A new Robin besides Damian? Ugh!

[Deniz Camp]

But its not the same audience. Neither in terms of the actual potential readers or the people those readers care about the opinions of.

And frankly, when I was catching Bold and the Beautiful and Young and the Restless when my wife was watching it, people who died were staying dead. Mainly because the people who died were actors leaving the show.

Can you tell me where these droves of people are that are leaving various forms of entertainment because dead doesn't mean dead, then? If you're making an assertion about audiences, do you have some counter example?

But since neither of us are involved in the meetings at DC/Warners, we don't have any way of knowing what the atmosphere is. Nor can we necessary assume that the attitude one year will be the same the next.

But at the end of the day, it is the responsibility of any company to find more customers, and making changes to the content could turn out to be one way to do that.

But that's an entirely different consideration. We're talking about this as fans of the work, not as stockholders or executives. Maximization of quality - an inherently subjective, individual standard - should be our goal.

I'm not seeing it. I know people who like the movies and TV, but still think it odd that someone would buy comics.

I am.

But even putting that aside, the core conceits of the genre have become mainstream. There are all sorts of reasons - price, accessibility, simple lack of familiarity and lack of desire to try new mediums of entertainment - that might prevent people from picking up the actual books. But the stigma attached to superhero stuff has eroded.

Well, because nobody is sure what the majority thinks. We're all speculating.

Making an assertion that 'this is the way to save comics' or 'this is hurting comics' without any foundation seems...problematic. Perhaps that's just me.

But I'm not speculating. I'm talking about my own personal tastes, which everyone here can be sure of. Beyond that, we're discussing the notion that there is something inherently wrong with this 'death as a revolving door' method of storytelling, based on internal story logic or individual connection. The former can be discussed in objective terms, the latter can only be extrapolated from personal opinion.

[Güicho]

Only read the title of the thread so far, but is a fan of the 5th or 6th Robin(lost count) really complaining about a potential new one. LOL!

[Flash Gordon]

Just dropping my two cents about the whole "dead is dead thing"- superheroes are modern myths. Mythology is loaded with implausible resurrections. That's why people gravitate towards them. Makes you feel good to know that your hero can escape the one thing we can never dream of. The hero can and will, ultimately return from the sun just when you need him most.

Personally I thought Damien's death should have been the closure of the old continuity and we open with him alive and well in the new era- taking Dick's mantle away. Perhaps that would have been no different though.

[Deniz Camp]

I will say an alternate universe Batman 666 book would be a whole lot of fun. It would cover any of the same ground as a young Damian Wayne would, but I'd give up the one to have the other.

Perhaps with Tim Seeley writing.

[GlennSimpson]

Can you tell me where these droves of people are that are leaving various forms of entertainment because dead doesn't mean dead, then? If you're making an assertion about audiences, do you have some counter example?

It's not about people leaving, it's about people not coming in. Looking at it over decades, fewer and fewer people are coming in to super-hero comics. There's no one reason for that, but content can be seen as one of them. It's fairly easy to see where the silliness of them could be turning people away, especially when something like Game of Thrones has all the action and magic but a more serious tone.

But that's an entirely different consideration. We're talking about this as fans of the work, not as stockholders or executives. Maximization of quality - an inherently subjective, individual standard - should be our goal.

You are welcome to have your goal. But to my mind, if we don't keep those executives happy, then we won't have comics. If we have comics, the quality will come naturally.

I am. But even putting that aside, the core conceits of the genre have become mainstream. There are all sorts of reasons - price, accessibility, simple lack of familiarity and lack of desire to try new mediums of entertainment - that might prevent people from picking up the actual books. But the stigma attached to superhero stuff has eroded.

And I would agree if we had an example of a popular long-term super-hero storytelling scenario where multiple characters had died and returned to the point that it was a trope. But we haven't had that. All we've had was little bursts here and there. Yes, people are OK with costumes and code-names and powers, but constant resurrections isn't something we've gotten to yet in the media that most people are accepting of. Heck, even with codenames we have to have the press give the character a name or some such - we're not really at "I'm a super-hero therefore of course I have a code-name that i am going to give myself" (Star-Lord aside).

Making an assertion that 'this is the way to save comics' or 'this is hurting comics' without any foundation seems...problematic. Perhaps that's just me.

But I'm not speculating. I'm talking about my own personal tastes, which everyone here can be sure of. Beyond that, we're discussing the notion that there is something inherently wrong with this 'death as a revolving door' method of storytelling, based on internal story logic or individual connection. The former can be discussed in objective terms, the latter can only be extrapolated from personal opinion.

Well what I am talking about is what I see in the people around me every day - what other things they like and don't like. And from there, speculating how that would affect their opinion of super-hero comics. Nobody in this forum is going to solve anything but we're all certainly welcome to our opinions on how other people would react, based on what we see.

[exile001]

So in that link, it says the Future's End one shot for Batman and Robin will feature a new Robin besides Damian. The comments are saying it's a black Robin. I don't care about that. What I care about is Damian. DC better bring that kid back exactly the same freakin way he was before they let him be killed off.

Fortunately, it's not only your opinion that matters.

There are fans out there who see Dick as the only Robin and can't accept any others, same with Tim and now with Damian*, who has been a character in the DCU less than either, and was Robin for a MUCH shorter length of time.

My opinion? Morisson should have been allowed to kill of his character as intended and that be it. No further mentions as it was still set in the pre-New 52. In fact, while I liked Damian, my opinion is that Morisson should NEVER have been allowed to give Bruce a son. Personally, I think it was a terrible idea.

I want Tim to return as Robin. I'd be happy if Duke were the New Robin but my current preference is Harper.

Fortunately, it's not only my opinion that matters either.

At the end of the year, we will have a new Robin. The fact is, after ALL this effort Tomasi has gone through, I am certain this person will be Robin for a long, long time so you need to get used to the fact (if it isn't Damian).

*Sorry, but I've never heard ANYONE claiming Jason should be back and the only Robin since Dick.

[Dzetoun]

At the end of the year, we will have a new Robin. The fact is, after ALL this effort Tomasi has gone through, I am certain this person will be Robin for a long, long time so you need to get used to the fact (if it isn't Damian).

I wouldn't bet the rent on that.

[exile001]

I wouldn't bet the rent on that.

Really? I can't imagine DC let Tomasi do a year long search for Damian to end up with no permanent Robin (well, as permanent as they get ). I'd be very surprised if the "new" Robin wasn't around for at least 4-5 years.

[RobinFan4880]

Fortunately, it's not only your opinion that matters.

There are fans out there who see Dick as the only Robin and can't accept any others, same with Tim and now with Damian*, who has been a character in the DCU less than either, and was Robin for a MUCH shorter length of time.

My opinion? Morisson should have been allowed to kill of his character as intended and that be it. No further mentions as it was still set in the pre-New 52. In fact, while I liked Damian, my opinion is that Morisson should NEVER have been allowed to give Bruce a son. Personally, I think it was a terrible idea.

Bruce already had a son. The story was just semi-out-of-continuity, the way the Killing Joke was before being fully integrated.

Fortunately, it's not only my opinion that matters either.

At the end of the year, we will have a new Robin. The fact is, after ALL this effort Tomasi has gone through, I am certain this person will be Robin for a long, long time so you need to get used to the fact (if it isn't Damian).

Agreed. By the time we get a new Robin, Damian will have been dead for almost two years and Batman will have been on the vague hunt for Damian's body for at least a year and a quarter. We will not see a new Robin for five or six years after this.

[Dzetoun]

Really? I can't imagine DC let Tomasi do a year long search for Damian to end up with no permanent Robin (well, as permanent as they get ). I'd be very surprised if the "new" Robin wasn't around for at least 4-5 years.

Oh, 4-5 years, sure. But that isn't a long, long time. Tim was Robin for 17 years, and Dick for 44. Four or five years is in the Damian/Jason range.

[db105]

While in general I loved Morrison's run on Batman, I got the sensation with the last part of Batman Inc that he was just going through the motions. That ending with everybody telling Batman that he is just a childish fool playing around with his costumes while the grown-ups took care of things... I don't know what Morrison was trying to prove, but that it is no way consistent with Batman's history, as Morrison knows better than anybody.

Coming back to Damian, his death was rushed and unnecessary in the story. It was just cheap and anticlimactic. (In my opinion, obviously). At that point, Damian's character arc interested me much more than the story Morrison was telling at the end of Inc, and that was why I did not appreciate his disappearance. Besides, we already had the Robin who died. We did not need another one of those.

Let's see what they come up with now, but I'd prefer it if Damian came back and we got to see what kind of young man he becomes. If instead we get a new Robin I hope at least they stick to it and don't just use him/her as another throwaway Robin.

Seriously, what's up with DC and young characters dying? We already have to suspend disbelief to accept that Batman and other heroes would allow such young characters to risk their lives in this way. Having them die so often just adds more grimness to a DCU that could use some lighter stories.

[exile001]

Oh, 4-5 years, sure. But that isn't a long, long time. Tim was Robin for 17 years, and Dick for 44. Four or five years is in the Damian/Jason range.

Ah, okay. I was speaking New 52 time, where things change pretty quickly. I don't think we'll get another 10+ year Robin again unless DC caves and reverts to Dick Grayson, or new editorial teams (right up to the top) are in place.

[db105]

unless DC caves and reverts to Dick Grayson

Frankly, I don't think that's practical. Dick Grayson has too much story now to just go back to being Robin, unless there's a true and radical reboot or they start something like the Ultimate Universe that they did at Marvel (All-Star Batman and Robin was supposed to be something like that, but it didn't really turn out to be an ongoing series).

[DurararaFTW]

Frankly, I don't think that's practical. Dick Grayson has too much story now to just go back to being Robin, unless there's a true and radical reboot or they start something like the Ultimate Universe that they did at Marvel (All-Star Batman and Robin was supposed to be something like that, but it didn't really turn out to be an ongoing series).

Batman '66 is kinda like that already.

[exile001]

Frankly, I don't think that's practical. Dick Grayson has too much story now to just go back to being Robin, unless there's a true and radical reboot or they start something like the Ultimate Universe that they did at Marvel (All-Star Batman and Robin was supposed to be something like that, but it didn't really turn out to be an ongoing series).

I hope you're right. I really do. The last thing I want to see right now is Dick Grayson as Robin again, especially as some have suggested, a younger version from an alternate Earth.

The sad thing is, Dick doesn't have much of any back-story now. He was Robin for a year as a teen, he became Nightwing under unknown circumstances, there was no Teen Titans, he seemingly always stayed in Gotham, has no real ties to the rest of the superhero community, was Batman for a very short time, then New 52. He has lost all the rich history he had pre-New 52.