Avengers/New Avengers: Time Runs Out (with spoilers)

[Mahes]

If the Illuminati had that piece of the planet as well I think they could have done the same thing Doom did.

Really, Black Swan having them build the bridge just made the Illuminati crack faster. All they saw was death, destruction, and the futility of it all. Was a great move on her part.

[Juggernaut Punch]

Perhaps the Illuminati should have thought things through more carefully. At the end of the day, with the exception of Namor, they all acted exactly like Captain America.

Yes, they made the bombs but they come out looking far worse than the Captain because when they were faced with the grim option, they simply decided to lie down and die. No doubt, Captain America would never have supported using bombs to kill billions but he might not have been so arrogant as to completely ignore soliciting outside help with the situation.

When it's all said and done and knowing what we know now, there was a common ground to be had with Captain America but both the Illuminati and Steve were too stubborn to consider that.

Resigning themselves to their fates and fucking their wives while two universes died was the wrong move though. The Illuminati were right to expel Cap and build the bombs. The fact that they ended up agreeing with Cap in the end and resigning themselves to their fates doesn't mean that the decision to exclude Cap was wrong, it means that the Illuminati are pathetic.

At the end of the day, the fact still stands that the bombs were needed. Earth-616 would have been destroyed a dozen times over now if not for the bombs. There was no middle ground between "bombs in case we need them" and "no bombs whatsoever" that could have resulted in survival.

[XPac]

Like what? They argued for hours, and Steve wouldn't let the bomb thing go. He didn't even want to consider it. They were at an impasse, and the Illuminati didn't have time to argue. Literally everyone but Steve voted to make bombs just in case, and that's how the Illuminati has always decided things, but Steve wouldn't have it. Mindwiping him and giving him the boot was the only option.

Really, I suppose they could have just LIED to Steve, told him the gems stopped the incursions entirely , and dealt with all of this behind his back. That's still morally questionable but in my mind at least a lot less messy.

Of they could have worked with Steve to try and stop the incursions, but secretly build the bombs behind his back just to have them just in case.

But the issue is sort of moot since the Kangs already said that Steve working with the Illuminati doesn't work. Everything they try ended up failing. I think SOMEHOW the Avengers and Illuminati fighting will end up leading to a better outcome. Not exactly sure why... but that's where this is likely heading. Perhaps them fighting creates some opening for Doom that he wouldn't have had had Steve and the Illuminati not been fighting. Doom didn't solve the incursions the other timeline where Steve and the Illuminati were working together. Somehow things need to turn out differently this time.

[XPac]

If the Illuminati had that piece of the planet as well I think they could have done the same thing Doom did.

Really, Black Swan having them build the bridge just made the Illuminati crack faster. All they saw was death, destruction, and the futility of it all. Was a great move on her part.

The bridge COULD have been a lot more useful than it actually was though. Doom was able to use Map Maker left overs to make actual headway in all of this. Surely the Illuminati could have gotten left overs and done the same thing in theory. But instead they just sat and watched like it was Net Flicks or something.

Everything the Illuminati did during this whole story start to finish came off as completely half @$$ed and incompetent to me. Again, Doom just puts their collective efforts to shame.

[Iron Maiden]

The bridge COULD have been a lot more useful than it actually was though. Doom was able to use Map Maker left overs to make actual headway in all of this. Surely the Illuminati could have gotten left overs and done the same thing in theory. But instead they just sat and watched like it was Net Flicks or something.

Everything the Illuminati did during this whole story start to finish came off as completely half @$$ed and incompetent to me. Again, Doom just puts their collective efforts to shame.

Didn't Black Swan tell them how the Map Makers do their task? You'd think they would have conducted their own study. Maybe Doom benefits from having found things out on his own and unfiltered by Black Swan.

[XPac]

Didn't Black Swan tell them how the Map Makers do their task? You'd think they would have conducted their own study. Maybe Doom benefits from having found things out on his own without and unfiltered by Black Swan.

Yeah, Black Swan did help out a bit. She rarely gave straight answers, but she did give intel. Problem is they never really used any of the information they gave her.

She flat out told them for example that evacuation the planet was a viable (albeit cowardly from her perspective) means of dealing with the incursions. And the Illuminati just kind of ignored it and moved on. WTF?

[PlanetaryDevastation]

Didn't Black Swan tell them how the Map Makers do their task? You'd think they would have conducted their own study. Maybe Doom benefits from having found things out on his own without and unfiltered by Black Swan.

They really should have. They knew they couldn't trust her but they didn't really do any independent research. Their main flaw was they only had like seven members and not nearly enough time. So they end up putting all their eggs in the bomb basket and pretty much hoping that another Earth would have an answer.

[TakoM]

Yeah, Black Swan did help out a bit. She rarely gave straight answers, but she did give intel. Problem is they never really used any of the information they gave her.

She flat out told them for example that evacuation the planet was a viable (albeit cowardly from her perspective) means of dealing with the incursions. And the Illuminati just kind of ignored it and moved on. WTF?

It not so easy the main problem first would be the Illuminati would had inform the world why but their main mantra is we don't leak information because we know best. So it wasn't an option for them.(and its not an easy task)

The building of the bomb gave the world more time through the fact that the Cabal using them now but at the end the bombs are no solution because the universe ends on its own.
I said it earlier we can't expect any solution from the Illuminati they were designed by Hickman to fail and in some way the bad guys.

Like Hickman basically says the problem with the Illuminati is they don't discuss problems with others and they don't include opinions from others.

The problem(from me perspective) is with that all their solution aren't any near of any consensus, so they are highly anti-democratic and works like dictators which will automatically end up in a confrontation with other superheroes and on top of that the "solution" you have are properly not the best their is because you didn't include the knowledge of others.(and it will be totally one sided).

Which brings me to Cap that he broke the silent of the Illumnati which really open the book. I don't know why every one blame him for doing something bad what he did will properly rescue everything at the end of the story because of his silence breaking Doom know about the incursions now.

The funny thing before the Illuminati were created for CW Reed teamed-up with Doom frequently to rescue the world from cosmic threats and now Doom works with the Thinker to do it without him.

[neohuey89]

It not so easy the main problem first would be the Illuminati would had inform the world why but their main mantra is we don't leak information because we know best. So it wasn't an option for them.(and its not an easy task)

The building of the bomb gave the world more time through the fact that the Cabal using them now but at the end the bombs are no solution because the universe ends on its own.
I said it earlier we can't expect any solution from the Illuminati they were designed by Hickman to fail and in some way the bad guys.

Like Hickman basically says the problem with the Illuminati is they don't discuss problems with others and they don't include opinions from others.

The problem(from me perspective) is with that all their solution aren't any near of any consensus, so they are highly anti-democratic and works like dictators which will automatically end up in a confrontation with other superheroes and on top of that the "solution" you have are properly not the best their is because you didn't include the knowledge of others.(and it will be totally one sided).

Which brings me to Cap that he broke the silent of the Illumnati which really open the book. I don't know why every one blame him for doing something bad what he did will properly rescue everything at the end of the story because of his silence breaking Doom know about the incursions now.

The funny thing before the Illuminati were created for CW Reed teamed-up with Doom frequently to rescue the world from cosmic threats and now Doom works with the Thinker to do it without him.

I think the Illuminati were wrong for keeping it entirely to themselves because the weren't able to solve the issue by themselves, but I'm pretty sure that Cap announcing it to everyone will have negative effects as well. Cap had 20 people under his command and it already looks like that team has been split up. I doubt Axis and the stories of their solos are the only reasons for these changes. The "sacrifice" of Wakanda and many other issues may be a result of everyone being in the know of what happened.

[Orbus]

Yeah, Black Swan did help out a bit. She rarely gave straight answers, but she did give intel. Problem is they never really used any of the information they gave her.

She flat out told them for example that evacuation the planet was a viable (albeit cowardly from her perspective) means of dealing with the incursions. And the Illuminati just kind of ignored it and moved on. WTF?

I wouldn't say flat out ignored her. Beast at very least seemed intrigued and I wouldn't be surprised to find out he had investigated it.

I don't think you can really fault the Iluminati for that option not being on the top of the pile when you consider it would cause mass panic skepticism among the populace.

[TakoM]

I think the Illuminati were wrong for keeping it entirely to themselves because the weren't able to solve the issue by themselves, but I'm pretty sure that Cap announcing it to everyone will have negative effects as well. Cap had 20 people under his command and it already looks like that team has been split up. I doubt Axis and the stories of their solos are the only reasons for these changes. The "sacrifice" of Wakanda and many other issues may be a result of everyone being in the know of what happened.

Whether there will be bad long(for sometime after the stoy) term consequence or not depend own Hickman will end the story.When some reality warper clap his hand and the universe is fixed and all other consequences stay I wouldn't say it would matter for me I will stop reading Marvel Comic because they screw to much the readers by dissembling the MU the x times after the authors taken years to fix it after CW, the other option is it never happened.

When I see how things falling in line in the story of the MU I would properly travel back in time and stop the Illuminati from forming. It's depend also what the reason are for the incursions when I see AvX and/or AoU and say okay that is the reasons than you have a good chance the "end of everything" arc will stop by making the Illuminati group never exist because they created a lot of mistrust which was the steam which those story worked. (okay AoU not so but lets say Logan lost the thrust after AvX from the others...so Susan went alone to Henry Pym) .

Hm what would change CW wouldn't happened and we had today a more consensus concept for superheroes how they are watched over, Axis would still happening, AvX Logan would get kicked out of the team, Dark Reign could had happen but with a entire different corners, AoU Logan didn't kill Henry Pym because he wouldn't be there.

[megaharrison]

Welp, Hickman keeps writing the most interesting and intriguing marvel book right now. We have 3 different factions now, I am most interested in Doom's gang of F4 villains.

[Mark]

At this point Hickman has made the heroes so dark, divided and useless I think I'd be happy if the entire marvel multiverse just did cease to exist and they started from scratch. I don't see anyone worth saving and if this sells they'll have to make the next event even darker.

[neohuey89]

Whether there will be bad long(for sometime after the stoy) term consequence or not depend own Hickman will end the story.When some reality warper clap his hand and the universe is fixed and all other consequences stay I wouldn't say it would matter for me I will stop reading Marvel Comic because they screw to much the readers by dissembling the MU the x times after the authors taken years to fix it after CW, the other option is it never happened.

When I see how things falling in line in the story of the MU I would properly travel back in time and stop the Illuminati from forming. It's depend also what the reason are for the incursions when I see AvX and/or AoU and say okay that is the reasons than you have a good chance the "end of everything" arc will stop by making the Illuminati group never exist because they created a lot of mistrust which was the steam which those story worked. (okay AoU not so but lets say Logan lost the thrust after AvX from the others...so Susan went alone to Henry Pym) .

Hm what would change CW wouldn't happened and we had today a more consensus concept for superheroes how they are watched over, Axis would still happening, AvX Logan would get kicked out of the team, Dark Reign could had happen but with a entire different corners, AoU Logan didn't kill Henry Pym because he wouldn't be there.

I'm sure there will be time travel involved in some shape or form since it's been referenced heavily in the story, but I don't think they would just reboot or undo everything that's happened. I think that would be very lame, but I have no idea how this is going to play out.

[Hariel0079]

Like what? They argued for hours, and Steve wouldn't let the bomb thing go. He didn't even want to consider it. They were at an impasse, and the Illuminati didn't have time to argue. Literally everyone but Steve voted to make bombs just in case, and that's how the Illuminati has always decided things, but Steve wouldn't have it. Mindwiping him and giving him the boot was the only option.

Mindwiping = egotistical/arrogance

Which is the over all portrayal Hickmans showing and why this issue of NA was so good!