash and then expect us to be happy about it and really to say the least I am really about done with it. My pull list is literally down to one book and that is barely holding on as is.

Namor is more and can be more than an under water war lord and Atlantis can be more than just the city that gets blown up when you need to insert big drama. New Flash Marvel when you blow up a fictional city every time you bother to visit it, the drama is no longer there and it is not impresive. When you play a character as just a villian without showing the character emotional depth or the people he is standing up for (thinking bystandards, children, ordinary Atlanteans) and only show them seeking vengance and blood you create a monster to be slain. Not a character to be rooted for or take interest in. So thank you Aaron and Marvel for once again butchering your first hero and another classic marvel character.

I agree with that also. After reading this Avengers issue (as well as the X-Men Red issues) I once again had to ask, "Have any of these writers actually read a Namor book?" Not Hickman's Namor, or Gillen's Namor, or Fraction's Namor, or Robinson's Namor, or Bendis' Namor, but an honest to goodness comic with NAMOR or SUB-MARINER in the title?

That is an excellent point about Namor, at least the one I'm a fan of, being the type of character that made you question who is right and who is wrong. He showed you there's more than one side to disagreements, and made you think about important things, not just how hard a character can punch.

I agree very much with DragonsChi.

If we're going to say Namor has truly shifted, back, into more of a surface adversary, this should really be plotted out much better.

There's no going back from how Namor treated Stingray.

*Is it possible that Namor, with Stingray or other's help, is playing the D of Deep or possibly Attuma or someone else.


From a political point of view, most Atlanteans and related must be so sick of their fate with Namor as their leader. Constant visitations of destruction on their city and environs. Would they indeed begin to think their leader is not really leading . . . ?

But like I sad, unless this is some hoax, bait and switch, there is no way Namor can credibly come back from this.

That gets brought up quite a few times in Namor stories. It's the sort of thing Krang and Byrrah were always throwing out there. But most of those stories end up showing how much worse off it would be for the Atlanteans if Namor was not there.

I love it when Namor plays other people, pretending to live up to their misconceptions of him.

[riprap]

There has to be more to the Stingray scene than what we've been shown. Either it's Namor being mind-controlled, or something is wrong with him. Jason Aaron can get a little far out as a writer, but I've got to give editor Tom Brevoort some credit, that he wouldn't just have Namor kill Stingray. Maybe Stingray is still alive, and there is something else going on with this story? At least I hope so!

[Reviresco]

I agree 100% with everyone that finds what happened to Stingray awful and something that Namor would not do.

Besides the general reprehensibility, there's the fact that Diane Arliss Newell was something of an old flame of Namor, and Namor has a long history of bending over backwards to keep his old girl friends happy. Murdering Diane's husband Stingray, the father of her children, will not make Diane happy.

I am with those that think Namor is not himself, in part because of these reasons:


1) Namor has never had completely black eyes -- except for Shark Namor, from Sub-Mariner the Depths, which isn't 616 Namor.

2) Namor would never call Tiger Shark, who participated in the murder of Namor's father, brother.

3) It is clear that Namor hated being possessed by the Phoenix, so why would he wear an outfit that is basically a variation on that?

4) While I liked finally getting Namor's actual thoughts as narration, they weren't exactly consistent what Namor has thought and said before. Namor more often thinks of himself as a bridge between the surface world and underwater world, rather than the ruler of both. Neptune himself told him that. So his "holy war" isn't exactly endorsed by Neptune.

5) I think Namor doesn't get enough credit for his strength and abilities by modern writers, especially underwater. He should be unbeatable underwater. That said, he's not the Hulk. Anger, righteous or otherwise, doesn't make him stronger. There's definitely something off in his fight with Avengers.

6) Hungry Atlantean children are NOT going to runaway from Namor, or a meal. They were obviously scared of something we aren't seeing, that drove them to basically kill themselves on a surface beach, rather than face underwater.

7) Except for Andromeda, everyone on Defenders of the Deep is a Namor foe -- though I'm not entire certain of the identity of two of them (the white haired guy above Man O'War and the crustacean), they don't exactly look like friends. I'm wondering if they are Suma Ket and one of these guys:

[DragonsChi]

At this point my faith in most of the writers at Marvel is pretty much lost. I hope that this story leads elsewhere for Namor but I'm not holding my breath.

But one thing I want to make sure people are aware of .....in every instance on land or sea the Hulk and Namor has fought up until the 00's Namor has beaten the Hulk. In the past Namor has beaten Hercules quite a few times, Namor has soloed the Fantastic Four, and Namor has fought Thor and Black Bolt to a stand still back when those two power levels actually meant something. Him taking on that group of Avengers underwater solo is not at all that surprising. A broken Thor, a youthful Ghost Rider, a man in a tin suit, a SheHulk who knows not her full limits, and woman who's battle strategy is to hit someone she physically weaker than instead of using her star blast? No contest.

It be different if they where actually working together instead of charging him all out. It be even more different if the Thor wasn't in the state that he is in. At least then Namor would have to deal with him first or differently before engaging. Anyway, my point is....what happen in Avengers #9 in regards to fighting the Avengers is not and should not be something gaged that Namor is off. It should be expected since in the early days, underwater Namor's strength was said to be limitless. As if it was backed by the very ocean itself. It was one of the things that was possibly gifted by Poseidon. That should have been the norm but recent trash writing basically ignored his mythology and now everyone believes that the Thing of all people poses a threat to him. In the past Namor would literally swat Benjamin J. Grim as if he were a gnat. That should be the norm it should have been weird and questioned when you have cats like Cage actually being a physical threat to Namor not the other way around.

[Reviresco]

There has to be more to the Stingray scene than what we've been shown. Either it's Namor being mind-controlled, or something is wrong with him. Jason Aaron can get a little far out as a writer, but I've got to give editor Tom Brevoort some credit, that he wouldn't just have Namor kill Stingray. Maybe Stingray is still alive, and there is something else going on with this story? At least I hope so!

I really hope Stingray isn't dead. Besides just hating to have that on Namor's conscience, I really do like the character -- he has got a great costume. Plus, Namor certainly doesn't need any more underwater characters, especially ones with history with him, getting killed off.

[Reviresco]

At this point my faith in most of the writers at Marvel is pretty much lost. I hope that this story leads elsewhere for Namor but I'm not holding my breath.

I understand completely. My expectations of any Namor appearances in all these books are severely low, especially after the Robinson experience. I don't think Jason Aaron is planning for this story to actually benefit Namor or make up / correct the abuse of the last ... decade? Has it been THAT long? Yes. Sadly, I think so. Namor really needs his own book.

But one thing I want to make sure people are aware of .....in every instance on land or sea the Hulk and Namor has fought up until the 00's Namor has beaten the Hulk. In the past Namor has beaten Hercules quite a few times, Namor has soloed the Fantastic Four, and Namor has fought Thor and Black Bolt to a stand still back when those two power levels actually meant something. Him taking on that group of Avengers underwater solo is not at all that surprising. A broken Thor, a youthful Ghost Rider, a man in a tin suit, a SheHulk who knows not her full limits, and woman who's battle strategy is to hit someone she physically weaker than instead of using her star blast? No contest.

I'm not so sure about that claim with the Hulk. There was someone that actually listed all their fights, and I think at best, it was a tie on their wins -- with Namor having the advantage in the water, of course. But still, that's far better than anyone else, except Thor, I think. Regardless, you are preaching to the choir. I don't feel modern writers understand exactly how formidable Namor is, or how hostile an environment 2 or 3 miles of water is. Properly written, Namor is almost unbeatable underwater by any air breather.

Thor is broken?

It be different if they where actually working together instead of charging him all out. It be even more different if the Thor wasn't in the state that he is in. At least then Namor would have to deal with him first or differently before engaging. Anyway, my point is....what happen in Avengers #9 in regards to fighting the Avengers is not and should not be something gaged that Namor is off. It should be expected since in the early days, underwater Namor's strength was said to be limitless. As if it was backed by the very ocean itself. It was one of the things that was possibly gifted by Poseidon. That should have been the norm but recent trash writing basically ignored his mythology and now everyone believes that the Thing of all people poses a threat to him. In the past Namor would literally swat Benjamin J. Grim as if he were a gnat. That should be the norm it should have been weird and questioned when you have cats like Cage actually being a physical threat to Namor not the other way around.

Please. Do not bring up that AvX Ben Grimm underwater nonsense.

I guess I have a lot of respect for Thor ... which may be misplaced from what you are saying. But sure, I read Avengers vol 1, 3 and 4, where Namor was taking on Thor, Cap and Iron Man -- and then having a throw down with the Hulk.

All that said, I do think that fight is Aaron's way of saying Namor is off / stronger than normal. I mean, he has Namor sort of say it, with the "righteous anger" business. Plus, Aaron actually wrote WOLVERINE beat Namor in the water -- granted it was a demon possessed Wolverine, but still. Not all that believable.

But I would also point out, his whole interaction with Captain Marvel is off. I mean, has anyone else heard Namor refer to any woman as a wench? I can't recall it.