Is Carlie's departure no fault, but her own character ?

[Cmbmool]

Given Carlie's departure at the end of Superior Spider-man, it made me think....I mean I know wit was to get away from Peter and all the craziness, but is it no fault, it her own character ?

I mean, she was captured by the Goblin Nation, because of the information she had and it changed for the worse, even the cure didn't fully help her out and reverted her to normal.

Also, given that she was the only one that knew the truth, she could've help Peter learn what he missed while he was away, instead of Peter finding out for himself, right ?


Slott could have the excuse to rework the Carlie and Peter relationship/friendship into something better this time around.

I mean instead of pushing her away they could've used her in the rebooted Amazing series as a voice of reason for Peter to have, especially given all the build up they had during the BIG TIME era.

However, as Spider-man fans, what do you all think of this ?

Also for the mods, this is my first thread of the new forum/community and I am trying to obey the rules within, right ?

[Sardorim]

I think her leaving was because fans simply didn't like her getting close to Peter or even being his friend because she was in the way of MJ/Peter.

Anna can stay because she loves Spock and Peter has no love for her, as he doesn't even know her, so it could be interesting. That and I'm sure Slott wants Peter to discover everything again on his own so Anna would throw curve balls at him while Carlie would just be... Carlie.

[Alan2099]

The first love interest after MJ was destined to fail. There were simply too many readers that took it as a personal insult. Other than the artists not getting together and figuring out a distinct haircut for the girl, there was nothing wrong with her character.

[AJpyro]

The first love interest after MJ was destined to fail. There were simply too many readers that took it as a personal insult. Other than the artists not getting together and figuring out a distinct haircut for the girl, there was nothing wrong with her character.

Just goes to show, rush jobs end horribly.

[Pako]

Its always the curse of MJ, just like people are starting to call for Anna Maria's death.

[Mister Mets]

I think she's in an interesting position as an ex-girlfriend of Spider-Man's on the police force.

But there are only a finite number of supporting charcters who can, or should, be in the series at a particular time.

Others are a better fit for the story Slott's telling right now.

MJ, Jonah and Aunt May are the most popular.

Sajani is Peter's coworker. Jonah Sr is currently his financial backer.

And then there's Anna Maria Marconi and all the terrified employees.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

We don't know if she'd gone for good.

I'd like her to be, but she might come back in a few months.

And while there was nothing inherently wrong with her character, there wasn't really anything all that great about her character either. And all the pushing to promote her as a "great" love interest and a "perfect" character who was "perfect" for Peter probably didn't sit right with a lot of people.

[Aruran.]

Honestly, the only thing that bugged me about Carlie was her being a cop.
Peter interacting with the law-enforcement in his personal life is really weird in my opinion, cause it just portrays either Peter as a jerk or the cop as one. And if they're all buddy-buddy theres no real conflict. Like what happened with Vin Gonzales is my point, Carlie didn't do much better in my opinion either.

When I think back to the relationship though, there was nothing really mind-blowing about what was going on. All it was really Peter's first serious relationship since MJ, other than that theres nothing really important about it. There were more stuff that happened after they broke up that made her interesting, but nothing really during the relationship.

Carlie only real flaw was that she was designed as "the girl after MJ", so Marvel just made her a character that would get the hate for being made. The thing they didn't realize though, is that every girl will face this problem cause they aren't Mary Jane Watson.

[Pako]

Give any character 40-50 years in the main cast and they can be as good or better than MJ. If Marvel decides to let them live long enough without being struck by MJ's curse, that is. If they're only kept around for a couple years before being killed off for the next round of MJ tease, no girl will ever have the chance to go up against MJ. And neither would anyone give a care long enough to be invested.

[Kevinroc]

Give any character 40-50 years in the main cast and they can be as good or better than MJ. If Marvel decides to let them live long enough without being struck by MJ's curse, that is. If they're only kept around for a couple years before being killed off for the next round of MJ tease, no girl will ever have the chance to go up against MJ. And neither would anyone give a care long enough to be invested.

But any character would be at a distinct disadvantage. They weren't created by some combination of Stan Lee, Steve Ditko or John Romita, Sr. They have enough trouble created costumed criminals for Spidey to face outside of Lee/Ditko/Romita. The actual supporting cast fare even worse.

So the idea that a new love interest could usurp MJ's position is easier said than done.

[RD!]

Carlie wasn't a good character. Slott started to use her better in Big Time and Superior, but the damage was already done. While it was hard for whoever would be the next girl after MJ, Norah was warmly received after two issues and fans took to Michele more than Carlie too. People like flawed characters, or characters with actual character and Carlie was far too bland for 90 odd issues -- not to mention how even MJ, Black Cat and Aunt May raved about her being so good. It did not sit well. I won't miss her and I'm looking forward to meeting some new characters in ASM now.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

I think that the "failure" of Carlie can be attributed to several things. The first thing is that Carlie was pushed way too hard by the creative forces behind the book. Things like putting her one the cover of the book "The Many Loves of Spider-Man" alongside major names like Black Cat, Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy when she wasn't even in a romantic relationship with Peter yet, the constant praising of her character as being "perfect" by others in the book, and the enthusiasm from the creators about how great she was which never made it to the page contributed to the image that she was being pushed onto the readers over other characters, to which there was some truth. Perhaps the final straw was the claim by MJ that Peter "Finally learned how to pick them" after Carlie had fired upon Tombstone during the "Origin of the Species" arc, which felt very much like TV Tropes described as "Shilling the Wesley" which entails an established character signing the praises of an unpopular one. The line itself seems rather odd, given that MJ's character had no real problems with Peter's other love interests, nor did he have a history of dating questionable women. The line seemed positioned solely to elevate Carlie by using MJ's credibility, and rather blatantly so.

In addition, Carlie is perhaps a good example of how a character can sound good in theory, but not work as well in practice. In theory, a character that shares Peter's scientific interests and in his intellectual equal sounds appropriate. In addition, having a contact on the force seems like a way to make things easier for Peter in his role as Spider-Man. And it would seem reasonable that a long lasting relationship would be established through parties with matching interests and personalities. However, when it comes to putting these elements into practice, they don't work as well. Peter doesn't really need anyone to help him out scientifically. His intelligence means that he is and has been capable of using his scientific knowledge on his own to solve problems. Peter has had many contacts on the force without requiring to be romantically attached to said contact. And while real life relationships require similar interests and personalities, in narrative fiction it is conflict that fuels drama. That's why you have characters like Han Solo and Princess Leia, Sam and Diane, Batman and Catwoman, and Benedict and Beatrice last so long and become so iconic. Creating commonality may be good for a couple in real life, but it is the conflicts that make things interesting in fiction. It gives the parties something to overcome and stakes to work towards.

And in practice, Carlie tended to fall apart. Carlie really had no identifiable personality. Yes, she was a scientist, but that was a profession, not a personality. Michelle Gonzales may have been a lawyer, but she was also a tough as nails, take no prisoner type of person. Norah Winters was a journalist, but she was also flirty, energetic and spontaneous. Carlie was smart, but we knew nothing beyond that. And when there came time to grow that personality, to add complexity, the narrative chose not to. When it seemed like this decent young woman actually harbored a dark side during "Character Assassination," the twist was that, no, she was actually playing the corrupt cops and was on Spider-Man's side the whole time. Attempts to make Carlie more sympathetic instead did the opposite, making her look less appealing and likeable. True, Carlie's character had her own share of problems that she did have to overcome, her father's return for example. But she is not the protagonist of the book. Peter is, and is is his character where the reader's sympathies will lie. So when Carlie tells Peter that he doesn't understand what it's like to go through a gauntlet, the intent may have been to show that Carlie can be sound council to Peter, the interpretation comes across that she is criticizing Peter without learning anything about his history, which the reader's know to be full of trial after trial after trail, the extent of which Carlie's character can only glimpse a fraction of. When Carlie is ditched by Peter during their first intimate encounter, her attempts to get a tattoo may seem to be a way to show how upset she is. But when she shows that she doesn't even know why Peter dislikes the Green Goblin, it makes her character seem shallow and self interested rather than sympathetic to Peter's problems. And when she finds out Peter's secret, instead of showing sympathy for what he went through, the character instead turns it around and makes it about her, and how betrayed she feels, rather than showing a concern for the dangers Peter went through. Nor does the character stop to consider Peter's side of the issue. It is only after Peter has died that she actually shows concern and respect for him and the life he leads.

There did seem to be a disconnect between what was said about the character and what the character did. We may be told that Carlie, due to knowing the Wraith's duel identity, that it truly means that she could have handled Peter's dual identity. But being cognizant of a dual identity is not the same as being able to handle such knowledge. The last arc of Superior actually shows that Carlie, at the end of the day, couldn't handle such knowledge and chose to flee rather than risk even being associated with Peter ever again. Carlie could have been a great character, if she was meant to be a deconstruction of the notion of what one would consider a "perfect" mate for Spider-Man and how the ideas don't line up with the reality. But unfortunately, Carlie's problem was that she was a rather average character who wasn't given much thought into her presentation and into trying to making her into a complex character and honestly develop a well rounded personality. She was a character that the creators believed to be a good fit because she sounded good in theory. But they failed to take into account that an interesting idea doesn't necessarily translate into a good character or a good story.

[CrimsonEchidna]

I think that the "failure" of Carlie can be attributed to several things. The first thing is that Carlie was pushed way too hard by the creative forces behind the book. Things like putting her one the cover of the book "The Many Loves of Spider-Man" alongside major names like Black Cat, Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy when she wasn't even in a romantic relationship with Peter yet, the constant praising of her character as being "perfect" by others in the book, and the enthusiasm from the creators about how great she was which never made it to the page contributed to the image that she was being pushed onto the readers over other characters, to which there was some truth. Perhaps the final straw was the claim by MJ that Peter "Finally learned how to pick them" after Carlie had fired upon Tombstone during the "Origin of the Species" arc, which felt very much like TV Tropes described as "Shilling the Wesley" which entails an established character signing the praises of an unpopular one. The line itself seems rather odd, given that MJ's character had no real problems with Peter's other love interests, nor did he have a history of dating questionable women. The line seemed positioned solely to elevate Carlie by using MJ's credibility, and rather blatantly so.

In addition, Carlie is perhaps a good example of how a character can sound good in theory, but not work as well in practice. In theory, a character that shares Peter's scientific interests and in his intellectual equal sounds appropriate. In addition, having a contact on the force seems like a way to make things easier for Peter in his role as Spider-Man. And it would seem reasonable that a long lasting relationship would be established through parties with matching interests and personalities. However, when it comes to putting these elements into practice, they don't work as well. Peter doesn't really need anyone to help him out scientifically. His intelligence means that he is and has been capable of using his scientific knowledge on his own to solve problems. Peter has had many contacts on the force without requiring to be romantically attached to said contact. And while real life relationships require similar interests and personalities, in narrative fiction it is conflict that fuels drama. That's why you have characters like Han Solo and Princess Leia, Sam and Diane, Batman and Catwoman, and Benedict and Beatrice last so long and become so iconic. Creating commonality may be good for a couple in real life, but it is the conflicts that make things interesting in fiction. It gives the parties something to overcome and stakes to work towards.

And in practice, Carlie tended to fall apart. Carlie really had no identifiable personality. Yes, she was a scientist, but that was a profession, not a personality. Michelle Gonzales may have been a lawyer, but she was also a tough as nails, take no prisoner type of person. Norah Winters was a journalist, but she was also flirty, energetic and spontaneous. Carlie was smart, but we knew nothing beyond that. And when there came time to grow that personality, to add complexity, the narrative chose not to. When it seemed like this decent young woman actually harbored a dark side during "Character Assassination," the twist was that, no, she was actually playing the corrupt cops and was on Spider-Man's side the whole time. Attempts to make Carlie more sympathetic instead did the opposite, making her look less appealing and likeable. True, Carlie's character had her own share of problems that she did have to overcome, her father's return for example. But she is not the protagonist of the book. Peter is, and is is his character where the reader's sympathies will lie. So when Carlie tells Peter that he doesn't understand what it's like to go through a gauntlet, the intent may have been to show that Carlie can be sound council to Peter, the interpretation comes across that she is criticizing Peter without learning anything about his history, which the reader's know to be full of trial after trial after trail, the extent of which Carlie's character can only glimpse a fraction of. When Carlie is ditched by Peter during their first intimate encounter, her attempts to get a tattoo may seem to be a way to show how upset she is. But when she shows that she doesn't even know why Peter dislikes the Green Goblin, it makes her character seem shallow and self interested rather than sympathetic to Peter's problems. And when she finds out Peter's secret, instead of showing sympathy for what he went through, the character instead turns it around and makes it about her, and how betrayed she feels, rather than showing a concern for the dangers Peter went through. Nor does the character stop to consider Peter's side of the issue. It is only after Peter has died that she actually shows concern and respect for him and the life he leads.

There did seem to be a disconnect between what was said about the character and what the character did. We may be told that Carlie, due to knowing the Wraith's duel identity, that it truly means that she could have handled Peter's dual identity. But being cognizant of a dual identity is not the same as being able to handle such knowledge. The last arc of Superior actually shows that Carlie, at the end of the day, couldn't handle such knowledge and chose to flee rather than risk even being associated with Peter ever again. Carlie could have been a great character, if she was meant to be a deconstruction of the notion of what one would consider a "perfect" mate for Spider-Man and how the ideas don't line up with the reality. But unfortunately, Carlie's problem was that she was a rather average character who wasn't given much thought into her presentation and into trying to making her into a complex character and honestly develop a well rounded personality. She was a character that the creators believed to be a good fit because she sounded good in theory. But they failed to take into account that an interesting idea doesn't necessarily translate into a good character or a good story.

Well said. There was nothing fundamentally wrong with Carlie just that she was pushed before really establishingly her character firmly. It's like when Stan Lee admitted that they kept tweaking Gwen to make her more popular like Mary Jane. "Oh you think Carlie is boring? But look here, she's in a roller derby!"

[Darth Howie]

Carlie Cooper never stood a chance. Nor will any Spidey love interest other than Mary Jane. The fans will just reject them all. The only one who comes even CLOSE to standing a chance is Felicia Hardy because she predates OMD and because her relationship with Spider-Man is just plain DIFFERENT, but every other Parker girlfriend will be compared to MJ and will never measure up because too many people want Peter and MJ back together.

[Derek Metaltron]

The only woman I reckon had a chance to work with Spidey outside MJ and possibly Felica was Carol Danvers, and the Spidey office seemed to take an immediate dislike to allowing that pairing to run its course because Spidey is 'supposed to only date people who don't have powers and don't know his secret'.