Avengers/New Avengers: Time Runs Out (with spoilers)

[ShaokhaN]

Exactly.

The Illuminati have actually acted very stupidly which is exactly why they're in a mess.

Captain America isn't wrong in not going with the Illuminati's arrogance and egomaniacal tendencies.

That's not what Cap didn't go with. He was fine being with the Illuminati until they decided they should retain the bomb option, and they were right in retaining that option since otherwise the 616-universe would either be mapped or destroyed by now.

[Username taken]

That's not what Cap didn't go with. He was fine being with the Illuminati until they decided they should retain the bomb option, and they were right in retaining that option since otherwise the 616-universe would either be mapped or destroyed by now.

No doubt.

But there were still other options which should have been considered before erasing Captain America's mind.

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

No doubt.

But there were still other options which should have been considered before erasing Captain America's mind.

He wanted to remove the most immediate viable option completely and was willing to let the world die to serve his morality, a concept that was completely self indulgent and egotistical as well as utterly irrelevant in the bigger picture as Kang/Immortus/Iron Lad explained to him. Admittedly the other Illuminati with the exception of Namor and Strange chickened out when it came to killing a living, populated and unmapped world but obeying Cap would have meant the 2nd incursion would have been the last and wiped the 616 Earth out and the rest of the universe entirely.

[XPac]

Exactly.

The Illuminati have actually acted very stupidly which is exactly why they're in a mess.

Captain America isn't wrong in not going with the Illuminati's arrogance and egomaniacal tendencies.

My problem is that I just don't understand what the hell the Illuminati is doing. I still don't.

From making bombs they can't use to dealing with incursions with booty calls and boos, to stealing bombs to black mail people who didn't help them for whatever reason, everything they do just seems stupid and pointless. They just come off awefully stupid for a bunch of smart guys.

Doom just puts them to shame.

[TakoM]

My problem is that I just don't understand what the hell the Illuminati is doing. I still don't.

From making bombs they can't use to dealing with incursions with booty calls and boos, to stealing bombs to black mail people who didn't help them for whatever reason, everything they do just seems stupid and pointless. They just come off awefully stupid for a bunch of smart guys.

Doom just puts them to shame.

It's all part of Hickmans plan to remove them completely from Marvel History.

[dzub]

It's all part of Hickmans plan to remove them completely from Marvel History.

who's them?
illuminati, cabal and team doom?

plot twist: marvel's new reboot is a universe without reed,tony,t'challa,namor,thanos,blackagar,doom,dr strange

[TakoM]

who's them?
illuminati, cabal and team doom?

plot twist: marvel's new reboot is a universe without reed,tony,t'challa,namor,thanos,blackagar,doom,dr strange

No not really it only the group and its only a theory but it looks like it. In FF Dark Reign Hickman let a Reed Richards / Supreme Intelligence telling what he thinks about the Illuminati as an idea and he isn't very nice. I talked here about it :http://community.comicbookresources....out-Incursions

But I think FF-Dark Reign #4 page 10-11 is really the first mention of the whole "end " story and it reads like a blue print for the rest.

[Username taken]

He wanted to remove the most immediate viable option completely and was willing to let the world die to serve his morality, a concept that was completely self indulgent and egotistical as well as utterly irrelevant in the bigger picture as Kang/Immortus/Iron Lad explained to him. Admittedly the other Illuminati with the exception of Namor and Strange chickened out when it came to killing a living, populated and unmapped world but obeying Cap would have meant the 2nd incursion would have been the last and wiped the 616 Earth out and the rest of the universe entirely.

But at the end of the day, with the exception of Namor, the Illuminati ended being just like Captain America in putting their personal values above everything else. Namor on the other had teamed up with legit maniacs who kill for the thrill of it and had to go begging for help from someone else.

So much stupidity from the Illuminati members that it actually makes me wonder what the point of all this is.

Doom seems to be the only person who remembers that there are legit reality warpers on Earth and has an actual plan to get the source of the Incursions. Something that a lot of posters (myself included) suggested months ago.

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

My problem is that I just don't understand what the hell the Illuminati is doing. I still don't.

From making bombs they can't use to dealing with incursions with booty calls and boos, to stealing bombs to black mail people who didn't help them for whatever reason, everything they do just seems stupid and pointless. They just come off awefully stupid for a bunch of smart guys.

Doom just puts them to shame.

That's because Doom is a rational observer who deduces solutions logically and pragmatically, he is not as reactionary as he used to be because they last time he was impatient and foolish he burned his face up and displaced the blame to Reed Richards. Now he is in a space where he doesn't want to compete with Reed as much as just prove he is the better man completely, from getting his daughter to seek Doom's patronage, fighting the fight he knew they couldn't face against the mad Celestials, ruling a reality to the point of absolution and boredom... Doom lives to prove he is better than the normal person but he shows pity and charity to his lessers who may assume to be his betters at this point. The character has evolved past his false pride, now it is based in genuine and proven belief of his superiority over others and that he deserves better because he has proven time and time again he was not only born better, but is superior and actually desires the challenge of mortal parameters because it gives him something to work against since he has shown himself to be above all others.

I did love the line "Doom is no man's second choice" because not only does it show he doesn't respect Namor as a peer and monarch after his grovelling, it makes him sound like a jilted lover who knows he deserves better than to play second fiddle to people he considers his lessers. There's a quiet moment of heartbreak there before he more or less proclaims "I don't need you, I can handle my business by my damn self. Now get outta my house!"

[davew128]

Captain America isn't wrong in not going with the Illuminati's arrogance and egomaniacal tendencies.

Agreed. Where he IS wrong is in not looking for solutions to the incursion problem and focusing on the "Tony Problem". Cut off your nose to spite your face much Rogers?

[jackolover]

That's because Doom is a rational observer who deduces solutions logically and pragmatically, he is not as reactionary as he used to be because they last time he was impatient and foolish he burned his face up and displaced the blame to Reed Richards. Now he is in a space where he doesn't want to compete with Reed as much as just prove he is the better man completely, from getting his daughter to seek Doom's patronage, fighting the fight he knew they couldn't face against the mad Celestials, ruling a reality to the point of absolution and boredom... Doom lives to prove he is better than the normal person but he shows pity and charity to his lessers who may assume to be his betters at this point. The character has evolved past his false pride, now it is based in genuine and proven belief of his superiority over others and that he deserves better because he has proven time and time again he was not only born better, but is superior and actually desires the challenge of mortal parameters because it gives him something to work against since he has shown himself to be above all others.

I did love the line "Doom is no man's second choice" because not only does it show he doesn't respect Namor as a peer and monarch after his grovelling, it makes him sound like a jilted lover who knows he deserves better than to play second fiddle to people he considers his lessers. There's a quiet moment of heartbreak there before he more or less proclaims "I don't need you, I can handle my business by my damn self. Now get outta my house!"

It's interesting that Marvel have inverted two villains in Loki and Doom already, (possibly Magneto too), before AXIS has even started. They even had Original Sins revealed (Arno Stark, Marcus Johnson, Peter Parker's sister), before the event as well. It seems seeds have been sown for Events months before they are relevant, and not just when the Events come out.

[Juggernaut Punch]

No doubt.

But there were still other options which should have been considered before erasing Captain America's mind.

Like what? They argued for hours, and Steve wouldn't let the bomb thing go. He didn't even want to consider it. They were at an impasse, and the Illuminati didn't have time to argue. Literally everyone but Steve voted to make bombs just in case, and that's how the Illuminati has always decided things, but Steve wouldn't have it. Mindwiping him and giving him the boot was the only option.

[Username taken]

Like what? They argued for hours, and Steve wouldn't let the bomb thing go. He didn't even want to consider it. They were at an impasse, and the Illuminati didn't have time to argue. Literally everyone but Steve voted to make bombs just in case, and that's how the Illuminati has always decided things, but Steve wouldn't have it. Mindwiping him and giving him the boot was the only option.

Perhaps the Illuminati should have thought things through more carefully. At the end of the day, with the exception of Namor, they all acted exactly like Captain America.

Yes, they made the bombs but they come out looking far worse than the Captain because when they were faced with the grim option, they simply decided to lie down and die. No doubt, Captain America would never have supported using bombs to kill billions but he might not have been so arrogant as to completely ignore soliciting outside help with the situation.

When it's all said and done and knowing what we know now, there was a common ground to be had with Captain America but both the Illuminati and Steve were too stubborn to consider that.

[ShaokhaN]

Perhaps the Illuminati should have thought things through more carefully. At the end of the day, with the exception of Namor, they all acted exactly like Captain America.

Yes, they made the bombs but they come out looking far worse than the Captain because when they were faced with the grim option, they simply decided to lie down and die. No doubt, Captain America would never have supported using bombs to kill billions but he might not have been so arrogant as to completely ignore soliciting outside help with the situation.

When it's all said and done and knowing what we know now, there was a common ground to be had with Captain America but both the Illuminati and Steve were too stubborn to consider that.

They still used a bomb in NA #6, though. Without that bomb, Earth-616 would have been mapped. I'm not sure what the common ground with Cap would have been - they wanted to build bombs as a last resort (the correct decision), and he did not.

[MindofShadow]

To be fair, Doom does have the luxury of being able to figure this thing out while others deal with the Incursions. He doesn't have to worry about "oh **** here it comes again" like the Illuminati did.

Did the Illuminati look at every option? Of course not. But they did use the bridge trying to figure out how other Earths stopped them. And all it told them was that it was hopeless (and Swan might be crazy).

Doom on the other hand kind of lucked into the Mapmaker stuff and has had time to simply devote all resources into it. Illuminati had nothing but a lunatic (Swan) messing with their heads (they really should have foudn a telepath with her...)