Is Carlie's departure no fault, but her own character ?

[Darkspellmaster]

RobertMacQuarrie1 well put! I can only add a little more to this in regards to Carlie and other women in Peter's life. As Darth Howie pointed out Stan and the writers kept trying to tweak Gwen to make her more likable, the problem wasn't that she was against MJ it was the fact that they couldn't seem to find the right personality for her, making her come off as Bipolar at points. The thing about MJ that worked and still does was the fact that she grew out of being a supporting Character and into being a love interest. Yes her name was dropped several times before and she was a bit of a gag before her first appearance, but when she was actually written in she was more a buddy than anything else. That's why people wanted her with Peter in the first place, she wasn't positioned to become the love interest, she was there as a Veronica to Gwen's Betty as it were.

One could make a memorable character that can date peter. The thing is that the writers can't allow it to happen until the character has an established story of their own. MJ started off dating Harry. She wasn't outright interested in dating Peter. The same would have to be done here. The Character would have to be a friend first. Someone that was in Peter's circle but wasn't outright interested in him romantically. Carlie could have worked as this, someone who was Peter's friend, and could have slowly built an established character focusing on something personally unique about her. Maybe she could have been a closeted super hero fan like Billy, or working on a cop novel, or even something as simple as having a fantasy of making some kind of fun painting. Any of those could have been used to give her something for the fans to grab onto and allowed for more personality to grow out of events where Peter and her hung out as friends.

Example with the roller derby. You have peter find out she's been sneaking out to do something, and at first he thinks she's going to meet with someone but then learns the truth and comes to see her at her derby. You can use her friends from there as a way to get inside how she works with team mates and friends outside of work. That would have allowed for personality to grow, but it was ignored. It seemed like everyone so wanted to get rid of the MJ and Peter idea that they just sort of shoved and shoved rather than, you know, let it grow organically.

[CrimsonEchidna]

The only woman I reckon had a chance to work with Spidey outside MJ and possibly Felica was Carol Danvers, and the Spidey office seemed to take an immediate dislike to allowing that pairing to run its course because Spidey is 'supposed to only date people who don't have powers and don't know his secret'.

Not going to lie, I was actually intrigued by that and was sad when they shot it down so quickly.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

One could make a memorable character that can date peter. The thing is that the writers can't allow it to happen until the character has an established story of their own. MJ started off dating Harry. She wasn't outright interested in dating Peter. The same would have to be done here. The Character would have to be a friend first. Someone that was in Peter's circle but wasn't outright interested in him romantically. Carlie could have worked as this, someone who was Peter's friend, and could have slowly built an established character focusing on something personally unique about her. Maybe she could have been a closeted super hero fan like Billy, or working on a cop novel, or even something as simple as having a fantasy of making some kind of fun painting. Any of those could have been used to give her something for the fans to grab onto and allowed for more personality to grow out of events where Peter and her hung out as friends. .

The thing of it is, I do think the creators tried to do that. Dan Slott has said that his initial conception for Carlie's character was that she was this person that was "always there" that Peter just "didn't see," until later on when he would realize she was always there for him. So there was an attempt to establish her as a character first, but I think that part of the problem with Carlie was that such attempts ended up being rather shallow and superficial, due to what I'd hypothesize was a considerable misreading of the franchise and established characters.

I have a personal theory that Dan Slott didn't actually want to use MJ in the role of principal love interest during his run. I believe that he probably wanted to use Carlie and only Carlie as the key love interest. Given his reading history, I wouldn't be surprised if Dan regards MJ less as being Spider-Man's girl, and more along the lines of her being the "One that Got Away." The girl who "Couldn't be tied down." This can be seen in places like his recent interview for Word Balloon, where he seems rather defensive of characters like Carlie Cooper and Joy Mercado, stating that they never really had a chance in the shadow of MJ, and that her presence along essentially led to the death of Gwen Stacy. Dan seems less than enthused regarding MJ's character, and seemed to treat her like an inevitability rather than a character whose presence in the franchise is something of legitimate merit and interest. That he had to use her, rather than wanting to use her. His references to how attractive both MJ and Gwen were, in comparison to someone like Anna Marie who isn't as physically attractive and his defense of Carlie, seems to imply that he would prefer Peter to be attached to a more appropriate female love interest for his character and interests. And since he measures MJ on her physical beauty first- as do a lot of other writers- it is that element to which it would seem many would want to contrast with their own character. So when you are trying to contrast someone who is physically beautiful and makes their living on said beauty, who better to do that than someone who would emphasize their intelligence rather than their looks?

The problem with this is that it is based on a misconception and misrepresentation of the relationship. Yes, MJ is physically attractive. As was Gwen. And Felicia. Most women designed by John Romita Sr. are physically attractive. This is part of his style. However, Peter was not interested in MJ solely due to her beauty. Yes, he was enraptured by her at first. But after she made it clear that she wasn't interested in a serious relationship, Peter turned his attentions to Gwen who reciprocated his affections. Peter wasn't someone solely interested in sexual activities with women. If he was, he wouldn't have had as many relationship problems. Peter wanted to form a relationship with someone. And it was only after Gwen's death when MJ matured as a person and when she actually started to show that she wanted to be in a relationship with Peter that he began to seriously return her affections. This was not a shallow relationship based simply on Peter liking how MJ looked. This was a deep relationship that was forged not in the best of times, but in the worst of them. They were a couple that struggled and overcame a lot of obstacles. If this was just a relationship based on physical attraction, then it wouldn't have lasted as long. But MJ was a character that developed far beyond a pretty face and became a well rounded character in her own right.

However, there are those that unfortunately seem to overlook that and just focus on her physical attractiveness. That because she is pretty it somehow undermines her entire relationship with Peter and makes him harder to relate to. They tend to overlook or ignore the fact that her beauty is not something that makes everything better, and hardly ever plays a factor in their stories. It's not Peter is eased by being with a beautiful woman, and more his concerns are eased by someone who cares for him and understands his pain and tries to help him through it. They just focus on her beauty, and so when creating a character in response to MJ's presence, such characterization ends up being shallow and superficial. MJ is more than just a pretty face. But if you are just focusing on her pretty face, you miss the depth of her character and the length of her history with the protagonist. It's not as simple as saying "MJ is pretty, but this character is smart, therefore she's a better match or just as if not more interesting." A character needs to be fully developed with depth and complexity. This is where Carlie failed, because she wasn't given any depth. She wasn't made complex. She always made the right decision, was always in the right, and was never depicted having any flaws to overcome. Compare this to MJ, or Felicia, or even Gwen, who while starting out shallow and superficial, but all grew into something more deep in complex.

[stillanerd]

I think that the "failure" of Carlie can be attributed to several things. The first thing is that Carlie was pushed way too hard by the creative forces behind the book. Things like putting her one the cover of the book "The Many Loves of Spider-Man" alongside major names like Black Cat, Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy when she wasn't even in a romantic relationship with Peter yet, the constant praising of her character as being "perfect" by others in the book, and the enthusiasm from the creators about how great she was which never made it to the page contributed to the image that she was being pushed onto the readers over other characters, to which there was some truth. Perhaps the final straw was the claim by MJ that Peter "Finally learned how to pick them" after Carlie had fired upon Tombstone during the "Origin of the Species" arc, which felt very much like TV Tropes described as "Shilling the Wesley" which entails an established character signing the praises of an unpopular one. The line itself seems rather odd, given that MJ's character had no real problems with Peter's other love interests, nor did he have a history of dating questionable women. The line seemed positioned solely to elevate Carlie by using MJ's credibility, and rather blatantly so.

In addition, Carlie is perhaps a good example of how a character can sound good in theory, but not work as well in practice. In theory, a character that shares Peter's scientific interests and in his intellectual equal sounds appropriate. In addition, having a contact on the force seems like a way to make things easier for Peter in his role as Spider-Man. And it would seem reasonable that a long lasting relationship would be established through parties with matching interests and personalities. However, when it comes to putting these elements into practice, they don't work as well. Peter doesn't really need anyone to help him out scientifically. His intelligence means that he is and has been capable of using his scientific knowledge on his own to solve problems. Peter has had many contacts on the force without requiring to be romantically attached to said contact. And while real life relationships require similar interests and personalities, in narrative fiction it is conflict that fuels drama. That's why you have characters like Han Solo and Princess Leia, Sam and Diane, Batman and Catwoman, and Benedict and Beatrice last so long and become so iconic. Creating commonality may be good for a couple in real life, but it is the conflicts that make things interesting in fiction. It gives the parties something to overcome and stakes to work towards.

And in practice, Carlie tended to fall apart. Carlie really had no identifiable personality. Yes, she was a scientist, but that was a profession, not a personality. Michelle Gonzales may have been a lawyer, but she was also a tough as nails, take no prisoner type of person. Norah Winters was a journalist, but she was also flirty, energetic and spontaneous. Carlie was smart, but we knew nothing beyond that. And when there came time to grow that personality, to add complexity, the narrative chose not to. When it seemed like this decent young woman actually harbored a dark side during "Character Assassination," the twist was that, no, she was actually playing the corrupt cops and was on Spider-Man's side the whole time. Attempts to make Carlie more sympathetic instead did the opposite, making her look less appealing and likeable. True, Carlie's character had her own share of problems that she did have to overcome, her father's return for example. But she is not the protagonist of the book. Peter is, and is is his character where the reader's sympathies will lie. So when Carlie tells Peter that he doesn't understand what it's like to go through a gauntlet, the intent may have been to show that Carlie can be sound council to Peter, the interpretation comes across that she is criticizing Peter without learning anything about his history, which the reader's know to be full of trial after trial after trail, the extent of which Carlie's character can only glimpse a fraction of. When Carlie is ditched by Peter during their first intimate encounter, her attempts to get a tattoo may seem to be a way to show how upset she is. But when she shows that she doesn't even know why Peter dislikes the Green Goblin, it makes her character seem shallow and self interested rather than sympathetic to Peter's problems. And when she finds out Peter's secret, instead of showing sympathy for what he went through, the character instead turns it around and makes it about her, and how betrayed she feels, rather than showing a concern for the dangers Peter went through. Nor does the character stop to consider Peter's side of the issue. It is only after Peter has died that she actually shows concern and respect for him and the life he leads.

There did seem to be a disconnect between what was said about the character and what the character did. We may be told that Carlie, due to knowing the Wraith's duel identity, that it truly means that she could have handled Peter's dual identity. But being cognizant of a dual identity is not the same as being able to handle such knowledge. The last arc of Superior actually shows that Carlie, at the end of the day, couldn't handle such knowledge and chose to flee rather than risk even being associated with Peter ever again. Carlie could have been a great character, if she was meant to be a deconstruction of the notion of what one would consider a "perfect" mate for Spider-Man and how the ideas don't line up with the reality. But unfortunately, Carlie's problem was that she was a rather average character who wasn't given much thought into her presentation and into trying to making her into a complex character and honestly develop a well rounded personality. She was a character that the creators believed to be a good fit because she sounded good in theory. But they failed to take into account that an interesting idea doesn't necessarily translate into a good character or a good story.

You have perfectly and articulately summed up the very problems with Carlie Cooper as a character in a nutshell. Well done!

[Aruran.]

The thing of it is, I do think the creators tried to do that. Dan Slott has said that his initial conception for Carlie's character was that she was this person that was "always there" that Peter just "didn't see," until later on when he would realize she was always there for him. So there was an attempt to establish her as a character first, but I think that part of the problem with Carlie was that such attempts ended up being rather shallow and superficial, due to what I'd hypothesize was a considerable misreading of the franchise and established characters.

Honestly, I just think it was a dropped ball by everyone in the Spidey offices at the time. All the writers were coming off controversial story that changed Spider-Man's past and future. The last thing they wanted to do was to be hypocrites and have Peter actively date someone for the purpose of marrying and spending his future with them. Carlie was clearly made a romantic interest from the get go, where everyone knew she would be his next girlfriend following MJ. The problem was just organizing the developments with their friendship, I mean Peter goes from meeting the girl to hanging out with her in his free time in matter of 3 issues. That was on them for messing it up, because they were telling more stories with Peter's relationships with the new people he's met, and not clearly focusing on the one that should've mattered. Their was a focus on Peter and Carlie, but at that point it was the Gauntlet, which itself was more about the return of old Spidey villains and Peter wearing down.

I have a personal theory that Dan Slott didn't actually want to use MJ in the role of principal love interest during his run. I believe that he probably wanted to use Carlie and only Carlie as the key love interest. Given his reading history, I wouldn't be surprised if Dan regards MJ less as being Spider-Man's girl, and more along the lines of her being the "One that Got Away." The girl who "Couldn't be tied down." This can be seen in places like his recent interview for Word Balloon, where he seems rather defensive of characters like Carlie Cooper and Joy Mercado, stating that they never really had a chance in the shadow of MJ, and that her presence along essentially led to the death of Gwen Stacy. Dan seems less than enthused regarding MJ's character, and seemed to treat her like an inevitability rather than a character whose presence in the franchise is something of legitimate merit and interest. That he had to use her, rather than wanting to use her. His references to how attractive both MJ and Gwen were, in comparison to someone like Anna Marie who isn't as physically attractive and his defense of Carlie, seems to imply that he would prefer Peter to be attached to a more appropriate female love interest for his character and interests. And since he measures MJ on her physical beauty first- as do a lot of other writers- it is that element to which it would seem many would want to contrast with their own character. So when you are trying to contrast someone who is physically beautiful and makes their living on said beauty, who better to do that than someone who would emphasize their intelligence rather than their looks?

I will agree that Dan Slott wouldn't have wanted to use MJ, but it is for another reason. When you consider what OMD and OMIT where about, they easily could've had MJ and Peter back together again just not married. With MJ, she is his soulmate/truelove/everything. So with Dan, his initial premise of Spider-Man is that his life isn't easy, and not having MJ in his life proves that point. Like Dan raved about their relationship, and no one working at Marvel right now said they don't belong together.

The problem really is they don't wanna go back to having Peter and MJ as a couple, cause it's just like if Peter was married again. If Dan gets them back together, it doesn't make it easier for the next writer who might not be comfortable writing a committed Spider-Man. And especially when we all know how much effort it took to break them up in the first place, theres no point in doing that. So having Peter be in a relationship with anyone doesn't work, cause once you use up the appeal that its a new relationship there aren't really any new stories to tell with them that haven't been told with Peter and MJ.


Which really goes back to the why Carlie Cooper didn't work. Had she not been the girl to date Peter after MJ, then she would still be in the story. Carlie really exist as another character who life got ruined by Spider-Man. Her best friend turned into a monster, got disrespected by her fellow coworkers, and got kidnapped by a psycho who turned her into a monster. Had Norah Winters and Carlie switched positions in the comic, and Norah became the one after MJ, the same thing would've happened too.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Honestly, I just think it was a dropped ball by everyone in the Spidey offices at the time. All the writers were coming off controversial story that changed Spider-Man's past and future. The last thing they wanted to do was to be hypocrites and have Peter actively date someone for the purpose of marrying and spending his future with them. Carlie was clearly made a romantic interest from the get go, where everyone knew she would be his next girlfriend following MJ. The problem was just organizing the developments with their friendship, I mean Peter goes from meeting the girl to hanging out with her in his free time in matter of 3 issues. That was on them for messing it up, because they were telling more stories with Peter's relationships with the new people he's met, and not clearly focusing on the one that should've mattered. Their was a focus on Peter and Carlie, but at that point it was the Gauntlet, which itself was more about the return of old Spidey villains and Peter wearing down.

I don't theorize that the creators had an intention of wanting to have Peter get together with a female love interest for the purposes of marrying them off. I think the ones on the book at the time would agree they didn't go down that path. But I do agree with the argument of not wanting to be seen as hypocrites, or at the very least, personally motivated. Their desire to not have him with MJ may have less to do with a true concern regarding the future of the franchise, and more a personal desire to have their own preferred love interest on Spider-Man's arm.

I will agree that Dan Slott wouldn't have wanted to use MJ, but it is for another reason. When you consider what OMD and OMIT where about, they easily could've had MJ and Peter back together again just not married. With MJ, she is his soulmate/truelove/everything. So with Dan, his initial premise of Spider-Man is that his life isn't easy, and not having MJ in his life proves that point. Like Dan raved about their relationship, and no one working at Marvel right now said they don't belong together.

I would disagree with this point. I don't think that OMIT could ever be about Peter and MJ getting back together as a couple. I do hypothesize that the story of OMIT was always meant to be about the end of Peter and MJ's relationship. That it was to be the final nail in the coffin. But I also hypothesize that the intent of OMIT changed after OMD, and became softened to be less the definitive end, and more the possible end. But then the reaction to OMIT was just as toxic as the reaction to OMD, which caused a change in the position towards their relationship afterwards in Big Time on.

I'd theorize that Dan Slott's real premise was that MJ was just the "Girl who got away," and would be in a similar position that Betty Brant had in the one off tale he told about Spider-Man's Greatest Sin- a good friend, but nothing more. I'd hypothesize that he wanted Carlie as the sole love interest, but that was changed during the early stages of the planning of Big Time to where she became more of a presence. However, I would like to point out that this is just a theory, and I in no way feel that this is the absolute truth of what happened. It's just what I theorize may have happened.

The problem really is they don't wanna go back to having Peter and MJ as a couple, cause it's just like if Peter was married again. If Dan gets them back together, it doesn't make it easier for the next writer who might not be comfortable writing a committed Spider-Man. And especially when we all know how much effort it took to break them up in the first place, theres no point in doing that. So having Peter be in a relationship with anyone doesn't work, cause once you use up the appeal that its a new relationship there aren't really any new stories to tell with them that haven't been told with Peter and MJ.

I actually don't think Marvel- be it editorial, creative or marketing- actually would have any problems with Peter and MJ being together as a couple. Being married, probably that would get a veto. But I think that there would be no issue with the couple being seen together, particularly because Marvel has no problem using the couple in marketing material for the company.

Right now, I think it is just a personal creative position by the sole writer of Spider-Man at this point. The reason Peter and MJ aren't a couple is because I don't think Dan Slott wants to put them together as of yet. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't get together until his very last story.

Which really goes back to the why Carlie Cooper didn't work. Had she not been the girl to date Peter after MJ, then she would still be in the story. Carlie really exist as another character who life got ruined by Spider-Man. Her best friend turned into a monster, got disrespected by her fellow coworkers, and got kidnapped by a psycho who turned her into a monster. Had Norah Winters and Carlie switched positions in the comic, and Norah became the one after MJ, the same thing would've happened too.

I'd disagree. Neither Michelle or Norah dated Peter, and they aren't in the book anymore either. I don't think Carlie really had the presence to stay around long. True, coming out of the heels of OMD didn't help. But neither did her lackluster and thin personality.

[Aruran.]

I don't theorize that the creators had an intention of wanting to have Peter get together with a female love interest for the purposes of marrying them off. I think the ones on the book at the time would agree they didn't go down that path. But I do agree with the argument of not wanting to be seen as hypocrites, or at the very least, personally motivated. Their desire to not have him with MJ may have less to do with a true concern regarding the future of the franchise, and more a personal desire to have their own preferred love interest on Spider-Man's arm.

I really just don't think they have a preferred love interest, nor do they have the freedom in choosing who he ends up with. Early on I do think they tried, but then they realized with the fallout from OMD it would never happen.

I would disagree with this point. I don't think that OMIT could ever be about Peter and MJ getting back together as a couple. I do hypothesize that the story of OMIT was always meant to be about the end of Peter and MJ's relationship. That it was to be the final nail in the coffin. But I also hypothesize that the intent of OMIT changed after OMD, and became softened to be less the definitive end, and more the possible end. But then the reaction to OMIT was just as toxic as the reaction to OMD, which caused a change in the position towards their relationship afterwards in Big Time on.

Maybe, but I'm not really sold on that. OMIT was originally the final pages of OMD that were to explain what Mesphito did, only for the methodology to be question causing it to be pushed back as a separate issue. I really think OMIT was just Marvel acknowledging they don't want Peter and MJ right now, but they aren't denying someone in the future of bringing them back together. That's how I read it, they don't wanna do it, but later on it might be beneficial for another creative team.

I'd theorize that Dan Slott's real premise was that MJ was just the "Girl who got away," and would be in a similar position that Betty Brant had in the one off tale he told about Spider-Man's Greatest Sin- a good friend, but nothing more. I'd hypothesize that he wanted Carlie as the sole love interest, but that was changed during the early stages of the planning of Big Time to where she became more of a presence. However, I would like to point out that this is just a theory, and I in no way feel that this is the absolute truth of what happened. It's just what I theorize may have happened.

I actually don't think Marvel- be it editorial, creative or marketing- actually would have any problems with Peter and MJ being together as a couple. Being married, probably that would get a veto. But I think that there would be no issue with the couple being seen together, particularly because Marvel has no problem using the couple in marketing material for the company.

Right now, I think it is just a personal creative position by the sole writer of Spider-Man at this point. The reason Peter and MJ aren't a couple is because I don't think Dan Slott wants to put them together as of yet. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't get together until his very last story.

I'd disagree. Neither Michelle or Norah dated Peter, and they aren't in the book anymore either. I don't think Carlie really had the presence to stay around long. True, coming out of the heels of OMD didn't help. But neither did her lackluster and thin personality.

Ok, I read BND and Big Time at all once, so maybe this is why I don't see it like that. I'm just guessing but you probably read it week to week, so just having the waits between each issue and the interviews they did caused you to question why they are going in that direction.

From the start, Carlie really just seemed like a girl Peter could marry or be with, but really he's gonna screw it up cause of Spider-Man. Like there were opportunities where it could've worked out, but it didn't cause of Spider-Man. Maybe Marvel was hoping Carlie could work, but it didn't was really no big deal for them.

What I saw from what I read, is that they really don't want Peter and MJ for a long time. They all will acknowledge that the relationship got too far, but no one in editorial stated they dislike them as a couple. And that's really where this comes down to, is if Peter and MJ get back together, how is it gonna be different from when they were married? They said all the stories where they were married work as if they were a committed couple, so doesn't that still make Peter's life easier when he's with someone who loves him and will spend the rest of his life with him?

In 2008 when it first happened, I wasn't reading ASM so I thought by the end of the year they'd be back together. It wasn't on my mind and so in 09 I looked and I was surprised MJ wasn't in the book for 08, but hearing about 600 i thought they would get back together soon. I really didn't pay any attention until after DOSM in Ultimate(end of 2011), that's when I decided to start reading ASM. That's when I was surprised Peter and MJ didn't get back together in those 4 years. And then I started reading the back issues, and the old interviews, so I finally understood why they didn't get back together in that time frame.

It really comes out that MJ made Peter's life easier by just being there, and Marvel wants Peter life to be difficult. BND ends with Peter and MJ acknowledging they could remain friends, which really helps Peter out. That 100 issue arc showed how difficult Peter's life was without MJ being there for him, and Big Time starts off with them being friends, and all of a sudden Peter's life starts getting better. Obviously more stuff happened but that's really a big point.

So that's really why Dan Slott or another writer has trepidation of bring them back together. It was really hard to break them up in the first place, and so they don't wanna put someone in an uncomfortable situation later on if they are together. If they get back together, its a long-term deal again which history has shown us is problematic to future writers.

[Hypestyle]

are her parents alive? does she have siblings? cousins? Her family background has been scarcely delved into?

the relative immaturity regarding Peter's "secret keeping" is kind of a dealbreaker for me- especially at this point she should realize the gravity of what "spider-man" has to deal with on a constant basis. You either accept it or you don't, you can't scold Peter for not being full-disclosure with literally every crisis-update. Not everyone is a social-media exhibitionist.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

I really just don't think they have a preferred love interest, nor do they have the freedom in choosing who he ends up with. Early on I do think they tried, but then they realized with the fallout from OMD it would never happen.

I agree. But I also don't think that there are those that may have worked under the assumption of "If I do this, then the readers will simply agree and think the way I do." As with anything, I think there are a wide variety of creator types. There are those that are probably very cognizant of what the impact of their work will be and how long lasting it is. And then there would be those that feel that their works will be the stuff that has long lasting appeal.

Maybe, but I'm not really sold on that. OMIT was originally the final pages of OMD that were to explain what Mesphito did, only for the methodology to be question causing it to be pushed back as a separate issue. I really think OMIT was just Marvel acknowledging they don't want Peter and MJ right now, but they aren't denying someone in the future of bringing them back together. That's how I read it, they don't wanna do it, but later on it might be beneficial for another creative team.

I think that was what OMIT eventually became. But my theory is that wasn't what OMIT was initially. This is just me going by what the creators were saying, but I do remember Stephen Wacker commenting on OMIT that it was initially planned for ASM# 600, but he didn't want to do it then because it felt like an "ending." But why would that be a bad thing? What I think might have happened was that there was a plan for OMIT, and it was meant to be the final nail in the coffin for Peter and MJ's relationship. The initial plan could be have OMD happen, let some time pass for the complaints to die down, and then have OMIT to end any sort of possibility for the reunion between Peter and MJ and open the door for future love interests, like Carlie (to bring the discussion back around to the topic at hand). But I think the toxic nature of OMD led to a rewriting of OMIT, and it was eventually pushed back as far as it could go, eventually leading Joe Q to try his hand at it in order to get it out of the way. And the ending of OMIT was rewritten for the purposes of possibly ending Peter and MJ for good, but left the door open in case people didn't like OMIT. Which they didn't.

However, I also hypothesize that OMIT could have just been the follow up to OMD, and it was pushed back and rewritten to avoid all connection to that story and pretend it never happened in the first place. Could be either one, but I do think the OMIT we got was not the OMIT that was initially planned.

Ok, I read BND and Big Time at all once, so maybe this is why I don't see it like that. I'm just guessing but you probably read it week to week, so just having the waits between each issue and the interviews they did caused you to question why they are going in that direction.

From the start, Carlie really just seemed like a girl Peter could marry or be with, but really he's gonna screw it up cause of Spider-Man. Like there were opportunities where it could've worked out, but it didn't cause of Spider-Man. Maybe Marvel was hoping Carlie could work, but it didn't was really no big deal for them.

True. But that's pretty much the relationship Peter had with every girlfriend. She's the girl he could be with, but Spider-Man is going to screw it up. It's the arc that he had with Betty, Gwen, MJ, Deb Whitman, Felicia (albeit inverted) and probably a lot of other female love interests. It's just the go-to style to depict Peter's relationships. But that being the initial part of the story doesn't mean that the creators didn't intend for Carlie to be the one and only love interest, for at least the majority of their run. They may not have felt Carlie was marriage material, but they may have just wanted her and her alone in the girlfriend role.

What I saw from what I read, is that they really don't want Peter and MJ for a long time. They all will acknowledge that the relationship got too far, but no one in editorial stated they dislike them as a couple. And that's really where this comes down to, is if Peter and MJ get back together, how is it gonna be different from when they were married? They said all the stories where they were married work as if they were a committed couple, so doesn't that still make Peter's life easier when he's with someone who loves him and will spend the rest of his life with him?

In 2008 when it first happened, I wasn't reading ASM so I thought by the end of the year they'd be back together. It wasn't on my mind and so in 09 I looked and I was surprised MJ wasn't in the book for 08, but hearing about 600 i thought they would get back together soon. I really didn't pay any attention until after DOSM in Ultimate(end of 2011), that's when I decided to start reading ASM. That's when I was surprised Peter and MJ didn't get back together in those 4 years. And then I started reading the back issues, and the old interviews, so I finally understood why they didn't get back together in that time frame.

I don't entirely agree. I think that enough time has passed from their initial break up that they could have reunited at some point before now. I liken it to a character being killed off and returning, such as Nightcrawler over in the X-Men. Yes, he was killed off in 2010, but he was returned three years later. Colossus was killed off and returned after five, and Hawkeye killed off and returned in less than two years. I believe if the creators wanted to do it, they could have reunited the couple at some earlier point.

It really comes out that MJ made Peter's life easier by just being there, and Marvel wants Peter life to be difficult. BND ends with Peter and MJ acknowledging they could remain friends, which really helps Peter out. That 100 issue arc showed how difficult Peter's life was without MJ being there for him, and Big Time starts off with them being friends, and all of a sudden Peter's life starts getting better. Obviously more stuff happened but that's really a big point.

I disagree, as I feel this is more a misconception about the series. The obstacle isn't that MJ does make Peter's life easier. Is that they believe MJ makes Peter's life better automatically and endlessly happy. And that they believe that Peter's life was endless struggle before then. But that isn't the case. When Peter was with MJ, their lives were all sun and roses. The couple fought. They struggled. MJ took up smoking to deal with the stress of his time as Spider-Man. They argued about his responsibilities. MJ left him due to the stress, and their reunion took a long time to accomplish. It wasn't that Peter was endlessly happy. But the flip side to that is that Peter's love life before his relationship with MJ was hardly the thing of misery. A friend of mine pointed out that one story that Peter was having a bad day, then came back to Gwen who kissed him and made him feel everything was alright. And people seem to have no objection to Peter going to Aunt May for comfort and support when he is feeling down, so there really isn't a problem with Peter finding comfort from his time as Spider-Man with another. Peter was still dealing with a lot of problems and dealing with them the same way he had before, it's just that the role went from May to MJ.

Peter's life didn't get instantly better. Nor was it all the worse from what it was before. The issue was that people built up a misconception about the series, and were trying to correct what they thought was a flaw when in reality any flaws that were there had already been addressed.

So that's really why Dan Slott or another writer has trepidation of bring them back together. It was really hard to break them up in the first place, and so they don't wanna put someone in an uncomfortable situation later on if they are together. If they get back together, its a long-term deal again which history has shown us is problematic to future writers.

I again disagree it was problematic for future writers. There were really no shortage of good writers who wanted to work with that relationship. Tom Defalco, JM Dematais, JMS, all wanted to work with the marriage and MJ, or had no problem with writing them as a couple. Yes, there were those who didn't like it and didn't want to use it. But that doesn't necessarily make them good creators, or the stories they want to tell entertaining. As BND showed, simply having a single Spidey doesn't make the stories inherently better or the characters more interesting. The stories didn't start to improve around Unscheduled Stop because the creators finally found their groove. The stories started to improve with that story because it was written by Mark Waid, one of the best writers in the industry.

I really doubt there would be a shortage of talented creators who would want to work on the book if the edict came down that Peter and MJ would be the principle couple, or the main goal would be to have the two of them reunited. I'd argue that enough time has passed and their presence in the comics and outside media has been dominant enough that their pairing would not be that jarring to upcoming writers. Their initial pairing didn't even do that, as they found a writer right away (JMD) who was inspired by their relationship to make it the heart of Kraven's Last Hunt.

[CrimsonEchidna]

are her parents alive? does she have siblings? cousins? Her family background has been scarcely delved into?

the relative immaturity regarding Peter's "secret keeping" is kind of a dealbreaker for me- especially at this point she should realize the gravity of what "spider-man" has to deal with on a constant basis. You either accept it or you don't, you can't scold Peter for not being full-disclosure with literally every crisis-update. Not everyone is a social-media exhibitionist.

Now I'm picturing Spider-Selfies.