IMPERIUS REX! Namor Appreciation

[Of Atlantis]

Am I really the only one that liked his Secret Avengers, Rage of Ultron and AXIS? Seems that way sometimes. *sigh*

Hahah I'm sorry. I didn't even mind his Secret Avengers, it just wasn't up to par with Uncanny X-Force, which I consider his magnum opus for Marvel. No comment on the others though :P

[Reviresco]

I was pretty active on the Uncanny Avengers Appreciation thread during the first volume of that series (it's actually why I returned to the CBR community), and somebody shared an interview Remender had done where he was asked about it. He sort of acknowledged that Namor, for good or ill, hadn't been used because he wasn't super invested in the character. While I think a kooky quartet Planet X rebel Avengers team of Alex, Jan, Namor, and McCoy drawn by Acuna and battling Magneto's X-Force, Eimin and the two remaining horsemen of Death would have been AWESOME, a dream come true twas not to be :P

Gillen and Ewing are good with me too, but I don't see Gillen returning to the MCU anytime soon, and while I respect him as a writer I don't feel like he took Namor entirely seriously, but did his best after inheriting Subby from Fraction.

Did you read Gillen's Cabal Namor story? It was a "serious" take on Namor's view on his responsibilities and kingship. I think Gillen has given more thought to Namor than he'd been allowed to explore in the X-books. The X-editors seem pretty keen on nixing Namor's opportunities for some reason. I remember James Asmus was told NOT to explore the fact that Namor knew Dr. Nemesis as a Nazi, who tried to kill him and the Invaders.

Gillen is also the only writer who dealt with the after effects of the Phoenix Force / AvX events on Namor himself. We certainly didn't get that from Hickman.

But I think you are correct. Unless something weird happens, I doubt we'll see Gillen in the MU proper again.


You mean when Remender was asked about his glaring error of leaving mutant Namor behind, in his "all" the mutants leave story?

Well, it goes a way to explaining why I don't care for his work. The characters he finds interesting / invested in, I don't. Plus, I think his killing off characters is pretty cheap and his "romances" are random, lack chemistry, and not at all believable.

Am I really the only one that liked his Secret Avengers, Rage of Ultron and AXIS? Seems that way sometimes. *sigh*

I bought Secret Avengers for the first arc, IIRC, because he actually used characters I was interested for once. Then hated the hatchet job he did on them. Haven't read the rest.

[Chief Jon]

Did you read Gillen's Cabal Namor story? It was a serious take on Namor's view on his responsibilities and kingship. I think Gillen has given more thought to Namor than he'd been allowed to explore in the X-books. The X-editors seem pretty keen on nixing Namor's opportunities for some reason. I remember James Asmus was told NOT to explore the fact that Namor knew Dr. Nemesis as a Nazi, who tried to kill him and the Invaders.

Gillen is also the only writer who dealt with the after effects of the Phoenix Force / AvX events on Namor himself. We certainly didn't get that from Hickman.


You mean when Remender was asked about his glaring error of leaving mutant Namor behind, in his "all" the mutants leave story?

Well, it goes a way to explaining why I don't care for his work. The characters he finds interesting / invested in, I don't. Plus, I think his killing off characters is pretty cheap and his "romances" are random, lack chemistry, and not at all believable.


I bought Secret Avengers for the first arc, IIRC, because he actually used characters I was interested for once. Then hated the hatchet job he did on them. Haven't read the rest.

Interesting. I didn't know all this about what Gillen came up against in terms of editorial interference. It's been forever since I read that Cabal story and hadn't realized it was Gillen. I'll need to hunt it down.

As for Remender I'll agree to disagree. His character work on Venom was probably the most accurate and personally resonant profile of a recovering addict I've ever read in any medium. I found the romances he developed between Alex & Jan and Flash & Valkyrie to be pretty believable. The first of those really surprised me and I was very opposed to it when he first had her show interest but it felt right to me within a couple of issues. "Of course these fairly together, sexy, type-A people who have spent most of their dating life involved with basket-cases click, and in a much healthier way than they did in their traditional pairings with said basket-cases!" is the conclusion I came too. Simon & Wanda's a classic will-they? won't-they? so no surprises there. Knowing that Gillen and Asmus were nixed on some of their Namor things has me wondering if Remender faced the same directive. Honestly, since he was never intended to be a big part of the story (but how cool it would have been) I wrote it off as McNiven's error until I saw the transcript from that Q&A.

I love Hank Pym and Vision. Rage of Ultron was one of the most emotionally challenging stories I've ever read, but it was worth the reading and rang true to me.

[dzub]

what about Warren Ellis?

[Chief Jon]

what about Warren Ellis?

Oh, I'm fine with pretty much anything Warren Ellis does ever. I should go read Karnak now.

[dzub]

he's pretty good at reconstructing characters..Moon Knight recently and Karnak now.
I only read karnak halfway but it seems alright so far

Warren Ellis is also versatile enough to handle a wide spectrum of different kinds of comics

[Reviresco]

Interesting. I didn't know all this about what Gillen came up against in terms of editorial interference. It's been forever since I read that Cabal story and hadn't realized it was Gillen. I'll need to hunt it down.

As for Remender I'll agree to disagree. His character work on Venom was probably the most accurate and personally resonant profile of a recovering addict I've ever read in any medium. I found the romances he developed between Alex & Jan and Flash & Valkyrie to be pretty believable. The first of those really surprised me and I was very opposed to it when he first had her show interest but it felt right to me within a couple of issues. "Of course these fairly together, sexy, type-A people who have spent most of their dating life involved with basket-cases click, and in a much healthier way than they did in their traditional pairings with said basket-cases!" is the conclusion I came too. Simon & Wanda's a classic will-they? won't-they? so no surprises there. Knowing that Gillen and Asmus were nixed on some of their Namor things has me wondering if Remender faced the same directive. Honestly, since he was never intended to be a big part of the story (but how cool it would have been) I wrote it off as McNiven's error until I saw the transcript from that Q&A.

I love Hank Pym and Vision. Rage of Ultron was one of the most emotionally challenging stories I've ever read, but it was worth the reading and rang true to me.

I think in general, the X-books face a lot more editorial managing, at least in the Alonso / Lowe era, than other books.

Asmus is the only one that stated it outright. I don't know if Gillen was nixed on any Namor specific ideas -- I just know he liked the character, he did pitch for Namor's series, and he's had some thoughtful answers. We also had the Shaw plotline ignored. And then there was Si Spurrier's X-Club series, which featured Atlanteans and an Invaders back story with Namor, yet zero for Namor to do / say, even though he appeared in panels???

I only read the Flash and Val romance in Secret Avengers and that was completely out of the blue and unbelievable to me, so yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

From what you've said, and what I've seen, I seriously doubt Remender had any interest / ideas for Namor to be nixed.

[Reviresco]

what about Warren Ellis?

Oh, I'm fine with pretty much anything Warren Ellis does ever. I should go read Karnak now.

I agree, there's little I've read by Ellis that I didn't enjoy. That said ... he might go too far in his reimaging of Namor. Plus, of course, there's the major hurdle of Ellis only getting characters that Marvel wants to push -- and that won't be Namor under this regime, unless he gets a movie.

[Reviresco]

Another NYCC Namor cosplay ... sort of.

The Brocean Aquabros!




I blame Hawkeye.

[Of Atlantis]

I am also content with blaming Hawkeye.

[Trident]

Can we blame Fraction instead since ...you know....he was the one who led to the ruin of Hawkeye?

[Chief Jon]

he's pretty good at reconstructing characters..Moon Knight recently and Karnak now.
I only read karnak halfway but it seems alright so far

Warren Ellis is also versatile enough to handle a wide spectrum of different kinds of comics

That is my one misgiving about Ellis. I don't know if I want Namor deconstructed-reconstructed in the Ellis mold. But then Planetary is just. so. GOOD.

[Chief Jon]

Can we blame Fraction instead since ...you know....he was the one who led to the ruin of Hawkeye?

Aww, I like Fraction. It's evident he's a colossal Bill Everett fan, and I feel like he didn't get his chance with Namor. I'd rather blame the success of Deadpool and Squirrel-Girl for the rise of the hipster hero . . . okay maybe Fraction's Hawkeye too.

I only read the Flash and Val romance in Secret Avengers and that was completely out of the blue and unbelievable to me, so yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I guess I got that in the context of Flash's larger story that Remender had shepherded for about 24 issues through the main Venom book before doing SA. In a vacuum I don't know if it works.

[Trident]

Aww, I like Fraction. It's evident he's a colossal Bill Everett fan, and I feel like he didn't get his chance with Namor. I'd rather blame the success of Deadpool and Squirrel-Girl for the rise of the hipster hero . . . okay maybe Fraction's Hawkeye too.



I guess I got that in the context of Flash's larger story that Remender had shepherded for about 24 issues through the main Venom book before doing SA. In a vacuum I don't know if it works.

I agree with Fraction being one of the few I would trust with Namor. However, I also have to admit that his Hawkeye brought about the Homer Simpson Archer that we have today.

I have a love hate thing with him now all due to it.

[Of Atlantis]

Fraction writes a pretty decent Namor from the little I've read of him in X-Men, but the character never quite seemed as serious under his pen while being surrounded by characters who seem to quip for a living and I don't think his Defenders run was long enough or featured enough Namor in order for me to form a really solid opinion on his portrayal.

Even though I definitely enjoyed the first two volumes of Hawkeye, it nosedived after that imo and barely brought itself together for the finale.

The teenage/goofy/indy hero is definitely a trend Marvel is trying to exploit right now and I definitely agree the breakout success of Fraction's Hawkeye is partially responsible for the common vibe of many of these new books in ANAD Marvel.