Wonder Woman and The Better Girl Principle.

[brettc1]

Oh my!

This might engender some interesting discussion. I will warn readers straight up there is some graphic language in the article...

The Better Girl is a subset of the Smurfette Principle (or the Fighting &^%$ Toy) where a single female (usually the main character) is elevated above other female characters in the story, often at expense of authentic representation of women. Where a Smurfette character is the only woman in a world of men, The Better Girl is the only worthwhile woman among a cast of female characters, many of whom embody sexist stereotypes. The Better Girl shows that she alone can rise above the faults and failings of her gender, and she does so by exhibiting idealize masculine behavior.

Full article here...

http://snarkycake.blogspot.co.uk/201...h-katniss.html

What do folks think of this and versions of Wonder Woman - past and present?

[TheFearlessDefender89]

It's an awesome article that pinpoints the problems of shaming feminine attributes to uphold and appraise masculine ones in female protagonists. It's also explains inner narrative shaming of the masculine chick versus the stereotypical feminine woman and whether or not feminine women can have agency or be equal to the main masculine female lead as well as it consequences. Great find, Brettc1! I enjoy articles that challenge what and how we think about female lead protagonists and if they are out shining at the expense of sisterhood and diverse gender binary representation.

Do you think this applies to Diana narratively speaking, or was this article posted for insight and good measure?

[SofNascimento]

Well, the current Wonder Woman runs certainly doesn't have this... principle.

[SofNascimento]

About the article itself, it does have some interesting points. But when it start analyzing, if you can call it that, The Hunger Games, it just become a sad arrangement of letters.

[brettc1]

It's an awesome article that pinpoints the problems of shaming feminine attributes to uphold and appraise masculine ones in female protagonists. It's also explains inner narrative shaming of the masculine chick versus the stereotypical feminine woman and whether or not feminine women can have agency or be equal to the main masculine female lead as well as it consequences. Great find, Brettc1! I enjoy articles that challenge what and how we think about female lead protagonists and if they are out shining at the expense of sisterhood and diverse gender binary representation.

Do you think this applies to Diana narratively speaking, or was this article posted for insight and good measure?

Well, the current Wonder Woman runs certainly doesn't have this... principle.

I think while no trope will usually cover all bases in a work of fiction, there are certainly a significant number in this run that do apply.

Wonder Woman is now the product most significantly of Ares male mentoring. [At least, the story gives most weight to his role, rather than the other Amazons]

As for this point...

•She is so much cooler than those other girls. The Better Girl is often noticeably so because she stands out from a crowd of other, undesirable female characters in the story. Whether they’re shallow, vain, slutty, ugly, nerdy, awkward or the worst of all, angry, outspoken (straw feminist) man-haters. The Better Girl will cast in a better light, by comparison, because she will appear to be the only female character who isn’t a negative stereotype of women. Though she will openly hate other women, sometimes more than the male characters in the story. She will be the first to slut shame, and victim blame other female characters, to help reminds us of how much better she is than “those other girls.”

Diana doesn't fall into all those categories, but the other female characters for the first two years of the story are almost all nasty, and Hera only starts to come around because of Diana's extended influence. As for outspoken straw feminist man-haters - see any issue where the current Amazons are shown on two legs.

Certainly being better is kind of Wonder Woman's things, but if you compare this run to Perez the latter certainly has a lot more "positive" women.

[DochaDocha]

Seems like a lot of this could've been prevented simply by adding one more positive female character earlier in the run. On the other hand, there was only a small handful of meaningful female characters in the book so far. One of them was young and naive, and another one seems to be coming around, thanks to WW.

I don't take trope arguments too seriously. I guess you could say that the Azz run is lacking in good female characters, but I don't want to be critical of a WW story because WW comes across as too good.

[BlackFeath]

I think while no trope will usually cover all bases in a work of fiction, there are certainly a significant number in this run that do apply.

Wonder Woman is now the product most significantly of Ares male mentoring. [At least, the story gives most weight to his role, rather than the other Amazons]

I think differentely. In the other books she is called always goddess and trained by War, but in her own she is often called Amazon too, and I would take this as an example of balance between her training with him and with her sisters:



Also, Ares mentored her, but at the end she didn't follow passively what he taught her and istead she followed her heart, and changed him by making him reflect on his role.
Diana also seems to value much her mother's teaching of being strong and relying and trust herself:



So I don't think she can be considered just the product of Ares's mentoring.

As for this point...

•She is so much cooler than those other girls. The Better Girl is often noticeably so because she stands out from a crowd of other, undesirable female characters in the story. Whether they’re shallow, vain, slutty, ugly, nerdy, awkward or the worst of all, angry, outspoken (straw feminist) man-haters. The Better Girl will cast in a better light, by comparison, because she will appear to be the only female character who isn’t a negative stereotype of women. Though she will openly hate other women, sometimes more than the male characters in the story. She will be the first to slut shame, and victim blame other female characters, to help reminds us of how much better she is than “those other girls.”

Diana doesn't fall into all those categories, but the other female characters for the first two years of the story are almost all nasty, and Hera only starts to come around because of Diana's extended influence. As for outspoken straw feminist man-haters - see any issue where the current Amazons are shown on two legs.

Certainly being better is kind of Wonder Woman's things, but if you compare this run to Perez the latter certainly has a lot more "positive" women.

Well, I think she is exactly the opposite of what is reported in the article. Yes, she is ' better', she is wonder woman, after all, but she doesn't consider herself better than the others, and she also commits mistakes and knows it, but that doesn't stop her from wanting always to become better. She always tries to inspire the others to become better too, though.
She helps women as well as men, and she also asks for help when needed, not only to men, but also to women. When she needed a place to take Zola and Hermes, she asked help to her mother, then she asked help to Siracca to find Zeke, and recentely she asked help to Artemis, and then she asked her sisters to follow her in the battle for Olympus. Hera is helping her too after she helped her. And Zola? She has become better now, and she has also helped Hera.

And now I post this scene because it is too funny xD :



Really...while in that article it seems to say that the 'better girl' hates the other women, Diana always tries to help the other to become better, woman and man alike, and she values friendship before everything else.

I think also what it was said in the article about Katniss was not exactly true...
Anyway, with Wonder Woman, I think it doesn't apply at all.

[SofNascimento]

Actually, Diana had a much bigger influence on Ares then the other way around. He wasn't her long life mentor, and she doesn't follow any kind of principle he imposed to him or try to live up to him somehow. She likes him, and cared for him but wa never under his spell.

Also, nice post BlackFeath. Covers it nicely.

[brettc1]

As I said, her Anazon training is not absent but her training with Ares is given more weight.

The one page above where they share space is one of about four pages where she is shown with the Amazons at all. The rest of the book is about the training she gets from the god of War. Training she will need to defeat the big bad. She also takes command of the Amazons not as Queen but as War God. Add to that the act of Zeus blood and the overwhelming source of most of her power is men.

When she meets up with Lennox he also becomes a mentor figure. As does Hermes for a time. Both these men give her help on numerous occasions, as do Orion and Hephaestus.

Breaking the book down, here are the women appearing so far and their status as to how they contribute to the story

Zola - positive, rarely helpful.
Hippolyta - positive, removed after issue 4
Aleka - negative, hates Diana and men
Amazons - negative man hating feminazis
Hera - negative, jealous to point of murdering Sirraca's mother, becomes nicer hanging with Diana
Strife - negative, manipulative, nasty, stick thin party girl
Hades daughters - negative, bloodthirsty Daddy's girls
Persephone - negative, helpless victim
Artemis - negative for most of the run, tries to kill Diana twice, stands in her brothers shadow
Cassandra - negative, murders, tortures
Aphrodite - neutral
Sirraca - initially negative, becomes positive

[Blacksun]

It doesn't has more weight, the pages is half Ares/half amazon training. what had more weight in the end? Amazons, Diana only trained few times with Ares and didn't conclude her training with him.

Diana also received help from strife, siracca, hera and artemis.

It's not like the men are portrayed that much better than women.

[brettc1]

It doesn't has more weight, the pages is half Ares/half amazon training. what had more weight in the end? Amazons, Diana only trained few times with Ares and didn't conclude her training with him.

Diana also received help from strife, siracca, hera and artemis.

It's not like the men are portrayed that much better than women.

One page out the book shows them weighted equally. But in the whole issue there is much more space dedicated to her training with Ares.

[BlackFeath]

As I said, her Anazon training is not absent but her training with Ares is given more weight.

The one page above where they share space is one of about four pages where she is shown with the Amazons at all. The rest of the book is about the training she gets from the god of War. Training she will need to defeat the big bad. She also takes command of the Amazons not as Queen but as War God.

In the last issue she presented herself as their sister and their queen, though.

Add to that the act of Zeus blood and the overwhelming source of most of her power is men.

There are other demigods children of Zeus that are not near to her level of power, though. Lennox, for example, and Apollo said too that she could put to shame the Lion (He means Hercules, right?), so I'd say that she is as strong as she is also for a different reason than her father's blood. And she also restrains on purpose the power she has inherited from him with the bracelets, prefering to be who she aspire to be rather than who she is ^^.

When she meets up with Lennox he also becomes a mentor figure. As does Hermes for a time. Both these men give her help on numerous occasions, as do Orion and Hephaestus.

Lennox was of help at the end because he sacrified himself, but in the other situations he was rather cracked... But okay, he was a positive figure.

Hermes? First he asked for her help and was saved by her, then he betrayed her by taking Zeke, and then she decided to trust him again (I'd say he has passed from positive to negative to a positive figure again).

Orion has helped her in some fights, but she has helped him too (she has made him regain control on himself, and she has saved him from the First Born when he had him on the ground) and in many other situations he was quite a negative figure with all his innuendos and his calling her 'Legs', ecc...

Hephaestus has helped her...and then he helped Strife even if she was against Diana...

Breaking the book down, here are the women appearing so far and their status as to how they contribute to the story

Zola - positive, rarely helpful.

Well...in a certain sense she was the one to convince Diana to give her mother another chance, and after the first days, she has also made the first step in changing Hera involving her when they had to give a name to Zeke. She is Diana's friend and now considers also Hera her friend even after all she has done to her.

Hippolyta - positive, removed after issue 4
Aleka - negative, hates Diana and men
Amazons - negative man hating feminazis

Well, there's something positive in the amazons, too. They were ready to give up their lives for their queen, some of them kept secret Diana's birth to protect her, they respect the fact that everyone of them can have a different idea, and they will likely be Diana's army during the last battle on Olympus.

Hera - negative, jealous to point of murdering Sirraca's mother, becomes nicer hanging with Diana

So...negative character turned good one, isn't she? In issue 29 she saved all their lives and restored the amazons. Now she is helping Diana to assume her role of queen while her mother is still a clay statue. Quite helpful nowadays, and one of the characters that changed the most in this run.

Strife - negative, manipulative, nasty, stick thin party girl

She only does what her name says xD In a certain sense she is quite a complex character too, though. She seemed really upset about Ares's death. She 'saved' Diana in the underworld after having in a certain sense put her in that position. Overall she seems a negative character, but still interesting and quite important (maybe even more than it seems).

Hades daughters - negative, bloodthirsty Daddy's girls
Persephone - negative, helpless victim
Artemis - negative for most of the run, tries to kill Diana twice, stands in her brothers shadow

Recentely though, she has turned almost into a positive character. She has helped Diana to track Zeke and asked to assume her role. Even before, during the fight in issue 21, she wanted to understand her and she told her she shouldn't keep always on check her power or it could explode into her face. Maybe this will turn right, who knows...

Cassandra - negative, murders, tortures
Aphrodite - neutral
Sirraca - initially negative, becomes positive

Cassandra is a villain. She was quite interesting till issue 29. Now though, after what the First Born has done to her she could finish to be the unexpected help of Diana.
Anyway, negative character, of course...but villains are expected in a run, aren't they?

Aphrodite hasn't had an important role, true. Siracca, as you said, is a positive character now.

One page out the book shows them weighted equally. But in the whole issue there is much more space dedicated to her training with Ares.

Not really. The training has lasted for that page, which is shared with the amazon training, and for other two pages (the fight against Ares), two pages exactly like the fight against Aleka. Even the quest of the minotaur in a certain sense is related to the Amazons since Diana was searching for the gift for her mother for her own birthday (amazons' ritual).
If you say that Ares appears more often than the amazons, though, it is true, even if not on all the pages.

Anyway, in three cases she is the one who makes an impression on him, not the other way around (when he sees her and decides she could be the one, when she says she is ready to die and Ares understands he cares for her and doesn't kill her going against his warrior principles, and when she spares the minotaur by going against his orders and making him see how much he has changed when she remembers him that he has spared her life in a fight too). To add to this there's also the question we know she posed to him in the past from issue 23, the one about losing one's self in a fight.

In general during the year of training I think Diana was the one who made him change the most. Instead of shaping her, he was the one to be shaped by her. We saw how much he changed, while she continued to follow her heart.

[Tangent Man]

There's only one time in history I could see Wonder Woman actively disliking women and putting them down--the infamous "Women's Lib" issue that closed out the powerless era. Otherwise, Wonder Woman traditionally embodies sisterhood with women. Diana empowers women, instead of minimizing them. I could NEVER see Diana "slut-shaming", especially NEVER blaming victims!

I agree with Brett's analysis of Azzarello's portrayal of women, as I've historically presented similar critiques at this forum. Azzarello presented any woman whose name didn't begin with "Wonder" as broken and desperately needing redemption or salvation. Previous writers portrayed a variety of women with positive and negative traits. Only Azzarello has failed in that regard, placing Diana on a pedestal and showing women in negative lights when compared with her--and especially with the men. I maintain that Azzarello's run has a very misogynistic worldview.

[brettc1]

There's only one time in history I could see Wonder Woman actively disliking women and putting them down--the infamous "Women's Lib" issue that closed out the powerless era. Otherwise, Wonder Woman traditionally embodies sisterhood with women. Diana empowers women, instead of minimizing them. I could NEVER see Diana "slut-shaming", especially NEVER blaming victims!

I agree with Brett's analysis of Azzarello's portrayal of women, as I've historically presented similar critiques at this forum. Azzarello presented any woman whose name didn't begin with "Wonder" as broken and desperately needing redemption or salvation. Previous writers portrayed a variety of women with positive and negative traits. Only Azzarello has failed in that regard, placing Diana on a pedestal and showing women in negative lights when compared with her--and especially with the men. I maintain that Azzarello's run has a very misogynistic worldview.

I agree - hating other women is not in Diana's character and we have seen precious little of that in this run, and what we have seen is certainly justified by circumstances.

[brettc1]

In the last issue she presented herself as their sister and their queen, though.



There are other demigods children of Zeus that are not near to her level of power, though. Lennox, for example, and Apollo said too that she could put to shame the Lion (He means Hercules, right?), so I'd say that she is as strong as she is also for a different reason than her father's blood. And she also restrains on purpose the power she has inherited from him with the bracelets, prefering to be who she aspire to be rather than who she is ^^.



Lennox was of help at the end because he sacrified himself, but in the other situations he was rather cracked... But okay, he was a positive figure.

Hermes? First he asked for her help and was saved by her, then he betrayed her by taking Zeke, and then she decided to trust him again (I'd say he has passed from positive to negative to a positive figure again).

Orion has helped her in some fights, but she has helped him too (she has made him regain control on himself, and she has saved him from the First Born when he had him on the ground) and in many other situations he was quite a negative figure with all his innuendos and his calling her 'Legs', ecc...

Hephaestus has helped her...and then he helped Strife even if she was against Diana...



Well...in a certain sense she was the one to convince Diana to give her mother another chance, and after the first days, she has also made the first step in changing Hera involving her when they had to give a name to Zeke. She is Diana's friend and now considers also Hera her friend even after all she has done to her.



Well, there's something positive in the amazons, too. They were ready to give up their lives for their queen, some of them kept secret Diana's birth to protect her, they respect the fact that everyone of them can have a different idea, and they will likely be Diana's army during the last battle on Olympus.



So...negative character turned good one, isn't she? In issue 29 she saved all their lives and restored the amazons. Now she is helping Diana to assume her role of queen while her mother is still a clay statue. Quite helpful nowadays, and one of the characters that changed the most in this run.



She only does what her name says xD In a certain sense she is quite a complex character too, though. She seemed really upset about Ares's death. She 'saved' Diana in the underworld after having in a certain sense put her in that position. Overall she seems a negative character, but still interesting and quite important (maybe even more than it seems).



Recentely though, she has turned almost into a positive character. She has helped Diana to track Zeke and asked to assume her role. Even before, during the fight in issue 21, she wanted to understand her and she told her she shouldn't keep always on check her power or it could explode into her face. Maybe this will turn right, who knows...



Cassandra is a villain. She was quite interesting till issue 29. Now though, after what the First Born has done to her she could finish to be the unexpected help of Diana.
Anyway, negative character, of course...but villains are expected in a run, aren't they?

Aphrodite hasn't had an important role, true. Siracca, as you said, is a positive character now.

So it sounds like we and Tangent Man are in agreement. There are virtually no female characters in the book who start off helpful and positive and continue in that vein.