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  1. #8701
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I WAS waiting for someone to come along and say "this". Yes, canon shows these things as true.

    In some ways, as some on this Namor list have said, Namor is rather much like Marvel's "Superman" in certain terms. Can't move planets of course, but I would think that Timely wanted someone like him, way back, but instead of outer space, it was *inner* space.

  2. #8702
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I agree 100% with everyone that finds what happened to Stingray awful and something that Namor would not do.

    Besides the general reprehensibility, there's the fact that Diane Arliss Newell was something of an old flame of Namor, and Namor has a long history of bending over backwards to keep his old girl friends happy. Murdering Diane's husband Stingray, the father of her children, will not make Diane happy.

    I am with those that think Namor is not himself, in part because of these reasons:


    1) Namor has never had completely black eyes -- except for Shark Namor, from Sub-Mariner the Depths, which isn't 616 Namor.

    2) Namor would never call Tiger Shark, who participated in the murder of Namor's father, brother.

    3) It is clear that Namor hated being possessed by the Phoenix, so why would he wear an outfit that is basically a variation on that?

    4) While I liked finally getting Namor's actual thoughts as narration, they weren't exactly consistent what Namor has thought and said before. Namor more often thinks of himself as a bridge between the surface world and underwater world, rather than the ruler of both. Neptune himself told him that. So his "holy war" isn't exactly endorsed by Neptune.

    5) I think Namor doesn't get enough credit for his strength and abilities by modern writers, especially underwater. He should be unbeatable underwater. That said, he's not the Hulk. Anger, righteous or otherwise, doesn't make him stronger. There's definitely something off in his fight with Avengers.

    6) Hungry Atlantean children are NOT going to runaway from Namor, or a meal. They were obviously scared of something we aren't seeing, that drove them to basically kill themselves on a surface beach, rather than face underwater.

    7) Except for Andromeda, everyone on Defenders of the Deep is a Namor foe -- though I'm not entire certain of the identity of two of them (the white haired guy above Man O'War and the crustacean), they don't exactly look like friends. I'm wondering if they are Suma Ket and one of these guys:

    I don't know a lot about namor, but this felt out of character for him to do.

    Impossible that Aaron will charater assassinate him, too many things worng with this story. Let's see what will happen

  3. #8703
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I WAS waiting for someone to come along and say "this". Yes, canon shows these things as true.

    In some ways, as some on this Namor list have said, Namor is rather much like Marvel's "Superman" in certain terms. Can't move planets of course, but I would think that Timely wanted someone like him, way back, but instead of outer space, it was *inner* space.
    Oberon, I don't know since how long you've been lurking on this thread (the last one with a high number of posts which hasn't been rebooted a few weeks ago?... reasons...) but Rev always speaks the truth!

    And it's always a pleasure to see her back!

    Another wonderful poster is ChiefJon (And I miss him so much). So here is a link for you - the first of a great series of writing he did: search for the other ones! http://www.them6p.com/2014/04/21/nam...vels-superman/
    - To Tammy and the Blue Rose !

  4. #8704
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I WAS waiting for someone to come along and say "this". Yes, canon shows these things as true.

    In some ways, as some on this Namor list have said, Namor is rather much like Marvel's "Superman" in certain terms. Can't move planets of course, but I would think that Timely wanted someone like him, way back, but instead of outer space, it was *inner* space.
    This is very true. Namor started out as counter to the Superman. Almost a fun house mirror of the Man of Steel. He was meant to be powerful and in the past he has always been shown to be, it really is only recently that has not been the case.

    Which is why I am more concern with how his personality is so far off. Everyone keeps saying "something must be up", however, they seem to be ignoring that for the past 10 years or so were Namor has been depicted pretty much the same way. The version of him in Avengers #9 is just taking it another step further. So unless Aarons end goal is to bring Namor back to the duel natured/noble king were the reader is forced to question Namor's true intent and motives, this "something is more slightly different from before the last time we say him only depicted as an evil son of b*tch" doesn't really fly.
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  5. #8705
    Mighty Member Lonewolf36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I agree 100% with everyone that finds what happened to Stingray awful and something that Namor would not do.

    Besides the general reprehensibility, there's the fact that Diane Arliss Newell was something of an old flame of Namor, and Namor has a long history of bending over backwards to keep his old girl friends happy. Murdering Diane's husband Stingray, the father of her children, will not make Diane happy.

    I am with those that think Namor is not himself, in part because of these reasons:


    1) Namor has never had completely black eyes -- except for Shark Namor, from Sub-Mariner the Depths, which isn't 616 Namor.

    2) Namor would never call Tiger Shark, who participated in the murder of Namor's father, brother.

    3) It is clear that Namor hated being possessed by the Phoenix, so why would he wear an outfit that is basically a variation on that?

    4) While I liked finally getting Namor's actual thoughts as narration, they weren't exactly consistent what Namor has thought and said before. Namor more often thinks of himself as a bridge between the surface world and underwater world, rather than the ruler of both. Neptune himself told him that. So his "holy war" isn't exactly endorsed by Neptune.

    5) I think Namor doesn't get enough credit for his strength and abilities by modern writers, especially underwater. He should be unbeatable underwater. That said, he's not the Hulk. Anger, righteous or otherwise, doesn't make him stronger. There's definitely something off in his fight with Avengers.

    6) Hungry Atlantean children are NOT going to runaway from Namor, or a meal. They were obviously scared of something we aren't seeing, that drove them to basically kill themselves on a surface beach, rather than face underwater.

    7) Except for Andromeda, everyone on Defenders of the Deep is a Namor foe -- though I'm not entire certain of the identity of two of them (the white haired guy above Man O'War and the crustacean), they don't exactly look like friends. I'm wondering if they are Suma Ket and one of these guys:

    Defenders of the Deep (Namor, Andromeda, Orka, Tiger Shark, Man-of-War and Echidna The crab creature may be Salamar the Sustainer http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix6/m...bs.htm#salamar and the white haired guy with the spines may be http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/zoga2.htm
    Last edited by Lonewolf36; 10-12-2018 at 01:54 PM.

  6. #8706
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Found that great, in depth article by John Cimino on the history of the Namor vs Hulk battles-- 45 of them! And most are a draw, but the finally tally is 4 fights won by each.

    http://hero-envy.blogspot.com/2012/0...b-mariner.html

    I love this answer from the editor.



    Sadly, Namor hasn't gotten the power creep both Thor and Hulk (and others) have gotten over the years. It seems most writers are unaware or use Namor's increase in strength due to water.
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  7. #8707
    Incredible Member Bunai's Avatar
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    Maybe if the 'damaged skin' thing had stuck- then Namor's up-and-down power levels would make sense.
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    Last edited by Crazed T'Challa x Emma x Namor shipper; Yesterday at 00:00 UM.

  8. #8708
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewolf36 View Post
    Defenders of the Deep (Namor, Andromeda, Orka, Tiger Shark, Man-of-War and Echidna The crab creature may be Salamar the Sustainer http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix6/m...bs.htm#salamar and the white haired guy with the spines may be http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/zoga2.htm

    CBR actually put up an article on Defenders of the Deep. They missed Man o War, as well as Salamar -- though I think it probably is one of his mutated crabs, instead of dead Byrrah's robot. Though I missed the Men-Fish, I thought they were just some of Echidna's monsters offspring.



    https://www.cbr.com/avengers-namor-u...explanation/2/





    I'd forgotten Zoga, but this guy looks more creepy than him -- he looks more like a magic user, rather than a fighter. I wonder if he could be one of the Aqueos? I also found this guy, Serestus.



    http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Serestus_(Earth-616)
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  9. #8709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I agree 100% with everyone that finds what happened to Stingray awful and something that Namor would not do.

    Besides the general reprehensibility, there's the fact that Diane Arliss Newell was something of an old flame of Namor, and Namor has a long history of bending over backwards to keep his old girl friends happy. Murdering Diane's husband Stingray, the father of her children, will not make Diane happy.

    I am with those that think Namor is not himself, in part because of these reasons:


    1) Namor has never had completely black eyes -- except for Shark Namor, from Sub-Mariner the Depths, which isn't 616 Namor.

    2) Namor would never call Tiger Shark, who participated in the murder of Namor's father, brother.

    3) It is clear that Namor hated being possessed by the Phoenix, so why would he wear an outfit that is basically a variation on that?

    4) While I liked finally getting Namor's actual thoughts as narration, they weren't exactly consistent what Namor has thought and said before. Namor more often thinks of himself as a bridge between the surface world and underwater world, rather than the ruler of both. Neptune himself told him that. So his "holy war" isn't exactly endorsed by Neptune.

    5) I think Namor doesn't get enough credit for his strength and abilities by modern writers, especially underwater. He should be unbeatable underwater. That said, he's not the Hulk. Anger, righteous or otherwise, doesn't make him stronger. There's definitely something off in his fight with Avengers.

    6) Hungry Atlantean children are NOT going to runaway from Namor, or a meal. They were obviously scared of something we aren't seeing, that drove them to basically kill themselves on a surface beach, rather than face underwater.

    7) Except for Andromeda, everyone on Defenders of the Deep is a Namor foe -- though I'm not entire certain of the identity of two of them (the white haired guy above Man O'War and the crustacean), they don't exactly look like friends. I'm wondering if they are Suma Ket and one of these guys:



    Those are some pretty interesting points.. But at the same time this is Jason Aaron we are talking about and he really cant seem to write anything without retconing the living crap out of it. And given the Narration it would either be retreaded territory of influenced behavior or someone who at least believes they are Namor.

    Just in general...its almost a pity since it was nice to see Namor treated as a powerhouse again not struggling with Black Panther or something but of course it had to have the out of character part with Stingray.

  10. #8710

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    I enjoyed Avengers issue #9. I enjoy when Namor is extremely powerful. I do understand the concerns of others in Namor's ruthless attack on Stingray. However, Namor's problem with the surface world has always been part of his characterization. Maybe Jason Aaron could have fleshed out the story a little more, but all the elements are there.
    "Only the Hulk could have attempted it! Only the Hulk could have been capable of it! Only the Hulk could have done it!" - Tales to Astonish #63

  11. #8711
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I do fits of lurking on some threads, than post incessantly.

    I am aware of Chief Jon's writings too.

    I have always liked Namor, since the late '60s. I'm not unduly 'conscienced' by Susan's attraction to him and some of the adventures they share. If Sue was in this picture I wonder what effect it would have. She's nearly the best at bringing him to reason, though I'm recalling during Hickman's run, when she had to punch him to make him stand down.

    I admit to not reading or caring much about his "Mutant" phase, and/or with the X-Men, mostly because I'm not very much a fan at all of the X.

    My most glorious days with Namor where actually in the '70s when he was in the Defenders with Doc, Patsy, Kyle and the Hulk. Great stories I remember forever (well, I think I do). During that era the Super-Villain Team up issues were great too. Much long ago for me, but comics were/are still pretty sophisticated.

    It would seem that in more recent years, a narrative has emerged that gives an almost plausible reason or three on why Namor seems to be going back to his earliest incarnation.

    [and in fact, as some noted, he appears 'teen-like' almost like some of the ret-cons and possibly original materials showed him to be. I'll go a step further: those black, watery eyes also hearken to these earliest appearances - - ARE WE DEALING with a clone of Namor, who is younger, more like his actual younger/ not full grown self ? ]

    Lastly, in all those years ago adventures, Namor would never have treated Walt, Diane's husband, this way.

  12. #8712
    Radioactive! Spiderfang's Avatar
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    What I want to know is are those his bare thighs/hips I'm seeing through those mesh tights? Usually I'm a fan of the green scaled trunks but this a look I can get behind.
    The city I once knew as home is teetering on the edge of radioactive oblivion

  13. #8713
    Fantastic Member PhoenixThanos's Avatar
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    I'd like to know why the sudden change in Namor from the current X-Men Red issues to Avengers# 9.
    I'd love to see what happened for Namor to be so ruthless.
    I enjoy anything Marvel cosmic, especially Thanos or Dark Phoenix related, loved the original Uncanny Avengers series.

    (Marvel/DC fan for 42+ years)

  14. #8714
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I do fits of lurking on some threads, than post incessantly.

    I am aware of Chief Jon's writings too.
    I can't say that I'm surprised, Oberon!

    About that issue of Avengers I think/hope/expect that there's more going on in the story than what we saw. (I trust my friends Reviresco and JK too...). If Aaron built something also about Atlantis and not only the falling Celestials it could be nice!
    - To Tammy and the Blue Rose !

  15. #8715
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I don't know a lot about namor, but this felt out of character for him to do.

    Impossible that Aaron will charater assassinate him, too many things worng with this story. Let's see what will happen
    Thank you. It is nice to see that fair and reasonable opinion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bunai View Post
    Maybe if the 'damaged skin' thing had stuck- then Namor's up-and-down power levels would make sense.
    The damaged skin, if you are talking about the reason for his original costume change back to the black suit in the 70s, would have been a major downgrade and ability loss. It would have basically added a greater handicap to his natural flaw of dehydration, i.e. he couldn't breathe air any longer. As it is, that storyline gives a reason for why Namor doesn't suffer from dehydration and power loss so much nowadays -- even if he is cured. Though sadly, it does mean he has to wear more clothes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Evelake View Post
    Those are some pretty interesting points.. But at the same time this is Jason Aaron we are talking about and he really cant seem to write anything without retconing the living crap out of it. And given the Narration it would either be retreaded territory of influenced behavior or someone who at least believes they are Namor.

    Just in general...its almost a pity since it was nice to see Namor treated as a powerhouse again not struggling with Black Panther or something but of course it had to have the out of character part with Stingray.
    I am not a huge fan of retcons and secret histories generally speaking. And something appears to be going on. It looks like Aaaron intends a role for Namor in Thor's world, perhaps even the War of the Realms.






    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma Irradiated Being View Post
    I enjoyed Avengers issue #9. I enjoy when Namor is extremely powerful. I do understand the concerns of others in Namor's ruthless attack on Stingray. However, Namor's problem with the surface world has always been part of his characterization. Maybe Jason Aaron could have fleshed out the story a little more, but all the elements are there.
    I agree that Namor is always going to have a beef with the surface world, but my objection is with the murder of Stingray -- and perhaps some of his team choices. I just don't see Namor doing that to Stingray.
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