Impact of Marvel Heroes/Comics on Girls

[PwrdOn]

Regarding issues of comic book morality and gender politics, something which is not to be overlooked is that the plague of rampant sexism you see on the internet across the spectrum largely comes from a generation of men raised in a society where physical prowess counts for little and in which their main exposure to violence comes from movies, comics, and the like. So when you have all of these people idolizing this ideal that they cannot realistically attain in their own mundane lives, it completely erodes their self-confidence and forces them to retreat further and further into this ridiculous fantasy world that holds the last shred of their perceived masculinity and which they will ardently defend to the last Dorito-encrusted keystroke.

Taking all of this into consideration, why would anyone want to impart this same kind of mindset onto young girls? Given how badly men who have grown up with this attitude have faltered in modern society, it seems that the next generation of women is poised to dominate the future as long as they take ANY approach other than this one.

[Captain Wessex]

Regarding issues of comic book morality and gender politics, something which is not to be overlooked is that the plague of rampant sexism you see on the internet across the spectrum largely comes from a generation of men raised in a society where physical prowess counts for little and in which their main exposure to violence comes from movies, comics, and the like. So when you have all of these people idolizing this ideal that they cannot realistically attain in their own mundane lives, it completely erodes their self-confidence and forces them to retreat further and further into this ridiculous fantasy world that holds the last shred of their perceived masculinity and which they will ardently defend to the last Dorito-encrusted keystroke.

Taking all of this into consideration, why would anyone want to impart this same kind of mindset onto young girls? Given how badly men who have grown up with this attitude have faltered in modern society, it seems that the next generation of women is poised to dominate the future as long as they take ANY approach other than this one.

gods, way to harsh everyone's mellow.

[Tiamatty]

gods, way to harsh everyone's mellow.

On the other hand, it's a valid discussion to have: Is the inherent violence in superhero comics a problem? For my part, I'm inclined to think that it is. Not because it'll lead kids to think that violence is OK - that's patently absurd. No, I think it's actually a lot more insidious. I think it actually encourages a Good vs. Evil, Us vs. Them mindset. Superhero comics aren't unique in promoting this mindset - a lot of fiction does the same thing. And I think that sort of thing might actually promote a culture of stubbornness, an unwillingness to listen to what others have to say, to respect them and try to work with them. I think having more superhero comics where characters are willing to talk issues out might be beneficial.

I think the other thing is that fiction tends to reflect culture. I feel like superhero comics have maybe fallen behind culture in a lot of ways. There was a time where superhero stories were fairly populist, but now, there's an elitism to them. There's very few poor superheroes right now - All-New Ghost Rider, Nova, and that's about it. The stories are mostly about extraordinary people doing extraordinary things and living extraordinary lives, when they used to at least pretend the characters were normal people. There are some books that are moving away from that, and back to being about normal people trying to make a difference. All-New Ghost Rider, Nova, Ms. Marvel. And while Carol's always been extraordinary, even before she got her powers, KSD does actually write her as more of a normal person, which is nice. And I know KSD did question, around the time of the Sandy Hook shooting, the violence inherent in superhero comics. She doesn't seem to have come up with a solution - neither have I, and I'm not sure if there really is one, given the needs of the genre - but I'm glad she at least considered those questions.

[PwrdOn]

gods, way to harsh everyone's mellow.

You're right, from now on I will confine my pontifications to a more appropriate thread.

[Ascended]

Regarding issues of comic book morality and gender politics, something which is not to be overlooked is that the plague of rampant sexism you see on the internet across the spectrum largely comes from a generation of men raised in a society where physical prowess counts for little and in which their main exposure to violence comes from movies, comics, and the like. So when you have all of these people idolizing this ideal that they cannot realistically attain in their own mundane lives, it completely erodes their self-confidence and forces them to retreat further and further into this ridiculous fantasy world that holds the last shred of their perceived masculinity and which they will ardently defend to the last Dorito-encrusted keystroke.

Taking all of this into consideration, why would anyone want to impart this same kind of mindset onto young girls? Given how badly men who have grown up with this attitude have faltered in modern society, it seems that the next generation of women is poised to dominate the future as long as they take ANY approach other than this one.

Just noticed this guy has been banned. Hope it wasnt due to this conversation, since Im about to continue it. If no one else is interested in talking about this, though, let me know and we'll drop it. We can argue about the new costume instead.

So, this "rampant sexism" thing seems a poor example to me. Yes, there is certainly sexism among comicdom. But one quick Google search will bring up the same (or worse) among athletes, musicians, celebrities, businessmen and politicians, the wealthy and the poor, rednecks and cultured folk.....you see it in nearly every corner of the world, regardless of social standing or vocation. This of course is not excusing such behavior, but to say that comics somehow breed a culture of women haters seems....pointedly false. This is, after all, the fandom screaming for Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, and Black Widow solo films, who have embraced a female-only X-Men, made the Birds of Prey a solid corner of Gotham, and have accepted female solo titles like Batwoman, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, and so on. If some asshats at a convention yell obscenities at cosplaying women, they're the exception, not the rule. Every group has that lowest common denominator. Hell, the very existence of the Carol Corps largely puts this entire statement into a dubious light. If comicdom was such a negative place for women to be at, I doubt the Corps would have the traction or the numbers it does.

I'd also like to know what nation sees the majority of its violence in movies and television. This is a post-9/11, post-Arab Spring world. Violence is the word of the day, and the 24/7 news cycle brings it to us with up-to-the-second updates and high-definition images. If the majority of the violence you see is fictional, you clearly are not spending much time on CNN. Half the middle east is in chaos and flames, and you think that Superman punching Metallo is the problem? No, I think not.

As for this part, why would anyone want to impart this same kind of mindset onto young girls? I do. Im not raising a victim. The current mindset I see seems to tell kids that fighting, no matter what, is bad and you should rely on authority figures to fix your problems for you. No, not my kids. Schools may have done away with winners and losers but real life has not. Schools encourage kids to allow themselves to get beat up, but there wont be a cop on every corner to protect my kids when they grow up. There are still predators out there, and there likely always will be. My children will know how to defend themselves and how to conduct themselves properly, rather than relying on others to come to their rescue.

If you question how this mindset has worked out? I was raised on superheroes. Superman's example is why I donate to charity, help the homeless, and am as open minded about other lifestyles and cultures as I am. My son is being raised on these same values. He's only seven, but has broken up fights between kids at school, protected girls in his class from being beat up, helped others with their homework, given away his toys to the less fortunate, and all three of the teachers he's had thus far have said he's one of the most polite and considerate kids in his class. If this sounds like bragging, its not (wholly) intentional, Im just trying to express from firsthand experience how your opinion can be (and is,) proven wrong.

Hell, if nothing else, if what you say were true, superheroes wouldnt even be around anymore. McCarthy said the same things in the 50's. He was proven wrong then, and nothing has changed since.

[ed2962]

Just noticed this guy has been banned. Hope it wasnt due to this conversation, since Im about to continue it. If no one else is interested in talking about this, though, let me know and we'll drop it. We can argue about the new costume instead.

So, this "rampant sexism" thing seems a poor example to me. Yes, there is certainly sexism among comicdom. But one quick Google search will bring up the same (or worse) among athletes, musicians, celebrities, businessmen and politicians, the wealthy and the poor, rednecks and cultured folk.....you see it in nearly every corner of the world, regardless of social standing or vocation. This of course is not excusing such behavior, but to say that comics somehow breed a culture of women haters seems....pointedly false. This is, after all, the fandom screaming for Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, and Black Widow solo films, who have embraced a female-only X-Men, made the Birds of Prey a solid corner of Gotham, and have accepted female solo titles like Batwoman, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, and so on. If some asshats at a convention yell obscenities at cosplaying women, they're the exception, not the rule. Every group has that lowest common denominator. Hell, the very existence of the Carol Corps largely puts this entire statement into a dubious light. If comicdom was such a negative place for women to be at, I doubt the Corps would have the traction or the numbers it does.

I'd also like to know what nation sees the majority of its violence in movies and television. This is a post-9/11, post-Arab Spring world. Violence is the word of the day, and the 24/7 news cycle brings it to us with up-to-the-second updates and high-definition images. If the majority of the violence you see is fictional, you clearly are not spending much time on CNN. Half the middle east is in chaos and flames, and you think that Superman punching Metallo is the problem? No, I think not.

As for this part, why would anyone want to impart this same kind of mindset onto young girls? I do. Im not raising a victim. The current mindset I see seems to tell kids that fighting, no matter what, is bad and you should rely on authority figures to fix your problems for you. No, not my kids. Schools may have done away with winners and losers but real life has not. Schools encourage kids to allow themselves to get beat up, but there wont be a cop on every corner to protect my kids when they grow up. There are still predators out there, and there likely always will be. My children will know how to defend themselves and how to conduct themselves properly, rather than relying on others to come to their rescue.

If you question how this mindset has worked out? I was raised on superheroes. Superman's example is why I donate to charity, help the homeless, and am as open minded about other lifestyles and cultures as I am. My son is being raised on these same values. He's only seven, but has broken up fights between kids at school, protected girls in his class from being beat up, helped others with their homework, given away his toys to the less fortunate, and all three of the teachers he's had thus far have said he's one of the most polite and considerate kids in his class. If this sounds like bragging, its not (wholly) intentional, Im just trying to express from firsthand experience how your opinion can be (and is,) proven wrong.

Hell, if nothing else, if what you say were true, superheroes wouldnt even be around anymore. McCarthy said the same things in the 50's. He was proven wrong then, and nothing has changed since.

I agree with both you and Tiamatty in that this is a subject worth discussing...I think PwrdOn might have painted fans (particularly male fans) with too broad of a brush, but he opened up an interesting door. I'm kinda reminded of Daredevil #191 from Frank Miller's first run.

The plot opens with DD in Bullseye's hospital room and DD forces him to play Russian Roulette. While they are in the room, DD tells a story involving a school shooting by a fan of his. The story also touches on child abuse and alienation. I can't remember the exact dialogue but it was something like, "What am I really teaching people? Never give up? That the calvery is always on it's way? Or...that if you're fast enuff and and think with your fists you can get what you want?"

Now, I don't think that's what the majority of writers and artists are going for, but it's an important thing to consider. What message are sending out? Most of the time I think the creative teams are just doing what they think is exciting for the reader. But I think there's also hacks who play to the lowest common denominator and are like, "Whatever, these jerks will buy anything long as it has Batverine in it, so here you go.."

As far superheros in general, I think they can represent many ideas beyond just punching people. Ideas like self sacrifice, defending the defenseless, striving for excellence. Taking a negative and turning it into a positive, being successful despite being viewed as a misfit...these are all ideas and concepts that people can gain inspiration from ( well it's done well of course). This is why so many fans get upset when their favorite characters aren't behaving properly heroic.

[jackolover]

What? Are women unaware of the tenets of heroism? To dismiss super hero comics as some form of male indulgence, fails to recognise heroism. What are female tenets of heroism, then? Any different to male versions?

[jackolover]

I agree with both you and Tiamatty in that this is a subject worth discussing...I think PwrdOn might have painted fans (particularly male fans) with too broad of a brush, but he opened up an interesting door. I'm kinda reminded of Daredevil #191 from Frank Miller's first run.

The plot opens with DD in Bullseye's hospital room and DD forces him to play Russian Roulette. While they are in the room, DD tells a story involving a school shooting by a fan of his. The story also touches on child abuse and alienation. I can't remember the exact dialogue but it was something like, "What am I really teaching people? Never give up? That the calvery is always on it's way? Or...that if you're fast enuff and and think with your fists you can get what you want?"

Now, I don't think that's what the majority of writers and artists are going for, but it's an important thing to consider. What message are sending out? Most of the time I think the creative teams are just doing what they think is exciting for the reader. But I think there's also hacks who play to the lowest common denominator and are like, "Whatever, these jerks will buy anything long as it has Batverine in it, so here you go.."

As far superheros in general, I think they can represent many ideas beyond just punching people. Ideas like self sacrifice, defending the defenseless, striving for excellence. Taking a negative and turning it into a positive, being successful despite being viewed as a misfit...these are all ideas and concepts that people can gain inspiration from ( well it's done well of course). This is why so many fans get upset when their favorite characters aren't behaving properly heroic.

It may be an interesting idea to think that writers and editors just cater to the lowest denominator and that in some primal way, any mention of Batverine is what sells. If that were the case, then we are all victims of being manipulated by our self indulgence of a simplistic formula devised by a Marvel Illuminati, greedily rubbing there hands together for printing gold bank notes, in the form of Marvel Comics. But it's hardly a lucrative business nowadays. The companies can hardly keep there head above water, unless they find something more versatile than the last story. I doubt there is that certain a formula, otherwise there wouldn't be so many critics on these boards, and such a small readership.

[Kencana]

What? Are women unaware of the tenets of heroism? To dismiss super hero comics as some form of male indulgence, fails to recognise heroism. What are female tenets of heroism, then? Any different to male versions?

Well... what I get from reading Marvel is male heroes get more spotlight and interesting villains while female superhero get sidelined. Let's be honest. Make a list "Top 10 Marvel Superheroes" or "Top 10 Marvel Supervillains". I bet those list will be filled with man at rank 1, 2, 3. It's very rare for female character dominating top list unless it's specified like "top 10 superheroines". Is it a proof that man bad at writing woman cause people prefer male superheroes? Nah, I don't think so.

I'm saying this as Asian woman and huge fan of several superheroines. Comic book is not feminist and they don't try to be. Don't get me wrong. I like Marvel and think they're awesome. Personally I never read comic book for representation. I read it for pure entertainment. I can accept fanservice and mild sexism as long as it's not too much. If there's strong female character it's a bonus.

[Rok]

Regarding issues of comic book morality and gender politics, something which is not to be overlooked is that the plague of rampant sexism you see on the internet across the spectrum largely comes from a generation of men raised in a society where physical prowess counts for little and in which their main exposure to violence comes from movies, comics, and the like. So when you have all of these people idolizing this ideal that they cannot realistically attain in their own mundane lives, it completely erodes their self-confidence and forces them to retreat further and further into this ridiculous fantasy world that holds the last shred of their perceived masculinity and which they will ardently defend to the last Dorito-encrusted keystroke.

Taking all of this into consideration, why would anyone want to impart this same kind of mindset onto young girls? Given how badly men who have grown up with this attitude have faltered in modern society, it seems that the next generation of women is poised to dominate the future as long as they take ANY approach other than this one.

The link between violence and video games has not been found, and it is not for the lack of trying. So I am going to ask you, do you have any evidence for this hypothesis? Are we as readers are unable to filter comics from reality?

You might be right, but I am one of those that do not believe anything only based on assumptions and you are making a lot of assumptions.

[ed2962]

It may be an interesting idea to think that writers and editors just cater to the lowest denominator and that in some primal way, any mention of Batverine is what sells. If that were the case, then we are all victims of being manipulated by our self indulgence of a simplistic formula devised by a Marvel Illuminati, greedily rubbing there hands together for printing gold bank notes, in the form of Marvel Comics. But it's hardly a lucrative business nowadays. The companies can hardly keep there head above water, unless they find something more versatile than the last story. I doubt there is that certain a formula, otherwise there wouldn't be so many critics on these boards, and such a small readership.

I don't think that they ALL just cater to the lowest common denominator. I think there's many talented people in the industry that are doing the best they can and have a passion for the medium. However, Spiderman and Logan weren't put in two different Avengers titles cuz someone had a deep personal story to tell, it was done to see if they could goose sales ( and it worked). You're right when you say the industry sales are struggling, but that's led to Marvel getting really conservative with some titles. Up until really recently, they'd rather publish five Avengers titles rather than 3 Avengers a Kazar and a Gamora, or whatever.

[ed2962]

What i kinda disagree with the OP on is the idea that the only people who read comics are male shut-ins who lead solely sedentary lives. Believe it or not, there are guys out there that like sports, go on dates, have friends, etc AND like comics at the same time. Everybody isn't Simpsons Comic Book Guy or Ed Norton in Fight Club. And I don't really agree that in today's society there are no places for guys to express themselves physically. There's no law stopping us from trying out to be a linebacker, nothing stopping us from being a Marine or going rock climbing. Nothing stopping us from playing thrash metal or gansta rap....

To say that comics are the only outlet males have to express their masculinity, that might be true for some guys, but I doubt that it's an overwhelming majority.


As far as how some of the message that are in cape comics affect girls/women...sure you don't what girls to think that the best way to solve problems is with a machine gun or that girls can be heroes as long their ta-ta's are hanging out. But I think the positive aspects of the genre can be encouraging for anyone male or female that picks up a well done superhero comic.

[jackolover]

Well... what I get from reading Marvel is male heroes get more spotlight and interesting villains while female superhero get sidelined. Let's be honest. Make a list "Top 10 Marvel Superheroes" or "Top 10 Marvel Supervillains". I bet those list will be filled with man at rank 1, 2, 3. It's very rare for female character dominating top list unless it's specified like "top 10 superheroines". Is it a proof that man bad at writing woman cause people prefer male superheroes? Nah, I don't think so.

I'm saying this as Asian woman and huge fan of several superheroines. Comic book is not feminist and they don't try to be. Don't get me wrong. I like Marvel and think they're awesome. Personally I never read comic book for representation. I read it for pure entertainment. I can accept fanservice and mild sexism as long as it's not too much. If there's strong female character it's a bonus.

I can even except Marvel are patriarchal in respect to female representation of super heroines in their books. What I would have difficulty with is females having a separate definition of what is heroic and give a different interpretation to a male perspective. I think heroism is universal, and has no male or female slant to it.

[Kencana]

I can even except Marvel are patriarchal in respect to female representation of super heroines in their books. What I would have difficulty with is females having a separate definition of what is heroic and give a different interpretation to a male perspective. I think heroism is universal, and has no male or female slant to it.

Of course heroism in universal. Personally, I never dismiss super hero comics as some form of male indulgence. Why do woman think that? Hmmm.... I cannot speak for every woman so I will give you a reason. Woman think superhero is a male self-insert power fantasy. Take Peter Parker (Spider-man) for example. He's just a nerd kid. Suddenly he has superpower and became superhero. As Spider-man, almost every hot woman fall in love with him. He's even married to hot supermodel. Whoa. Of course teenage guy projecting himself into Peter Parker. Iron Man is a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist.

So what's their problem? The problem is there's not much "female power fantasy". Can you imagine if Spider-man were a girl? Ugly nerd girl suddenly became superhero and almost every hot guy fall in love with her. Can you imagine such a character became popular among boys? Nah. I don't think so. If anything, she will bashed. That's why there's no female equivalent of Peter Parker. Or Iron Man. And woman jealous. They jealous because man can have power fantasy and being praised while female superheroes get sidelined. Don't believe me? Just look at Black Widow/Punisher youtube comment. Many people surprised and don't believe that Black Widow can be as strong as Punisher. A man even said that the only good point of female superheroine is their hot body. So women jealous because men can be the strongest/smartest people in the world and nobody question it. But as soon as female character do the same thing as their male counterpart, they get trashed.

[jackolover]

Of course heroism in universal. Personally, I never dismiss super hero comics as some form of male indulgence. Why do woman think that? Hmmm.... I cannot speak for every woman so I will give you a reason. Woman think superhero is a male self-insert power fantasy. Take Peter Parker (Spider-man) for example. He's just a nerd kid. Suddenly he have superpower and became superhero. As Spider-man, almost every hot woman fall in love with him. He even married to hot supermodel. Whoa. Of course teenage guy projecting himself to Peter Parker. Iron Man is a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist.

So what's their problem? The problem is there's not much "female power fantasy". Can you imagine if Spider-man were a girl? Ugly nerd girl suddenly became superhero and almost every hot guy fall in love with her. Can you imagine such a character became popular among boys? Nah. I don't think so. If anything, she will bashed. That's why there's no female equivalent of Peter Parker. Or Iron Man. And woman jealous. They jealous because man can have power fantasy and being praised while female superheroes get sidelined. Don't believe me? Just look at Black Widow/Punisher youtube comment. Many people surprised and don't believe that Black Widow can be as strong as Punisher. A man even said that the only good point of female superheroine is their hot body. So women jealous because men can be the strongest/smartest people in the world and nobody question it. But as soon as female character do the same thing as their male counterpart, they get trashed.

What is the female fantasy, then? Isn't what KSD is doing with Ms Marvel, the female fantasy? A self-assured woman who can handle situations of violence thrown at her, and she faces it with violence?