Poison Ivy Appreciation 2018

[kjn]

Neat research.

TBF I don't think people have a problem with Ivy sharing panel time with Catwoman as the two women are usually portrayed as equals like any other superhero team-up such as Batman/Superman, Spider-Man/Human Torch etc.

However, when Ivy is associated with Harley, more often than not Ivy is literally reduced to Harley's supporting character, whether in a love interest capacity or just as a BFF. That dynamic is what throws people off and is annoying.

Thanks!

And yes, the analysis I did was about as crude as it gets to studying character dynamics. But if someone wants to go deeper and check into individual issues, it can provide a way to cut down on the initial grunt work. I still have the raw files around, if someone wants to get lists of possible issues to check. Just PM me, so I don't clutter the forum with long lists.

(I'd probably limit this to a fixed number of issues, with equal amounts of all three Sirens present, Ivy only, Ivy and Harley Quinn, and Ivy and Catwoman, and looking at how Ivy was presented in each of them both qualitatively and quantitatively.)

But yeah, I agree that I find Poison Ivy underused. Of the three female archetypes that the Sirens represent, Ivy comes from both the oldest and the one that has been developed and changed the most, and to me the most interesting.

ETA:

Maybe there is a sliver of hope? Tom King tweeted this out:

Hey! He says Ivy fans are polite and passionate! I think that speaks good of Ivy's fanbase.

On the other hand, there is something that sticks in my craw if everyone at the Sanctuary was brutally murdered but Ivy, about how plot armour and character relationships shape the story (on the other hand, I found the wholesale massacre was rather in poor taste as well; I think a proper locked room myster would have been more interesting).

And uh, apparently he compared Harley & Ivy's relationship to that of Lois and Clark: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...nn-lois-clark/

So... is Ivy supposed to be Kal-El here?

I'm not sure he compares Ivy and Harley to Lois and Clark, rather that their respective relationships have a similar importance to the DC universe. If one were to look into parallels within the relationship, I'd rather say that Lois and Ivy play similar roles as anchors (to humanity and morality respectively) for Superman and Harley Quinn.

I'm not sure I agree with him there, but the mere fact that he mentions Ivy and Harley in the same sentence as Lois and Clark says something.

[Confuzzled]

But yeah, I agree that I find Poison Ivy underused. Of the three female archetypes that the Sirens represent, Ivy comes from both the oldest and the one that has been developed and changed the most, and to me the most interesting.

The Sirens concept itself is very interesting, and it would have great potential now when all three characters have changed so much from when GCS ran in 2009-11. I wish it were resurrected. Unless we get an Ivy solo book by Stjepan Sejic which would be awesome.

Hey! He says Ivy fans are polite and passionate! I think that speaks good of Ivy's fanbase.

Then you would be even more pleased with Mikel Janin's reply:

https://twitter.com/mikeljanin/statu...88495997280256

On the other hand, there is something that sticks in my craw if everyone at the Sanctuary was brutally murdered but Ivy, about how plot armour and character relationships shape the story (on the other hand, I found the wholesale massacre was rather in poor taste as well; I think a proper locked room myster would have been more interesting).

I think Ivy's popularity will be the reason if she is spared but I agree that Ivy and most of the other Sanctuary patients shouldn't have been put in this situation in the first place.

I'm not sure he compares Ivy and Harley to Lois and Clark, rather that their respective relationships have a similar importance to the DC universe. If one were to look into parallels within the relationship, I'd rather say that Lois and Ivy play similar roles as anchors (to humanity and morality respectively) for Superman and Harley Quinn.

I'm not sure I agree with him there, but the mere fact that he mentions Ivy and Harley in the same sentence as Lois and Clark says something.

I kind of think Harley is in the Lois role by tethering Ivy to her humanity while Ivy is the Superman of the relationship by saving Harley when she's in peril.

It is an interesting comparison though and I'm surprised that King gave it so much thought. Hopefully it's not just lip service and he fleshes out the relationship.

[kjn]

The Sirens concept itself is very interesting, and it would have great potential now when all three characters have changed so much from when GCS ran in 2009-11. I wish it were resurrected. Unless we get an Ivy solo book by Stjepan Sejic which would be awesome.

Yeah, I think both the original Birds of Prey (with Oracle) and Gotham City Sirens were both valuable and interesting concepts. GCS suffered a lot from the extremely cheesecake art, but it was a serious attempt to write female friendship in a genre that has far too few women in it (both as creators and characters).

ETA: I agree that a Poison Ivy run by Sejic would be interesting, either solo, with Swamp Thing, or a Harley-Ivy run. I think he could do all very well. But even more I wish DC would do a real effort in bringing in more women creators. Declare 2020 to be the Women of DC year, where every female-led title would have at least a female writer.

I kind of think Harley is in the Lois role by tethering Ivy to her humanity while Ivy is the Superman of the relationship by saving Harley when she's in peril.

It is an interesting comparison though and I'm surprised that King gave it so much thought. Hopefully it's not just lip service and he fleshes out the relationship.

It says something about the storytelling potential of the Harley-Ivy relation that we point out all these things

Tom King's note also points out a bit on his strengths and interests as a writer. He seems much more into the relationship and dynamics between characters rather than the characters themselves or the story.

[MentalManipulator]

A possibility. Or maybe she felt a Sirens film would be riskier and bring about comparisons to Batman and Robin and the Catwoman solo movie if the characters are cheesecaked. Bloggers are claiming David Ayer's script was apparently weaker than the Birds of Prey script too, which was why execs decided to go with BoP instead.

I think it is a combination of factors. But we cannot not consider an actors ego and negotiation power when it comes to making these kind of commercial movies. Look at what Jennifer Lawrence made with the X-Men Franchise and the characters of Mystique.

[Green Ghost]

One can always find exceptions, but I have the same impression as Green Ghost and Mistah K88. It might thus be of interest to do some statistics, using the DC wikia.

Since New 52 (Prime Earth), Harley Quinn has 337 appearances, and Poison Ivy 158 appearances. Both are quite healthy numbers. I saved both lists as text and ran a diff; Harley Quinn had 264 unique appearances, and Poison Ivy 85. In 73 issues both appeared.

As a control, I added in Catwoman, with 232 appearances, as she is associated with both of them. Compared to Harley Quinn, Catwoman had 194 unique appearances, and Harley Quinn 299 unique appearances. They shared 38 appearances. Compared to Poison Ivy, Catwoman had 177 unique appearances, and Poison Ivy 103 unique appearances. They shared 55 appearances. In 30 issues, all three appeared, so 43 are Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn only, 25 are Poison Ivy and Catwoman only, and 8 are Harley Quinn and Catwoman only.

Note: this counts every appearance, even simple mentions, flashbacks, or being present in a single frame, up to being the protagonist or primary antagonist. More granular data would require manual checking of every issue.

From this, Poison Ivy is about as likely to appear alone as together with Harley Quinn, while Harley Quinn appears three times as often by herself compared to Poison Ivy, and Poison Ivy also often appears in association with Catwoman. Harley Quinn is in comparison more independent of both. But Poison Ivy is still associated more strongly with the Gotham City Sirens concept than either Catwoman or Harley Quinn, with only 60 appearances without either of them. The matching number for Harley Quinn is 254, and for Catwoman 169, if I'm keeping my numbers under control.

So I'd say that both views are correct here: Poison Ivy still has a decent independent presence, but she is very often used together in association with either Harley Quinn or Catwoman, or both.

Impressive work!

However, when Ivy is associated with Harley, more often than not Ivy is literally reduced to Harley's supporting character, whether in a love interest capacity or just as a BFF. That dynamic is what throws people off and is annoying. The closest parallel I have seen to this is again Emma Frost on the Marvel side. She is usually portrayed as a strong, standalone character in her own right, but when she was paired with Cyclops, some Emma fans felt she was being reduced to his supporting character. But those instances weren't anywhere to the same degree as how much Ivy is underplayed when she appears with Harley IMO.

This. Also DC shoving Harley down our throats on every occasion while further sideline Ivy and other characters. Something like this just annoys me:
sirens.jpg

[kjn]

Impressive work!

More keeping the numbers straight and finding the right way to filter the raw lists using Unix (though I guess you could do this stuff with Excel as well).

This. Also DC shoving Harley down our throats on every occasion while further sideline Ivy and other characters. Something like this just annoys me:

Harley Quinn is without a doubt the most marketable of the three characters, so plastering her name all over it makes sense in that regard. Kinda like "Batgirl and the Birds of Prey". Sure, in a perfect world DC wouldn't need to put the title like that, but if it sells another 5K copies that way, why not? It's more of a symptom of Harley Quinn's strength in the comic book market than a cause of it.

And, lets face it, however much we might decry how Harley Quinn dominates DC output or forces characters like Poison Ivy into specific roles, at least Harley Quinn came by her popularity honestly and wasn't forced down our throats. Not like Jason in Robinson's Wonder Woman run, which it seems like nobody wanted.

[Confuzzled]

This. Also DC shoving Harley down our throats on every occasion while further sideline Ivy and other characters. Something like this just annoys me:
sirens.jpg

Part of me is ready to give DC the benefit of the doubt assuming they did that to target the Margot Robbie movie fans who may not instantly recognise traditional Harley on the cover.

Also, it suddenly struck me. Did Guillem March model his Ivy on... Melania Trump?

[Agent Z]

Part of me is ready to give DC the benefit of the doubt assuming they did that to target the Margot Robbie movie fans who may not instantly recognise traditional Harley on the cover.

Also, it suddenly struck me. Did Guillem March model his Ivy on... Melania Trump?

I honestly don't see the resemblance.

[Confuzzled]

I honestly don't see the resemblance.

[Green Ghost]

Heroes in Crisis #2 SPOILERS:
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Like many have expected and what was hinted, as of Heroes in Crisis #2, Poison Ivy is dead!
We have a panel where Booster says she was killed along Arsenal, Blu Jay & Wally and Harley throwing a rose into Gotham river and regretting bringing Ivy to Sanctuary among other things.
They didn’t show a body or anything, but from what was said here we are supposed to believe Ivy was murdered.
Of course it could turn out to be fake-out later and Ivy somehow survived, but for now her status is dead.

[lucius121]

My only hope at the moment is that no body means she somehow survived.

[Rac7d*]

My only hope at the moment is that no body means she somehow survived.

she part plant mabey she pulled an Arkham knight

[Konja7]

Tom King say he doesn't plan to revive the death in Heroes in Crisis.

So, either Ivy is alive and hidden or we have to wait for another writer to resurrect her.

And uh, apparently he compared Harley & Ivy's relationship to that of Lois and Clark: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...nn-lois-clark/

So... is Ivy supposed to be Kal-El here?

I guess Tom King wants to make the "Death of Superman"

[gifted]

Awe, man. This makes me so upset. Wally, Roy, and Pamela are three of my top favorite DC characters and they're all dead. What do they have against me and/or red heads?

[Dylan Davison]

This may be a strange opinion, but isn't killing Ivy to move Harleys character forward, just fridging Ivy? Like it or not, they are kinda partners, and as we have seen in the past, killing a characters girlfriend to move that character forward is the wrong thing to do. Just thinking out loud here haha.