IMPERIUS REX! Namor Appreciation

[ImperiusWrecked]

Man that whole event was so trash. For almost everyone involved. With the way Storm and T'Challa ended their marriage to that scene right there. (The whole slug fest between them should have never been allowed. They could have ended their marriage another way.)

What I never understood was why were fans so outraged at Namor for that even when he was pushed by Emma and Controlled by the Phoenix. I also hate to call T'Challa out here but why did the writers have one of the Smartest men in the Marvel world think it was a good idea to have the people who were being hunted by comic level beings be placed in the middle of his country?

There was so much blame to be thrown around there between Namor, Emma, T'Challa, the Phoenix Force, and somewhat Captain America that the whole thing read to me as dumb and contrived.

The thing that really gets on my nerves is that there were five members of the phoenix force but Namor is the only one who is still dealing with the ramifications of that event, and people have completely tied it into his character as though he never had done anything before or after that.

[Cville]

The thing that really gets on my nerves is that there were five members of the phoenix force but Namor is the only one who is still dealing with the ramifications of that event, and people have completely tied it into his character as though he never had done anything before or after that.

Wasn't he the only one to commit mass murder?

[LordUltimus]

Wasn't he the only one to commit mass murder?

Emma was killing people, IIRC.

[Leon Evelake]

Wasn't he the only one to commit mass murder?

Didn't Jean Grey kill billions while under the control of the Phoenix?
Yes it was the whole of it but I dont think its that different in circumstances

[Reviresco]

This and everything else you all said. I'm so sick of Atlantis being treated like this. And whenever they want Atlantis to be a threat they start going 'oh no Atlantis and Namor are so strong! it will take all of us to defeat him' then they destroy it in one panel and congratulate themselves or just plain out ignore everything Namor is dealing with after their actions have led to Atlantis and its people being hurt. They call on Namor to be sympathetic to surface people but are so insensitive to his plight.

That's the thing. Atlantis IS so strong. It has literally shown it can take out the world TWICE, on panel in the comics. Its relationship with the surface world used to be shown as a cold war superpower, with planet ending powers. Nowadays, however, its hostile environment is ignored and it repeatedly gets jobbed out to make other countries and superheroes and villains look good. Of course, to beat that dead horse some more, there would be less of that happening if Namor had his own book.

That's probably why I'm not as fond of Namor's relationship with Cap and Sue, as I am with his other relationships. It tends to favor their side, and invariably, Namor ends up screwing himself over with his people.

Some really solid points you two raised particularly on how if this were say Wakanda the sovereigns rage would probably be portrayed more righteously. Of course the entire thing feels a bit forced. The reason Namor is so enraged feels legitimate enough. But everything else feels off. He is even back to complaining about Black Panther vowing his death after they more or less reconciled
I would actually love it is some sit kept a tally on various things that happen in comics deaths, retcons fights, wars, destruction of citys
I am curious how many times Atlantis (and Asgard for that matter) have been destroyed

In Aaron's Avengers it is definitely forced and something is off. But again, I think that's because there is something else going on that is affecting Namor.

I don't know if Namor is reconciled or not, because the ending of Secret Wars was so confusing, and every writer seemed to treat it differently, it's hard to figure out what is still the same and what isn't. And what people remember.

I'm curious on that matter also.

[Reviresco]

I'm reading this and holding my tongue, ummm, maybe not.

And it is a shame, because I like characters like the Panther. Until they created this feud between him and Namor. I don't even remember what it is about!

Namor is literally the most noble of most characters, just for putting up with all this and that has been depicted, even under retcons (Invaders for example).

It is pretty much this -- a contrived feud. As others have pointed out, Black Panther isn't in Namor's books, much less in a feud. Yet, Namor repeatedly gets abused in Black Panther stories. And Hickman escalated and emphasized this mess, and not for Namor's benefit, until now, there's a large segment of comic fans that only see Namor as a Black Panther villain.

Never forget. Lol.

There's more to it than that, but I doubt I'll ever forget, cause it keeps getting thrown in my face by fans and Marvel alike.

Man that whole event was so trash. For almost everyone involved. With the way Storm and T'Challa ended their marriage to that scene right there. (The whole slug fest between them should have never been allowed. They could have ended their marriage another way.)

What I never understood was why were fans so outraged at Namor for that even when he was pushed by Emma and Controlled by the Phoenix. I also hate to call T'Challa out here but why did the writers have one of the Smartest men in the Marvel world think it was a good idea to have the people who were being hunted by comic level beings be placed in the middle of his country?

There was so much blame to be thrown around there between Namor, Emma, T'Challa, the Phoenix Force, and somewhat Captain America that the whole thing read to me as dumb and contrived.

That's the problem with so many of these events -- dumb and contrived with too much editorial interference. But that's the thing to remember about AvX. Everything that happened with Namor, was contrived to set up Hickman's New Avengers, etc., which was to showcase Black Panther and spin off to a Black Panther book in time for the movie -- with a major side detour to Hickman's favorite couple, Reed and Doom. Did Namor get a book to clean up or capitalize on that mess? Did he even get a mini-series? Did he get his own story arc? No, no, and no. Oh, wait. He got his head chopped off to prop up SOMEONE else's book. And he STILL couldn't get a story about him out of that mess!

And writers wonder why Namor fans are so wary when he gets used in books.

[DragonsChi]

Emma was killing people, IIRC.

Pretty sure most of the Phoenix 5 killed someone in that event. Maybe not Colossus since he was just trying to get back with Kitty during it. But I vaguely remember Magik having demon's attack civilians. If that is the case I'm pretty sure demon's don't just stop at maiming people. Army of Demon > Large Tidal Wave. Just saying, but a Tidal Wave is probably an instant death for the most part. The one's who didn't die would have been knocked out leading to a painless death. Demons? They would make it a slow death. People probably would get raped in the process.

And Scott killed Charles.

In Aaron's Avengers it is definitely forced and something is off. But again, I think that's because there is something else going on that is affecting Namor.

I think you are giving Aaron to much created. Your a better person than me but I a feel that what we are seeing is what we are going to get.

[Reviresco]

The thing that really gets on my nerves is that there were five members of the phoenix force but Namor is the only one who is still dealing with the ramifications of that event, and people have completely tied it into his character as though he never had done anything before or after that.

I wouldn't mind it if we got a _Namor_ story where he actually dealt with the ramifications of being possessed by the Phoenix, but I do find the later very annoying.

Wasn't he the only one to commit mass murder?

There's other characters that have committed mass murder, including T'challa, Shuri, Cap, Bucky, Hulk, Wolverine, Punisher, Jean Grey/Phoenix, Thor, Star Lord, Black Bolt, Silver Surfer, etc.

Emma was killing people, IIRC.

Wasn't Magic killing people? Or was she just torturing Avengers?

Didn't Jean Grey kill billions while under the control of the Phoenix?
Yes it was the whole of it but I dont think its that different in circumstances

Marvel managed to make a convoluted mess out of Jean Grey's original Phoenix possession ... I think they settled on it NOT actually being the real Jean Grey, which sort messes up the original story, IMO.

[Reviresco]

Pretty sure most of the Phoenix 5 killed someone in that event. Maybe not Colossus since he was just trying to get back with Kitty during it. But I vaguely remember Magik having demon's attack civilians. If that is the case I'm pretty sure demon's don't just stop at maiming people.

And Scott killed Charles.

Colossus was torturing animals.

I think you are giving Aaron to much created. Your a better person than me but I a feel that what we are seeing is what we are going to get.

LOL! I know what you mean, but ... I meant to point this out earlier ... Aaron has something going on with Namor, because he actually wrote him as powerhouse underwater. That is proper and right, but the two other times Aaron wrote Namor in an underwater fight, he had both Thor and demon Wolverine beat Namor IN the water. Something is up. ;p

[Reviresco]

On a more pleasant subject ... Jason Latour gave an interview on Marvel.com about his Defenders Silver Surfer book, and had this interesting insight.

: Hulk, Doctor Strange, Silver Surfer, and Namor are a pretty odd combo—what strengths and weaknesses do they bring to the table as a team?

Jason Latour: Well again, they’re a non-team. They’re these uniquely powerful and headstrong characters. It makes an odd sort of sense that they’d end up together because they’re almost a check and balance against the powers of the others. Strange is magic. Hulk is science. Surfer is the cosmos. Namor represents, in essence, all of the Earth itself. It extends to their personalities and is kind of this endless challenge and reaffirmation for them all.

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...inkId=60680104

I never really thought about the Defenders that way, so it's something for me to think about. I sort of like his interpretation of Namor.

[Reviresco]

Attachment 74734

I made this edit a while back and wanted to share. It is actor Russell Wong when he was younger, and I think if Marvel had made a Prince Namor movie in that time he would have been such a good pick.

That is a great edit! I love what you did with the ears. And an interesting choice.

[DragonsChi]

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...inkId=60680104

I never really thought about the Defenders that way, so it's something for me to think about. I sort of like his interpretation of Namor.

I think it's about time someone acknowledged it.

Out of all the monarchs in the MU I always felt that Namor character growth should have been to the point where he was somewhat the linchpin to the countries working together. The character in a way was the answer to Superman when he was first created and his "country" covers the whole globe. It touches every surface. He should have a much large role in the MU where he works with the other Marvel kingdoms but has the most sense of responsibility and the other rulers acknowledge that and know why.

Colossus was torturing animals.

Well there you go. He was equally a crap bag in that event.

As a fan of all of Marvel's rulers...I feel T'Challa had a equal share in the blame as Namor. The Avengers had no business to be in Wakanda when that went down. That was just irresponsible as king. Which is part of why I felt the whole event was dumb. The story seemed to be mostly written for shock value sales. The storyline didn't even really make a lot of sense and conflicted with several characters previous history.

[ImperiusWrecked]

That is a great edit! I love what you did with the ears. And an interesting choice.

Thanks!

That's the thing. Atlantis IS so strong. It has literally shown it can take out the world TWICE, on panel in the comics. Its relationship with the surface world used to be shown as a cold war superpower, with planet ending powers. Nowadays, however, its hostile environment is ignored and it repeatedly gets jobbed out to make other countries and superheroes and villains look good. Of course, to beat that dead horse some more, there would be less of that happening if Namor had his own book.

That's probably why I'm not as fond of Namor's relationship with Cap and Sue, as I am with his other relationships. It tends to favor their side, and invariably, Namor ends up screwing himself over with his people.

I know Atlantis is strong but I just feel none of the writers remember that until its convenient for them to set up Atlantis as a threat to their heroes/characters story. I personally can't stand it when Namor is in FF books because of how they always have him set up as Reed's competition for Sue. (I don't want to do any shipping discourse but I do not like Sue/Namor because it never shows Namor in a good light, he is supposed to be the bad guy there and I am happy that Marvel moved past this love triangle). Steve's relationship with Namor has taken a long downward slide and I just wish they could recapture that old mutual respect for each other.

I wouldn't mind it if we got a _Namor_ story where he actually dealt with the ramifications of being possessed by the Phoenix, but I do find the later very annoying.

I am forever salty about that! The closest we got was in the teen jean comic where she enters his mind and sees how much he is still affected. I really wish we could have gotten more than a few panels. The effects of a man like Namor whose element is water and the earth and being used by a cosmic fire bird would have been so interesting.

I think it's about time someone acknowledged it.

Out of all the monarchs in the MU I always felt that Namor character growth should have been to the point where he was somewhat the linchpin to the countries working together. The character in a way was the answer to Superman when he was first created and his "country" covers the whole globe. It touches every surface. He should have a much large role in the MU where he works with the other Marvel kingdoms but has the most sense of responsibility and the other rulers acknowledge that and know why.



Well there you go. He was equally a crap bag in that event.

As a fan of all of Marvel's rulers...I feel T'Challa had a equal share in the blame as Namor. The Avengers had no business to be in Wakanda when that went down. That was just irresponsible as king. Which is part of why I felt the whole event was dumb. The story seemed to be mostly written for shock value sales. The storyline didn't even really make a lot of sense and conflicted with several characters previous history.

I think that is very interesting, Namor being a linchpin, because Namor really is one of the few characters who has transversed so many different comics and been on so many teams, even at times two teams at once. One of the more interesting comics cameos he had I feel was in Man Thing, heck he even met Howard the duck and I just love that comic because we get more backstory for Atlantis.

I think Namor gets blamed unfairly (not that he hasn't felt ramifications for the actions he had done or that he is blameless but I feel he is blamed MORE than others were) and is always used for stuff especially in the last decade. As I said before he is really the only one who is still being punished for Phoenix and what happened when he was possessed.

T'challa and Namor should be strong allies, both come from a country that has shunned outsiders and relied on themselves, they have more in common and if it wasn't for AvX events then they could have been, but I feel the same about Namor being used and abused as a villain in BP books all the time to the point where these days if anyone hears his name the first thing that pops up is; Namor is Black Panther's greatest enemy. I feel he isn't because that would mean that T'challa and him had history together before their falling out and honestly they never really had anything more than a team up here or there. Also I am not as well read in BP lore but I am sure he has enemies who are far more personal and more of his great enemy than Namor was.

I never really thought about the Defenders that way, so it's something for me to think about. I sort of like his interpretation of Namor.

This was very interesting, thank you! I like this, because I have always liked Defenders.

[Reviresco]

I think it's about time someone acknowledged it.

Out of all the monarchs in the MU I always felt that Namor character growth should have been to the point where he was somewhat the linchpin to the countries working together. The character in a way was the answer to Superman when he was first created and his "country" covers the whole globe. It touches every surface. He should have a much large role in the MU where he works with the other Marvel kingdoms but has the most sense of responsibility and the other rulers acknowledge that and know why.

There have been some writers that have touched upon Namor being an elemental force, but representing the Earth ... I'll have to think on it more.

I don't know. Working with other kingdoms always seems to happen in other books and rarely works out for Namor. He definitely should have a larger role in the MU, but Marvel seems content to ignore 75% of the planet. I mean how many of these events has editorial said, "it will touch EVERY corner of the MU," and they completely leave out Namor. Heck, look at Secret Wars!

Well there you go. He was equally a crap bag in that event.

As a fan of all of Marvel's rulers...I feel T'Challa had a equal share in the blame as Namor. The Avengers had no business to be in Wakanda when that went down. That was just irresponsible as king. Which is part of why I felt the whole event was dumb. The story seemed to be mostly written for shock value sales. The storyline didn't even really make a lot of sense and conflicted with several characters previous history.

No, the Avengers did not. But they made several contrived moves, which resulted in other characters paying for their mistakes. Remember, it was Tony Stark who accidentally created the Phoenix Five in the first place. I don't think T'challa was actually king at the time of the event. But IIRC, one of the writers actually had T'challa say he couldn't invade Utopia with the Avengers because as a royal, his actions could drag Wakanda into the conflict. Then he turns around and invites the Avengers to hide out in Wakanda, firmly placing Wakanda in the middle of the conflict. They had five writers, plus all the editors, and they couldn't keep things straight.

But looking back, you can see what Hickman wanted to happen to Namor (I think he's even the reason why Gillen put Namor on the Extinction Team), and that's why you have both T'challa and Namor written that way. I wish Hickman had stuck around after Secret Wars. As a long distance planner, I have to wonder if he actually had a plan / plotline for Namor to fix what he had done to him.

[DragonsChi]

Hickman's pet character was Reed Richards. I doubt he would have anything good planned for Namor long term. Hickman as a writer had Numerous opportunities to show Namor in a clear define good light. Never happened. I think he is a good writer overall but in regards to Namor I don't think more time would have changed anything.