IMPERIUS REX! Namor Appreciation

[ImperiusWrecked]

I have mixed emotions about Hickman's Namor.

The old school Namor wasn't there and he is the Namor I love most, the noble Prince of his people, the outcast, the man torn between two worlds.

Instead we have a new Namor who has all of Namor's bad qualities turned up to the max, this was a character who was used by Hickman for side plot, cause the whole thing in the end boiled down to something between Reed and Victor. The last time they got the illuminati together Namor didn't trust them but here he is almost passive, going along with everything, then making deals behind everyone's back, sending Proxima to Wakanda for revenge. Old school Namor wouldn't have trusted so much nor would he have let anyone else take his vengeance from him. This whole run marked a significant turn in how Namor's writing has been handled, they base him off this run and show him to be more of tyrant king rather than a noble one who wants the best for his people. IMO.

I really wish we could get the old Namor back and not edgelord Namor who he has been since then. (I won't lie some of Hickman's one liners for Namor were good and I did enjoy the art but ultimately this comic only hurt his character in the end. He is just hopping around book to book being everyone's favorite scapegoat. )

[Abe]

Hickman's pet character was Reed Richards. I doubt he would have anything good planned for Namor long term. Hickman as a writer had Numerous opportunities to show Namor in a clear define good light. Never happened. I think he is a good writer overall but in regards to Namor I don't think more time would have changed anything.

Well... I just want to point that Hickman didn't put even his pet characters - I mean Reed and Victor - in "a clear define good light".

I really like his Illuminati Namor and I agree with the choices he made tbh. (Happily I didn't have to make them myself! So let's say I'm just talking about a comic book... ok? )

As Rev I kinda wish he had stay longer. I think that not only Namor, but also T'challa would have been written differently - that's what the ending of SW was pointing at imho. And maybe Victor and Reed would also have been written differently - but we're only, a few years later, at that point in time when we can speculate about this.

About a completely different subject I liked both the issues of The best defense. The Hulk one mostly because of use of the panels from the earliest issues of the Hulk . Great idea! And the Namor one because of the world building and the Namor's narration... and the pages out of water : a great moment which makes the cover even more interesting. The sea... and the dark... Quite beautiful!

It was my first Defenders reading ever. "Ceci n'est pas une team"

[Leon Evelake]

That's the thing. Atlantis IS so strong. It has literally shown it can take out the world TWICE, on panel in the comics. Its relationship with the surface world used to be shown as a cold war superpower, with planet ending powers. Nowadays, however, its hostile environment is ignored and it repeatedly gets jobbed out to make other countries and superheroes and villains look good. Of course, to beat that dead horse some more, there would be less of that happening if Namor had his own book.

That's probably why I'm not as fond of Namor's relationship with Cap and Sue, as I am with his other relationships. It tends to favor their side, and invariably, Namor ends up screwing himself over with his people.





In Aaron's Avengers it is definitely forced and something is off. But again, I think that's because there is something else going on that is affecting Namor.

I don't know if Namor is reconciled or not, because the ending of Secret Wars was so confusing, and every writer seemed to treat it differently, it's hard to figure out what is still the same and what isn't. And what people remember.

I'm curious on that matter also.

Good point during the secret wars and while they were on battle world they had definitely moved on as much as they ever would. But how everything works in the post recreated universe is kind of vague. As for if something is affecting Namor.. being that this is Jason Aaron, I have my doubts. They guy cannot write a single series without retconing things. His Thor run lives and breaths retcons, Thanos rebirth is a massive retcon and even his Punisher max retconed Franks history, motivations and age. I ahve a feeling Namor is next on the docket.

As for the stuff other people were talking about in regards to Hickmans Namor.. I am mildly mixed. At times I think he overly focused too much on his jerkass attributes which are just getting more and more prominent over the years and more or less ignored any nobility he had. But at times I loved how he wrote him the scene where he (Do we have to worry about spoilers? I dont know how to tag or tid them here ) stepped up and called out the Illuminati for not having the conviction to follow through with their plan to save their world and then destroyed the Great Society's world. It was really well wrote and felt perfectly in character. Namor has always been the kind of man that would make sacrifices to protect his people
"I am the greatest man I know... But compared to this, I'm nothing. Just as you... are nothing. Am I the only man here with the courage of his convictions... Or am I the only one with conviction at all?

These lines you won't cross... These things you won't do... They shame you. How dare any of you put yourself--your damned morals--above the lives of every living thing? The truth is, you people aren't worth that... And neither am I. Our lives are a pittance. A petty, small nothing..."

Minus the " I am the greatest man I know" part this is some probably my favorite Namor lines. If someone could take this Namor and add in a bit more of his classic nobility I would be thrilled.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Good point during the secret wars and while they were on battle world they had definitely moved on as much as they ever would. But how everything works in the post recreated universe is kind of vague. As for if something is affecting Namor.. being that this is Jason Aaron, I have my doubts. They guy cannot write a single series without retconing things. His Thor run lives and breaths retcons, Thanos rebirth is a massive retcon and even his Punisher max retconed Franks history, motivations and age. I ahve a feeling Namor is next on the docket.

As for the stuff other people were talking about in regards to Hickmans Namor.. I am mildly mixed. At times I think he overly focused too much on his jerkass attributes which are just getting more and more prominent over the years and more or less ignored any nobility he had. But at times I loved how he wrote him the scene where he (Do we have to worry about spoilers? I dont know how to tag or tid them here ) stepped up and called out the Illuminati for not having the conviction to follow through with their plan to save their world and then destroyed the Great Society's world. It was really well wrote and felt perfectly in character. Namor has always been the kind of man that would make sacrifices to protect his people
"I am the greatest man I know... But compared to this, I'm nothing. Just as you... are nothing. Am I the only man here with the courage of his convictions... Or am I the only one with conviction at all?

These lines you won't cross... These things you won't do... They shame you. How dare any of you put yourself--your damned morals--above the lives of every living thing? The truth is, you people aren't worth that... And neither am I. Our lives are a pittance. A petty, small nothing..."

Minus the " I am the greatest man I know" part this is some probably my favorite Namor lines. If someone could take this Namor and add in a bit more of his classic nobility I would be thrilled.

It's why I have mixed feelings on this Namor, I vastly prefer old school Namor to Hickman's Namor but he did get some pretty cool lines. I really REALLY hope Aaron is done with Namor, and he doesn't pop up again in Avengers because if they try to retcon any part of him I will flip.

And they better not get rid of his wings or mutant status, because his wings are a part of the character but almost everywhere I go I see people saying that if Namor is going to be in the mcu they have to get rid of them and to that I say: Keep him out of the MCU. Namor being the first mutant is right; he got his origin story of developing his wings when he was a teen under distress almost 5 years before they brought up the concepts of mutants! Apocalypse came way later. Even in the early x-men comics Xavier says that Namor wont ever be on their side because he belongs to Atlantis. His mutant side isn't touched on for years and years until he joins them in Utopia.

xmen6.jpg

[Reviresco]

Hickman's pet character was Reed Richards. I doubt he would have anything good planned for Namor long term. Hickman as a writer had Numerous opportunities to show Namor in a clear define good light. Never happened. I think he is a good writer overall but in regards to Namor I don't think more time would have changed anything.

I think Hickman actually liked Doom better than Reed -- or maybe as sort of two sides of one coin. They were definitely favorites of his, and the backbone of his FF run, out of which, Secret Wars spun. Secret Wars was really an FF event.

I don't know. IIRC, he didn't leave any of the FF in the lurch when he finished there. A lot is conjecture on my part, but we do know that Namor was on Hickman's favorite character list and he considered him an integral part of the FF history. We also know he was asked to boost Black Panther, and I think he was tapped to write a Black Panther book after Secret Wars -- until Ta-Neshi Coates agreed to do it. And while he was too rushed to expand on it, I think it was clear in Secret Wars that he wanted to write Namor and Black Panther together. There was more to that story than what we got to see. Heck, most of us wanted to see their adventures on Battleworld when they finally showed up together.

Plus, remember, Namor warned T'challa that he had traitors in Wakanda, and that's how Namor knew some stuff. That was never followed up on either.

As for portraying Namor in a clear defined good light ... no. Do you mean American morals, superhero good? No, that was not Hickman's take on Namor. And frankly, that's not really anyone's take on Namor. Namor is a prince, not a superhero, of a different country, with a different culture. He's flawed, but he has his own code.

I didn't entirely agree with Hickman's take on Namor and it has taken me a while to see the positives. I agree with you, that there were better aspects of Namor that he failed to recognize, perhaps because of story constraints. But more than anyone, Hickman portrayed Namor as the political creature he must be to play the Game of Thrones in Atlantis, as half airbreather, for over 75 years -- and win. Hickman's Namor outsmarted T'challa and the Wakandans and literally snatched a victory out of the ruins of Atlantis with nothing but words. He played the allegedly smartest men in the world, in the Illuminati, and formed the Cabal to repeatedly save the multiverse. Hickman gave Namor a ton of great scenes and lines. He was, without a doubt, the most entertaining and stand out character in New Avengers.

[DragonsChi]

Don't get me wrong. I think Hickman writes a good Namor. I just don't think he writes in favor of Namor.

I think he had/has a biased towards him. I do think on some levels the man understands him but I don't think his motivation is to write him in away other than tearing him completely down.

Everything he did with Namor was pretty much one side in favor of everyone else but him.

But that is just my opinion.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Don't know if anyone else has seen this but Marvel seems to want to change everything and I for one am tired of retcons:

marvelavengers2019.jpg


Unless they are trying to confirm its Namor once more finding Steve in the ice, which we all already knew, then there is no point in changing that since the whole, Steve being found in the MCU by shield is already over and done with. They don't need to keep changing the comics to fit the mcu.

marvelnamoravengers1963.jpg

[DragonsChi]

Don't know if anyone else has seen this but Marvel seems to want to change everything and I for one am tired of retcons:

marvelavengers2019.jpg


Unless they are trying to confirm its Namor once more finding Steve in the ice, which we all already knew, then there is no point in changing that since the whole, Steve being found in the MCU by shield is already over and done with. They don't need to keep changing the comics to fit the mcu.

marvelnamoravengers1963.jpg

I brefily mentioned this in the thread featuring the event.

I hope they don’t earse that from Namor’s history. Be a shame.

[Reviresco]

Don't get me wrong. I think Hickman writes a good Namor. I just don't think he writes in favor of Namor.

I think he had/has a biased towards him. I do think on some levels the man understands him but I don't think his motivation is to write him in away other than tearing him completely down.

Everything he did with Namor was pretty much one side in favor of everyone else but him.

But that is just my opinion.

I think everyone was torn down in Hickman's New Avengers run. Everyone was put through the grinder and put in impossible situations. But I agree in part, Hickman was attempting to write a Black Panther story, so that was his focus, and the rest of the characters were supporting that story. I don't know if Hickman would have reconstructed Namor and Atlantis after tearing them down, if he had continued. But I do think there were things he left unresolved.

Of course, he would have had to do that in a Black Panther book. So, perhaps it is best that he didn't continue on. LOL!

[DragonsChi]

I think everyone was torn down in Hickman's New Avengers run. Everyone was put through the grinder and put in impossible situations. But I agree in part, Hickman was attempting to write a Black Panther story, so that was his focus, and the rest of the characters were supporting that story. I don't know if Hickman would have reconstructed Namor and Atlantis after tearing them down, if he had continued. But I do think there were things he left unresolved.

Of course, he would have had to do that in a Black Panther book. So, perhaps it is best that he didn't continue on. LOL!

Usually, if a writer has a plan to solve or even things he would like to do to make them better, they will hint at in the title. There were elements of that with Stark, T'Chall, Cap, Black Bolt and on the lesser part Strange. However, a lot of the time with Namor he would have him just do things and thats it. Any new or unfamiliar reader of Namor had no choice but to think that Namor was arrogant prick. Hickmans being forced or choosing to write a Black Panther book does not excuse that in my opinion. Yes, Namor had some great moments in that title but comparatively it is like a Bear who can do tricks in the circus. As in Bobo is the star of the ring for 3-5 whole minutes and all eyes are on him. However, when the lights dim the animal is still sent to his caged and treated like merch instead of a living creature. He moved the show along and now it's back into his corner.

[Reviresco]

Don't know if anyone else has seen this but Marvel seems to want to change everything and I for one am tired of retcons:

marvelavengers2019.jpg


Unless they are trying to confirm its Namor once more finding Steve in the ice, which we all already knew, then there is no point in changing that since the whole, Steve being found in the MCU by shield is already over and done with. They don't need to keep changing the comics to fit the mcu.

marvelnamoravengers1963.jpg

Exactly this. I really wish they would stop trying to make the comics into the movies. Especially since they've completely written Namor out of the MCU history.

I brefily mentioned this in the thread featuring the event.

I hope they don’t earse that from Namor’s history. Be a shame.

Yes, I saw those in that thread. It looks like yet another Marvel event and I have very little confidence in them at all -- especially one that looks like it will rewrite Marvel's history. I think that thread will be far more entertaining.

[Reviresco]

Well... I just want to point that Hickman didn't put even his pet characters - I mean Reed and Victor - in "a clear define good light".

I really like his Illuminati Namor and I agree with the choices he made tbh. (Happily I didn't have to make them myself! So let's say I'm just talking about a comic book... ok? )

As Rev I kinda wish he had stay longer. I think that not only Namor, but also T'challa would have been written differently - that's what the ending of SW was pointing at imho. And maybe Victor and Reed would also have been written differently - but we're only, a few years later, at that point in time when we can speculate about this.

For New Avengers, I don't think any of the Illuminati were shown in a particularly good light. Doom didn't have a big role in that run, but he looked competent when he did appear, taking advantage of Namor and the Illuminati focusing and handling the Incursions.

Generally speaking, I do like Hickman's writing and I wish he wasn't burned out, and had stayed writing at Marvel, regardless of what book he wrote.

About a completely different subject I liked both the issues of The best defense. The Hulk one mostly because of use of the panels from the earliest issues of the Hulk . Great idea! And the Namor one because of the world building and the Namor's narration... and the pages out of water : a great moment which makes the cover even more interesting. The sea... and the dark... Quite beautiful!

It was my first Defenders reading ever. "Ceci n'est pas une team"

I loved that! I'm glad you enjoyed the books. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how they all tie together in that last issue.

Namor narration is always a good thing.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Wow just the last issue of X-Men Red left me disappointed, the series itself is totally Jean's book. Which is good for her character but the way they hyped up Namor and then barely had him in anything sucks, and to make matters worse SPOILER: Tony was saying to dump a bomb in the ocean, right next to Namor, they treat it like a joke but Namor and Atlantis really are Marvel's dumping ground.

(sorry i dont know how to do that spoiler thing here?)

I was really looking forward to this series and we barely got anything out of it. Oh well, I hope Invaders will be better.

[Reviresco]

Wow just the last issue of X-Men Red left me disappointed, the series itself is totally Jean's book. Which is good for her character but the way they hyped up Namor and then barely had him in anything sucks, and to make matters worse SPOILER: Tony was saying to dump a bomb in the ocean, right next to Namor, they treat it like a joke but Namor and Atlantis really are Marvel's dumping ground.

(sorry i dont know how to do that spoiler thing here?)

[spoil] hidden stuff [////spoil] but you only need one /, like this /spoil

Way to go, Tony! Those two are never going to get along.

I was really looking forward to this series and we barely got anything out of it. Oh well, I hope Invaders will be better.

We got a Travis Charest Namor cover. ;p

I pretty much gave up on X-Men Red after Atlantis got attacked, again, and Namor got jobbed for Gentle. I had high hopes that a writer who obviously appreciated the ocean, from his work on the Deep, would do something cool with ocean and Namor, but apparently he only wanted to use the setting for a pun and was clueless about Namor.


I'm far more looking forward to picking up this variant cover by Marcos Martin. If it isn't excessively priced, that is.




Oh, and the two other Defenders books. Did anyone pick those up?

[DragonsChi]

[spoil] hidden stuff [////spoil] but you only need one /, like this /spoil

Way to go, Tony! Those two are never going to get along.




We got a Travis Charest Namor cover. ;p

I pretty much gave up on X-Men Red after Atlantis got attacked, again, and Namor got jobbed for Gentle. I had high hopes that a writer who obviously appreciated the ocean, from his work on the Deep, would do something cool with ocean and Namor, but apparently he only wanted to use the setting for a pun and was clueless about Namor.


I'm far more looking forward to picking up this variant cover by Marcos Martin. If it isn't excessively priced, that is.



Oh, and the two other Defenders books. Did anyone pick those up?

I wonder if Namor will get an invite to the wedding? He wasn't asked to help the FF fight when they called in all their previous members. I know Namor has never been an actual member of the FF but he is closer to being a member than Iceman or Herby ever was.