Impact of Marvel Heroes/Comics on Girls

[Kencana]

What is the female fantasy, then? Isn't what KSD is doing with Ms Marvel, the female fantasy? A self-assured woman who can handle situations of violence thrown at her, and she faces it with violence?

Uhm... what? I have yet to read Ms Marvel or Captain Marvel. If by KSD you mean Kelly Sue, then she's writing Captain Marvel. As for female power fantasy, women are not hive mind so I cannot really answer your question. The same treatment as male character, maybe? Hot male love interest? Muscular superheroine? Ughhh... I don't know. I'm fairly new to comic. I wrote that rant based on my experience from tumblr.

[dragonmp93]

Of course heroism in universal. Personally, I never dismiss super hero comics as some form of male indulgence. Why do woman think that? Hmmm.... I cannot speak for every woman so I will give you a reason. Woman think superhero is a male self-insert power fantasy. Take Peter Parker (Spider-man) for example. He's just a nerd kid. Suddenly he has superpower and became superhero. As Spider-man, almost every hot woman fall in love with him. He's even married to hot supermodel. Whoa. Of course teenage guy projecting himself into Peter Parker. Iron Man is a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist.

So what's their problem? The problem is there's not much "female power fantasy". Can you imagine if Spider-man were a girl? Ugly nerd girl suddenly became superhero and almost every hot guy fall in love with her. Can you imagine such a character became popular among boys? Nah. I don't think so. If anything, she will bashed. That's why there's no female equivalent of Peter Parker. Or Iron Man. And woman jealous. They jealous because man can have power fantasy and being praised while female superheroes get sidelined. Don't believe me? Just look at Black Widow/Punisher youtube comment. Many people surprised and don't believe that Black Widow can be as strong as Punisher. A man even said that the only good point of female superheroine is their hot body. So women jealous because men can be the strongest/smartest people in the world and nobody question it. But as soon as female character do the same thing as their male counterpart, they get trashed.

Well everyone knows that youtube's comment section is humanity's cesspool, and most of those kind of comments are from trolls that want to start a flame war.

[CaTigeReptile]

Of course heroism in universal. Personally, I never dismiss super hero comics as some form of male indulgence. Why do woman think that? Hmmm.... I cannot speak for every woman so I will give you a reason. Woman think superhero is a male self-insert power fantasy. Take Peter Parker (Spider-man) for example. He's just a nerd kid. Suddenly he has superpower and became superhero. As Spider-man, almost every hot woman fall in love with him. He's even married to hot supermodel. Whoa. Of course teenage guy projecting himself into Peter Parker. Iron Man is a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist.

So what's their problem? The problem is there's not much "female power fantasy". Can you imagine if Spider-man were a girl? Ugly nerd girl suddenly became superhero and almost every hot guy fall in love with her. Can you imagine such a character became popular among boys? Nah. I don't think so. If anything, she will bashed. That's why there's no female equivalent of Peter Parker. Or Iron Man. And woman jealous. They jealous because man can have power fantasy and being praised while female superheroes get sidelined. Don't believe me? Just look at Black Widow/Punisher youtube comment. Many people surprised and don't believe that Black Widow can be as strong as Punisher. A man even said that the only good point of female superheroine is their hot body. So women jealous because men can be the strongest/smartest people in the world and nobody question it. But as soon as female character do the same thing as their male counterpart, they get trashed.

There's a lot of truth to this, at least for me personally. I think the idea of a female power fantasy being different from a male's or "female heroism" being different is a manifestation of that rather handily disproved idea that "men are from mars and women are from venus."

Power is power: control, high rank in the hierarchy, agency, the ability to get others to do what you want them to as opposed to having to do what THEY want you to do. Yes, that includes being fawned over by (sex of your choice). Not being helpless or vulnerable.

Heroism is heroism: bravery, protecting others, honor, glory, and power: again, the ability to lead others and protect them and not need protection. Not being helpless or vulnerable.

If you look at what are considered "masculine" traits and "feminine" traits, you see something quite disturbing: traits considered to be good, like bravery, toughness, stoicism, focus/seriousness, physical strength, leadership, logic, decision-making, independence and power/control etc. are all associated with men and what men strive to be. The traits that women are supposed to be, or are associated with, are generally considered weaknesses: nurturing, emotional/empathetic, soft, chaste (yet also sexually alluring), shallow/frivolous . . . you won't see that set of traits defining a hero, male or female, in any story, because they are actually the lack of strong traits. In fact, think about what this kind of eye-rolling "men afraid of losing their masculinity" phrase even means. Has anyone else ever noticed that there's no word for "losing your femininity" or even that existing as a popular concept (outside of the idea of "no longer being attractive to men")? I as a woman have not.

Femininity is basically defined by a lack of (often if not mostly celebrated) traits. Here's another way to think of it: the number of female surgeons increasing is a victory for feminism. So is the number of male nurses increasing. Why? Because women are forcing (word used on purpose) their way more and more into male-dominated fields/activities (comic books being the one OP said even though women have always read comic books), which is awesome and obvious. So then why is males going into female-dominated fields/activities also a victory? Because it means men/culture are viewing these fields to be less and less humiliating/weak because of their traditional association with women.

So no one should really be surprised to learn that women want power and control and that women want to, just as Kencana said, see people like them get a shot at the power fantasy too. Is it unladylike to want these things? Of course. Women are not 'supposed to,' in culture, want power. Is it unnatural for women/girls to want the same power fantasy, in comics or otherwise, that men/boys get? Well it's certainly not unnatural for me, and I'm a woman. It's certainly not unnatural for a huge bunch of women that I know or have observed/seen/heard of.

You also do have to keep in mind that humans are extremely malleable, so that's why (imo) "supposed to be ____" and "naturally are ____" get so mixed up and blurry, but it's also the reason why those blanks change so much and differ so much from place to place/time to time.

For instance, in power-fantasy fictional scenarios, like, say, Mortal Kombat or some other fighting game, one of my favorite excuses I've heard a friend make about why there aren't as many female characters is actually maybe a familiar one to others: the 'realism' factor. "Well, if this is a tournament of the best physical fighters in existence, realistically males tend to be stronger and faster than females, so females would be rarer." So that would break the 4th wall for you in a world where characters routinely get stabbed through and only some drops of blood come out, everyone uses magic and there's an anthropomorphic reptilian ninjas fighting a blind sword-wielder using telekinesis?

(In my opinion, this argument also stands for "realistic racism/sexism" that is gratuitous instead of a plot-point in historical fantasies, as an aside)

Wait, what was I talking about?

Oh yeah. To Jackolover: Yes, that about sums it up - I know I'm not "supposed to" want it, technically no one male or female is "supposed to" want it though it's especially not considered "female," but yeah, welcome to every custom female character I've ever made in any game that allows it: I want to read a book with a badass woman with a giant ugly scar on her face in a powerful/nonsexy outfit and two beefcake guys dangling from each arm even while she's using them to bash skulls. In fact to simplify what I think I'm talking about, the answer is mainly that people are people and badass is badass.

(The scientific studies I briefly mention are studies that have come to the conclusion that the variability of characteristics among people of the same gender are higher than the general variability in between genders, i.e. "some men and some women are from mars; some men and some women are from venus")

[jackolover]

Uhm... what? I have yet to read Ms Marvel or Captain Marvel. If by KSD you mean Kelly Sue, then she's writing Captain Marvel. As for female power fantasy, women are not hive mind so I cannot really answer your question. The same treatment as male character, maybe? Hot male love interest? Muscular superheroine? Ughhh... I don't know. I'm fairly new to comic. I wrote that rant based on my experience from tumblr.

Yeah, I meant Kelly Sue and Cap Marvel. The same treatment as male characters is my answer too.

[jackolover]

There's a lot of truth to this, at least for me personally. I think the idea of a female power fantasy being different from a male's or "female heroism" being different is a manifestation of that rather handily disproved idea that "men are from mars and women are from venus."

Power is power: control, high rank in the hierarchy, agency, the ability to get others to do what you want them to as opposed to having to do what THEY want you to do. Yes, that includes being fawned over by (sex of your choice). Not being helpless or vulnerable.

Heroism is heroism: bravery, protecting others, honor, glory, and power: again, the ability to lead others and protect them and not need protection. Not being helpless or vulnerable.

If you look at what are considered "masculine" traits and "feminine" traits, you see something quite disturbing: traits considered to be good, like bravery, toughness, stoicism, focus/seriousness, physical strength, leadership, logic, decision-making, independence and power/control etc. are all associated with men and what men strive to be. The traits that women are supposed to be, or are associated with, are generally considered weaknesses: nurturing, emotional/empathetic, soft, chaste (yet also sexually alluring), shallow/frivolous . . . you won't see that set of traits defining a hero, male or female, in any story, because they are actually the lack of strong traits. In fact, think about what this kind of eye-rolling "men afraid of losing their masculinity" phrase even means. Has anyone else ever noticed that there's no word for "losing your femininity" or even that existing as a popular concept (outside of the idea of "no longer being attractive to men")? I as a woman have not.

Femininity is basically defined by a lack of (often if not mostly celebrated) traits. Here's another way to think of it: the number of female surgeons increasing is a victory for feminism. So is the number of male nurses increasing. Why? Because women are forcing (word used on purpose) their way more and more into male-dominated fields/activities (comic books being the one OP said even though women have always read comic books), which is awesome and obvious. So then why is males going into female-dominated fields/activities also a victory? Because it means men/culture are viewing these fields to be less and less humiliating/weak because of their traditional association with women.

So no one should really be surprised to learn that women want power and control and that women want to, just as Kencana said, see people like them get a shot at the power fantasy too. Is it unladylike to want these things? Of course. Women are not 'supposed to,' in culture, want power. Is it unnatural for women/girls to want the same power fantasy, in comics or otherwise, that men/boys get? Well it's certainly not unnatural for me, and I'm a woman. It's certainly not unnatural for a huge bunch of women that I know or have observed/seen/heard of.

You also do have to keep in mind that humans are extremely malleable, so that's why (imo) "supposed to be ____" and "naturally are ____" get so mixed up and blurry, but it's also the reason why those blanks change so much and differ so much from place to place/time to time.

For instance, in power-fantasy fictional scenarios, like, say, Mortal Kombat or some other fighting game, one of my favorite excuses I've heard a friend make about why there aren't as many female characters is actually maybe a familiar one to others: the 'realism' factor. "Well, if this is a tournament of the best physical fighters in existence, realistically males tend to be stronger and faster than females, so females would be rarer." So that would break the 4th wall for you in a world where characters routinely get stabbed through and only some drops of blood come out, everyone uses magic and there's an anthropomorphic reptilian ninjas fighting a blind sword-wielder using telekinesis?

(In my opinion, this argument also stands for "realistic racism/sexism" that is gratuitous instead of a plot-point in historical fantasies, as an aside)

Wait, what was I talking about?

Oh yeah. To Jackolover: Yes, that about sums it up - I know I'm not "supposed to" want it, technically no one male or female is "supposed to" want it though it's especially not considered "female," but yeah, welcome to every custom female character I've ever made in any game that allows it: I want to read a book with a badass woman with a giant ugly scar on her face in a powerful/nonsexy outfit and two beefcake guys dangling from each arm even while she's using them to bash skulls. In fact to simplify what I think I'm talking about, the answer is mainly that people are people and badass is badass.

(The scientific studies I briefly mention are studies that have come to the conclusion that the variability of characteristics among people of the same gender are higher than the general variability in between genders, i.e. "some men and some women are from mars; some men and some women are from venus")

I like the thought and effort put into your reply. I don't tend to get into the detail of a reply these days, so I appreciate when someone else goes to the trouble. I have yet to see a peculiar female super hero fantasy that differs from the male fantasy, myself, so these arguments ring true.

But if there is someone out there who does have a different view on this female super hero fantasy discussion, I would certainly like to hear it.

[dragonmp93]

There's a lot of truth to this, at least for me personally. I think the idea of a female power fantasy being different from a male's or "female heroism" being different is a manifestation of that rather handily disproved idea that "men are from mars and women are from venus."

Power is power: control, high rank in the hierarchy, agency, the ability to get others to do what you want them to as opposed to having to do what THEY want you to do. Yes, that includes being fawned over by (sex of your choice). Not being helpless or vulnerable.

Heroism is heroism: bravery, protecting others, honor, glory, and power: again, the ability to lead others and protect them and not need protection. Not being helpless or vulnerable.

If you look at what are considered "masculine" traits and "feminine" traits, you see something quite disturbing: traits considered to be good, like bravery, toughness, stoicism, focus/seriousness, physical strength, leadership, logic, decision-making, independence and power/control etc. are all associated with men and what men strive to be. The traits that women are supposed to be, or are associated with, are generally considered weaknesses: nurturing, emotional/empathetic, soft, chaste (yet also sexually alluring), shallow/frivolous . . . you won't see that set of traits defining a hero, male or female, in any story, because they are actually the lack of strong traits. In fact, think about what this kind of eye-rolling "men afraid of losing their masculinity" phrase even means. Has anyone else ever noticed that there's no word for "losing your femininity" or even that existing as a popular concept (outside of the idea of "no longer being attractive to men")? I as a woman have not.

Femininity is basically defined by a lack of (often if not mostly celebrated) traits. Here's another way to think of it: the number of female surgeons increasing is a victory for feminism. So is the number of male nurses increasing. Why? Because women are forcing (word used on purpose) their way more and more into male-dominated fields/activities (comic books being the one OP said even though women have always read comic books), which is awesome and obvious. So then why is males going into female-dominated fields/activities also a victory? Because it means men/culture are viewing these fields to be less and less humiliating/weak because of their traditional association with women.

So no one should really be surprised to learn that women want power and control and that women want to, just as Kencana said, see people like them get a shot at the power fantasy too. Is it unladylike to want these things? Of course. Women are not 'supposed to,' in culture, want power. Is it unnatural for women/girls to want the same power fantasy, in comics or otherwise, that men/boys get? Well it's certainly not unnatural for me, and I'm a woman. It's certainly not unnatural for a huge bunch of women that I know or have observed/seen/heard of.

You also do have to keep in mind that humans are extremely malleable, so that's why (imo) "supposed to be ____" and "naturally are ____" get so mixed up and blurry, but it's also the reason why those blanks change so much and differ so much from place to place/time to time.

For instance, in power-fantasy fictional scenarios, like, say, Mortal Kombat or some other fighting game, one of my favorite excuses I've heard a friend make about why there aren't as many female characters is actually maybe a familiar one to others: the 'realism' factor. "Well, if this is a tournament of the best physical fighters in existence, realistically males tend to be stronger and faster than females, so females would be rarer." So that would break the 4th wall for you in a world where characters routinely get stabbed through and only some drops of blood come out, everyone uses magic and there's an anthropomorphic reptilian ninjas fighting a blind sword-wielder using telekinesis?

(In my opinion, this argument also stands for "realistic racism/sexism" that is gratuitous instead of a plot-point in historical fantasies, as an aside)

Wait, what was I talking about?

Oh yeah. To Jackolover: Yes, that about sums it up - I know I'm not "supposed to" want it, technically no one male or female is "supposed to" want it though it's especially not considered "female," but yeah, welcome to every custom female character I've ever made in any game that allows it: I want to read a book with a badass woman with a giant ugly scar on her face in a powerful/nonsexy outfit and two beefcake guys dangling from each arm even while she's using them to bash skulls. In fact to simplify what I think I'm talking about, the answer is mainly that people are people and badass is badass.

(The scientific studies I briefly mention are studies that have come to the conclusion that the variability of characteristics among people of the same gender are higher than the general variability in between genders, i.e. "some men and some women are from mars; some men and some women are from venus")

You mean like a lady deadpool series ?

[CaTigeReptile]

You mean like a lady deadpool series ?

Sure, except without the character being "the female version" of a male character.

How about Scarlet Witch? Imagine the first panel: "Stereotypical story role gender archetype expectations shall be reversed!"

Second panel: two-page spread of Wanda in the situation I described.

[ed2962]

Just throwing it out there, I remember seeing an interview with Lindsey Wagner on PBS some months ago. On it she mentioned telling the writers of Bionic Woman she didn't want to be written as a man just in a skirt.

Of course there's Marston's original view of Wonder Woman as someone who was as strong as Superman, but also displayed "feminine" traits like beauty and compassion as virtues not weaknesses.

Over in the X-men boards someone started a thread about Claremont's women, I'd say not only was he able to make the women strong without falling on " I'm a man writing Grr Women's lib" cliches, but he also made a point of showing the female characters having strong and stable relationships with each other.

It's actually not too difficult to write a female character as bad-ass. The difficult part is writing them as complex and varied characters and then incorporating the nuances of how women/girls may or may not have to navigate through society in a superhero narrative.




(and yeah, I know...it's hard writing complex men too)

[CaTigeReptile]

Just throwing it out there, I remember seeing an interview with Lindsey Wagner on PBS some months ago. On it she mentioned telling the writers of Bionic Woman she didn't want to be written as a man just in a skirt.

Of course there's Marston's original view of Wonder Woman as someone who was as strong as Superman, but also displayed "feminine" traits like beauty and compassion as virtues not weaknesses.

Over in the X-men boards someone started a thread about Claremont's women, I'd say not only was he able to make the women strong without falling on " I'm a man writing Grr Women's lib" cliches, but he also made a point of showing the female characters having strong and stable relationships with each other.

It's actually not too difficult to write a female character as bad-ass. The difficult part is writing them as complex and varied characters and then incorporating the nuances of how women/girls may or may not have to navigate through society in a superhero narrative.




(and yeah, I know...it's hard writing complex men too)

Did Lindsey Wagner explain what she meant? Because in order to be true to what she wants, you'd have to delineate those inherent qualities. When you see most "badass" women, they're not power-fantasies. They're still fantasies aimed towards men: they're sexy and sultry and in high heels and skirts, and the real hero of the story - the rugged male, whoever he is - still gets her in the end. Oh, and she always has to seduce her way out of a situation, too. That's not a hero designed with my demographic in mind. Does a skirt make someone a woman? Maybe that's what she was getting at. Like, if you ask me personally - I can't speak for every woman, nor can Lindsey, of course, but - Sigourney Weaver in Alien, and Angelina Jolie in Salt (yes) are some of the most spectacularly awesome female action hero leads in movies I've seen. Both roles were actually originally written for men.

Given that men can have beauty and compassion too, and since those are as you say virtues, would that not just make her a well-rounded character in general? Why wouldn't Superman also inherently have those virtues?

Answer: because they are (or were at the time) "feminine virtues." Men don't "need" them. (This is of course patently untrue.)

What I agree with you most on is that (also in my opinion) the biggest distinctions between men and women (and all other groups) are not from their (apparently) "inherent" characteristics, but are rather from how they are treated and what expectations are had for them: by society, by individuals (both men and women), etc etc. - and how that feeds into their own self-perception.

(Yep, in other words, like any other person. It takes effort to write complex people in general.)

[Strangefan]

I read a lot of comics in my youth, took a very long sabbatical, and am now back. As a female myself it has always been a peeve that guys would have head to toe body armor, but a woman would have a bustier and stilletos. What made me even crazier was when she had a bare midriff, because I am just thinking, why is she exposing where a lot of vital organs are located? Hasn't she heard of peritonitis? Heh.

I also kind of got tired of women were considered "powerful" because they could kick a guys ass. I have always wanted an intelligent, compassionate, strong role model to admire. Kind of get that with Carol Danvers, but then they mess with her head and memories. Doctor Strange isn't my favorite character because he is powerful, but because he earned his power through effort, and at heart he is still a healer (although Hickman seems to have set that aside).

I remember a long time ago some otherworldly Femizon being totally into the Thing, because of his noble warrior spirit, or something like that. Not that I don't think the Thing doesn't deserve someone to admire him, but I bet they would never have a female character given the same story. Women have to be beautiful, you see it on TV, plain guy, hot wife. Comics are no different, it is frustrating, especially to those 99.9% of the female population who don't look like these ideals. Hell, I can't even walk in stilettos.

I do think that women in general are written better than they were some years ago. Everyone, and I am generalizing, seemed to be on the verge of tears. The writing was more melodramatic at that time, admittedly, but you don't see the guys ready to burst into tears. I just want a happy medium between doormat and B*&^h. A woman doesn't need to be a B(**#h to be strong, and a man doesn't need to be a jerk. Some characters who are abrasive, Quicksilver, Namor, Moondragon come to mind, can be fun, they make a conversation kick, but I don't want everyone that way. Then the heroes become cookie cutters, and I want to be able to tell them apart when they aren't in costume.

In the end the most masculine and feminine people to me aren't the ones who meet the stereotypes, but those who refuse to be anything other than themselves. If a guy likes to bake, and take care of his kids he is strong to me, because he doesn't let people's assumptions rule him. He isn't feminine, he's a guy who likes brownies. Same for a woman, if she wants to put on body armor and kick butt, and that is who she is, she doesn't become a man because of those traits. Unfortunately, in a few pages a month it would be hard to evolve a strong character, especially if the writer is trying to change accepted views of what a male hero should look like, and what a female should be.

I do think things are getting incrementally better with writing, even if the art work remains exploitive at times. What I find interesting, with this cross pollination of how characters are portrayed in the movies, and how this changes them in the comics, is when more female heroes get their time to shine, will this change how they are drawn in the comics? The next few years will be interesting.

[dragonmp93]

Sure, except without the character being "the female version" of a male character.

How about Scarlet Witch? Imagine the first panel: "Stereotypical story role gender archetype expectations shall be reversed!"

Second panel: two-page spread of Wanda in the situation I described.

You mean like wonder woman's boyfriends ?

[dragonmp93]

I read a lot of comics in my youth, took a very long sabbatical, and am now back. As a female myself it has always been a peeve that guys would have head to toe body armor, but a woman would have a bustier and stilletos. What made me even crazier was when she had a bare midriff, because I am just thinking, why is she exposing where a lot of vital organs are located? Hasn't she heard of peritonitis? Heh.

I also kind of got tired of women were considered "powerful" because they could kick a guys ass. I have always wanted an intelligent, compassionate, strong role model to admire. Kind of get that with Carol Danvers, but then they mess with her head and memories. Doctor Strange isn't my favorite character because he is powerful, but because he earned his power through effort, and at heart he is still a healer (although Hickman seems to have set that aside).

I remember a long time ago some otherworldly Femizon being totally into the Thing, because of his noble warrior spirit, or something like that. Not that I don't think the Thing doesn't deserve someone to admire him, but I bet they would never have a female character given the same story. Women have to be beautiful, you see it on TV, plain guy, hot wife. Comics are no different, it is frustrating, especially to those 99.9% of the female population who don't look like these ideals. Hell, I can't even walk in stilettos.

I do think that women in general are written better than they were some years ago. Everyone, and I am generalizing, seemed to be on the verge of tears. The writing was more melodramatic at that time, admittedly, but you don't see the guys ready to burst into tears. I just want a happy medium between doormat and B*&^h. A woman doesn't need to be a B(**#h to be strong, and a man doesn't need to be a jerk. Some characters who are abrasive, Quicksilver, Namor, Moondragon come to mind, can be fun, they make a conversation kick, but I don't want everyone that way. Then the heroes become cookie cutters, and I want to be able to tell them apart when they aren't in costume.

In the end the most masculine and feminine people to me aren't the ones who meet the stereotypes, but those who refuse to be anything other than themselves. If a guy likes to bake, and take care of his kids he is strong to me, because he doesn't let people's assumptions rule him. He isn't feminine, he's a guy who likes brownies. Same for a woman, if she wants to put on body armor and kick butt, and that is who she is, she doesn't become a man because of those traits. Unfortunately, in a few pages a month it would be hard to evolve a strong character, especially if the writer is trying to change accepted views of what a male hero should look like, and what a female should be.

I do think things are getting incrementally better with writing, even if the art work remains exploitive at times. What I find interesting, with this cross pollination of how characters are portrayed in the movies, and how this changes them in the comics, is when more female heroes get their time to shine, will this change how they are drawn in the comics? The next few years will be interesting.

Have you heard of the new ms. marvel ?

[ed2962]

Did Lindsey Wagner explain what she meant? Because in order to be true to what she wants, you'd have to delineate those inherent qualities. When you see most "badass" women, they're not power-fantasies. They're still fantasies aimed towards men: they're sexy and sultry and in high heels and skirts, and the real hero of the story - the rugged male, whoever he is - still gets her in the end. Oh, and she always has to seduce her way out of a situation, too. That's not a hero designed with my demographic in mind. Does a skirt make someone a woman? Maybe that's what she was getting at. Like, if you ask me personally - I can't speak for every woman, nor can Lindsey, of course, but - Sigourney Weaver in Alien, and Angelina Jolie in Salt (yes) are some of the most spectacularly awesome female action hero leads in movies I've seen. Both roles were actually originally written for men.

Given that men can have beauty and compassion too, and since those are as you say virtues, would that not just make her a well-rounded character in general? Why wouldn't Superman also inherently have those virtues?

Answer: because they are (or were at the time) "feminine virtues." Men don't "need" them. (This is of course patently untrue.)

What I agree with you most on is that (also in my opinion) the biggest distinctions between men and women (and all other groups) are not from their (apparently) "inherent" characteristics, but are rather from how they are treated and what expectations are had for them: by society, by individuals (both men and women), etc etc. - and how that feeds into their own self-perception.

(Yep, in other words, like any other person. It takes effort to write complex people in general.)

I think that she meant that she didn't want to be written like a Charles Bronson stereotype...all gritted teeth and intimidation.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with showing women being compassionate and nurturing. I don't think there's anything wrong with showing them chopping people's heads off. Thing is, I don't think that it has to be an either or situation. There's room for a variety of female characters and of course the goal should be that each character have a multi-layered personality with different shades. The problem I think comes from writers sometimes leaning too heavily on genre ( and societal ) cliches.

[Strangefan]

Have you heard of the new ms. marvel ?

I have, but with few.exceptions I wait for it to be released in book form. She is also a kid, I believe, my post was aimed more towards the treatment of adult females. Ms Marvel being so young isn't being forced to serve as a femme fatale.

[Laevatein]

I think that she meant that she didn't want to be written like a Charles Bronson stereotype...all gritted teeth and intimidation.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with showing women being compassionate and nurturing. I don't think there's anything wrong with showing them chopping people's heads off. Thing is, I don't think that it has to be an either or situation. There's room for a variety of female characters and of course the goal should be that each character have a multi-layered personality with different shades. The problem I think comes from writers sometimes leaning too heavily on genre ( and societal ) cliches.

There's also double standards at play. IIRC, Gail Simone once talked about how if Dirty Harry were a woman, with no changes to the script, everyone would complain about how much of a bitch she was.