Is there anything Scarlet Witch could do to redeem herself?

[Swashbuckler]

So it wrong for Wanda to take away almost every single mutant' power, but its okay for Cyclops to decide that he will he transform all humans into mutants? How is that better in a moral sense? Not all mutations are beneficial, Rogue not being able to touch other people for a long time had to tortuous and mutations that change people's physical appearance might make a lot of people unhappy. If its wrong for Wanda to force mutants to give up their power without their permission, why is it okay for Cyclops to transformer all humans into mutants?

That was NEVER his actual intent.

[Optic Rage!]

Cyclops was just trying to follow the will of mother nature. Are people trying to suggest that mother nature is a villain?

[ExodusCloak]

The Phoenix was coming to Earth whether anyone liked it or not. It was coming to jump start evolution as it did many years ago as documented by Unit. The only difference is that Unit eliminated one of the 5 Lights, and the 6th Light died, while the 7th Light had his powers shut off till he was older. Unit wanted to study what would happen if there were only 4 Lights.

So yeah taking Hope of planet was not going to stop the Phoenix. While Hope didn't have her 5th light to break the spell, the Avengers would have taken her off planet, it would have followed or taken over her from a far as it did before. Then they would have used Tony's gun against it and split the Phoenix into 5 people anyway.

The Avengers had no plan.

[Optic Rage!]

It was only coming to earth as a response to the witches spell too.

[The Overlord]

Cyclops was just trying to follow the will of mother nature. Are people trying to suggest that mother nature is a villain?

Except evolution doesn't have a predestined route, at least in the real world so saying its mother nature's will is not illogical, at that point you are talking about God. Plus isn't that Mr. Sinister's logic, that he does what he does to advance the evolution of the human race and he is a bad guy, not even a sympathetic one too. This seems more like playing God then helping mother nature, this makes Wanda and cyclops guilty of the same crime, they get to decide the fate of countless people without consulting them first.

[ExodusCloak]

Except evolution doesn't have a predestined route, at least in the real world so saying its mother nature's will is not illogical, at that point you are talking about God. Plus isn't that Mr. Sinister's logic, that he does what he does to advance the evolution of the human race and he is a bad guy, not even a sympathetic one too. This seems more like playing God then helping mother nature, this makes Wanda and cyclops guilty of the same crime, they get to decide the fate of countless people without consulting them first.

Cyclops didn't decide anything. The Phoenix was coming to Earth in response to Wanda's spell (AvX 12) and Units documentary. This was clearly explained already in the event.

[dragonmp93]

So it wrong for Wanda to take away almost every single mutant' power, but its okay for Cyclops to decide that he will he transform all humans into mutants? How is that better in a moral sense? Not all mutations are beneficial, Rogue not being able to touch other people for a long time had to tortuous and mutations that change people's physical appearance might make a lot of people unhappy. If its wrong for Wanda to force mutants to give up their power without their permission, why is it okay for Cyclops to transformer all humans into mutants?

Well, Rogue managed to control her power several years ago and was having a happy and normal (well by X-men standards) life; but now thanks to what happened in UA # 23, she is back at square one.

[Trident]

so i take you guys are all going to be boycotting avengers 2 then, seeing as there is little to no chance wanda will not be instrumental in saving the day?

They will see it and probably love it and still continue with the Scarlet Witch hate. Anyone who says otherwise is only lying to themselves .lol

[Mr. Brightside]

They will see it and probably love it and still continue with the Scarlet Witch hate. Anyone who says otherwise is only lying to themselves .lol

movie wanda has not the sins of the 616. It' like me hating on 1610 incest Wanda: Why would I?

[Cmbmool]

Unless I'm utterly mistaken, once Jean was dead, Claremont wanted to leave her dead, the same with Thunderbird. He viewed it as her story being finished and as her being more of a symbol verses a character. Maddie was just meant to be a normal woman who looked like Jean for Scott to settle down with, but editorial wanted Cyclops back in the X-Men and Jean back. They said make it happen, so CC had to figure out 1)a way to bring back the dead in an interesting manner, 2)pardon her for genocide, 3) get Cyke out of his marriage without him looking like too much of a tool. He succeeded in two of the three, more or less, but part of the reason Scott still ended up looking like a jerk is because that's how CC viewed him in the aftermath of Maddie and Nathan. He was talking about it fairly recently on a comic con panel, as a matter of fact.



Try reading them without the cult of Cyclops was right propaganda.

It was quite clearly shown. Vintage Cyke was the too serious, average looking, too responsible, vaguely egotistical type-A team leader who had a crappy private life. He was always controlling, stemming from his personal need for self-control due to his optic blasts. That was good. That was interesting. He was an interesting character. Then editorial favoritism came along. First, they had to ditch Jean because she made him look like a fawning puppy (or less than perfect, pick one). Then they turned Emma from a self-assured, in control woman to the one doing the fawning over him to make him look "sexy" and desirable (or for fanbois to live vicariously -- take your pick). Next we had M-Day, which Alonso said from the get go was a story he saw revolving around Cyclops. He was The Man. He was The Leader. He reacted with a ratcheting up of control and extremism, going into survival mode. It worked for the story as a normal reaction, but it got worse over time. He segregated them in Utopia, he turned the X-Men from a family unit into a military unit, he became utterly obsessed with Hope to the point where even Magneto called him on it. Instead of talking with the Avengers when they showed up, he started a war with them, even after Cable warned him against a war. The P5 had his worst character attributes on display. Now he wanted to control the world and his ego was god-sized to think his way was the right way. Forget freedom. When Xavier, the only person aside from Jean who might've had any chance whatsoever to get through to him tried to talk him down from the power trip, he killed Xavier. In the aftermath, he's doing his whole public posturing and calls to revolution Che Guevara schtickt but has his people once more living in a bunker, a la military wartime X-Men. He's too obsessed with being "right" to see what the ultimate cost will be for his revolution and the price future mutants will have to pay. He's ramping up the fear normal humanity feels for mutants and confusing fear with respect. That is a downward spiral.



I didn't say you should. I said if you're going to excuse one character because of bad-writing, then it should go for both. To make justifications for one but utterly condemn the other when they're not, in fact, very different at all, is just a hypocritical attitude.

Well said as this also defines where I stand on the whole issue as well. I mean Bendis, the writer who put Wanda into this situation wouldn't even try to fix her in his works.

[The Overlord]

Cyclops didn't decide anything. The Phoenix was coming to Earth in response to Wanda's spell (AvX 12) and Units documentary. This was clearly explained already in the event.

Well if the Phoenix Force was going to actively interfere with human evolution, that does lend credence to the argument that the Phoenix Force is dangerous (also since when did the Phoenix Force, a cosmic being, care about how many mutants are on Earth, that seems odd to me). What gives the Phoenix Force the right to decide the fate of human evolution anymore then Scarlet Witch? Does the Phoenix Force get a pass for everything it does, just because it is powerful, does that mean its okay for the Phoenix to destroy galaxies on a whim? Heck there are tons of actively evil cosmic beings out there, do they get to make decisions for others because they are powerful?

Here is the whole problem with AvX, I both sides had a good point, but neither side listened very well to the other and the made a lot of belligerent and unhelpful moves. Its why I don't like either side in this debate. I think more heroic characters should be heroic and stop playing god, both X-Men and Avengers are guilty of unheroic behavior.

[ExodusCloak]

Well if the Phoenix Force was going to actively interfere with human evolution, that does lend credence to the argument that the Phoenix Force is dangerous (also since when did the Phoenix Force, a cosmic being, care about how many mutants are on Earth, that seems odd to me). What gives the Phoenix Force the right to decide the fate of human evolution anymore then Scarlet Witch? Does the Phoenix Force get a pass for everything it does, just because it is powerful, does that mean its okay for the Phoenix to destroy galaxies on a whim? Heck there are tons of actively evil cosmic beings out there, do they get to make decisions for others because they are powerful?

Here is the whole problem with AvX, I both sides had a good point, but neither side listened very well to the other and the made a lot of belligerent and unhelpful moves. Its why I don't like either side in this debate. I think more heroic characters should be heroic and stop playing god, both X-Men and Avengers are guilty of unheroic behavior.

The Phoenix is not only a force of destruction and creation it's also the "doctor" of the universe that is it's role. I just showed you an instance where it cared about evolution not just human evolution but an alien evolution. Your argument is like saying what gives UVB radiation the right to damage skin and cause basal cell carcinoma.

The Phoenix was going to repair the damage Wanda caused to the fabric of the universe with her spell. Wanda strapped a bomb to it that would implode all of reality (See Endangered Species). It's like you digging a hole at the beach and the tide fills that hole with sand.

Lets see what happens when you apply your logic to the entity Death? If we got rid of Death we get the cancerverse.

[dragonmp93]

They will see it and probably love it and still continue with the Scarlet Witch hate. Anyone who says otherwise is only lying to themselves .lol

Wait, why should i hate the innocent movie-verse Scarlet Witch for what her 616 universe versión did ?. That like hating the Agents of Shield (tv show) for what SHIELD does in the comics ?.

Well if the Phoenix Force was going to actively interfere with human evolution, that does lend credence to the argument that the Phoenix Force is dangerous (also since when did the Phoenix Force, a cosmic being, care about how many mutants are on Earth, that seems odd to me). What gives the Phoenix Force the right to decide the fate of human evolution anymore then Scarlet Witch? Does the Phoenix Force get a pass for everything it does, just because it is powerful, does that mean its okay for the Phoenix to destroy galaxies on a whim? Heck there are tons of actively evil cosmic beings out there, do they get to make decisions for others because they are powerful?

Here is the whole problem with AvX, I both sides had a good point, but neither side listened very well to the other and the made a lot of belligerent and unhelpful moves. Its why I don't like either side in this debate. I think more heroic characters should be heroic and stop playing god, both X-Men and Avengers are guilty of unheroic behavior.

So Death (Thanos' on-and-off girlfriend) should ask for permission to kill someone ?, because, after all, who gave her the right to do that ?.

[The Overlord]

The Phoenix is not only a force of destruction and creation it's also the "doctor" of the universe that is it's role. I just showed you an instance where it cared about evolution not just human evolution but an alien evolution. Your argument is like saying what gives UVB radiation the right to damage skin and cause basal cell carcinoma.

The Phoenix was going to repair the damage Wanda caused to the fabric of the universe with her spell. Wanda strapped a bomb to it that would implode all of reality (See Endangered Species). It's like you digging a hole at the beach and the tide fills that hole with sand.

Lets see what happens when you apply your logic to the entity Death? If we got rid of Death we get the cancerverse.

Considering the Phoenix once blew up a galaxy for kicks and that was presented as a bad thing, I would not trust the Phoenix completely either. In the original Phoenix Saga, Claremont did not say the Phoenix gets to do whatever it wants and people should just go along with it, when the Phoenix did something wrong it was presented that way.

You can argue Galactus is part of the natural order of things, does that mean everyone should just let him eat Earth? Heck, you can argue Mesphisto is part of the natural order as well, good cannot exist without evil, so should Mesphisto be allowed to take over the universe? You can apply this logic to many Marvel cosmic beings.

Wait, why should i hate the innocent movie-verse Scarlet Witch for what her 616 universe versión did ?. That like hating the Agents of Shield (tv show) for what SHIELD does in the comics ?.



So Death (Thanos' on-and-off girlfriend) should ask for permission to kill someone ?, because, after all, who gave her the right to do that ?.

Again Mephsito and Galactus are part of the natural order of things, does that mean Galactus should eat Earth and no one should complain and Mepshisto should spread pain across the cosmos and no one should complain?

I mean people die natural Deaths all the time, but when Thanos tries to kill a billions of beings to please Death is that presented as okay? I also don't remember Claremont giving the Phoenix the right to do whatever it wants to, in the original phoenix story.

Cosmic beings are not usually presented as morally superior to everyone else in the MU.

[ExodusCloak]

Considering the Phoenix once blew up a galaxy for kicks and that was presented as a bad thing, I would not trust the Phoenix completely either. In the original Phoenix Saga, Claremont did not say the Phoenix gets to do whatever it wants and people should just go along with it, when the Phoenix did something wrong it was presented that way.

You can argue Galactus is part of the natural order of things, does that mean everyone should just let him eat Earth? Heck, you can argue Mesphisto is part of the natural order as well, good cannot exist without evil, so should Mesphisto be allowed to take over the universe? You can apply this logic to many Marvel cosmic beings.

Galactus in his present form and Phoenix are very different and it was revealed later on that those broccoli people were an evolutionary dead end. In Excalibur when the Phoenix was being erased the entire universe starting dying.

Mephisto is not in the same rank of cosmic being as the Phoenix Force, which is a Force. Mephisto is not an abstract. Heck it's argued quite recently that Mephisto is a poser and the abrahamic satan has not shown himself but no one dare sit on his seat. Death and Oblivion are abstracts. So are Eternity and Infinity. If Eternity dies the 616 goes with it.