Avengers/New Avengers: Time Runs Out (with spoilers)

[XPac]

Well they all thought they were willing to use the bombs right up until the very moment it came down to pressing the button. I don't think any of them expected their conscious to get the better of them.

Yeah, but don't you think this is a conversation they should have HAD before jumping into an incursion with the bomb?

Aside from Namor and T'Challa (and Black Bolt I guess since he never got a chance to even say), pretty much all of them said NO pretty darn decisively. They didn't even pause to think out it. They just said no. Which I guess isn't that surprising given they were even hesistant to blow up the dead world during the Latverian incursion.

The whole thing just seemed poorly planned and executed. I guess having Namor was a safe guard to ensure things would happen but still.... they ended up looking really really bad there IMO.

[XPac]

You know whats really weird about this, Hank Pym as Yellowjacket again. What I mean by this is that since this story arc is an 8 month time jump this is supposed to be around April or May 2015, but the Ant-man movie where Pym is an old professor and Yellowjacket is going to be the villain is out in July, two months after this is happening and around the time of the Times Run Out event, you think someone at Marvel would have seen something about this.

It is kind of weird that he'd do that. It's almost him wanting to come off more villainous... though I suppose you can argue from a practical sense Yellow Jacket is his most powerful identity.

He even skipped Goliath (as he usually does the costumes in order). Though we're 8 months ahead so perhaps he suited up as Goliath somewhere in between.

[jackolover]

Whether there will be bad long(for sometime after the stoy) term consequence or not depend own Hickman will end the story.When some reality warper clap his hand and the universe is fixed and all other consequences stay I wouldn't say it would matter for me I will stop reading Marvel Comic because they screw to much the readers by dissembling the MU the x times after the authors taken years to fix it after CW, the other option is it never happened.

When I see how things falling in line in the story of the MU I would properly travel back in time and stop the Illuminati from forming. It's depend also what the reason are for the incursions when I see AvX and/or AoU and say okay that is the reasons than you have a good chance the "end of everything" arc will stop by making the Illuminati group never exist because they created a lot of mistrust which was the steam which those story worked. (okay AoU not so but lets say Logan lost the thrust after AvX from the others...so Susan went alone to Henry Pym) .

Hm what would change CW wouldn't happened and we had today a more consensus concept for superheroes how they are watched over, Axis would still happening, AvX Logan would get kicked out of the team, Dark Reign could had happen but with a entire different corners, AoU Logan didn't kill Henry Pym because he wouldn't be there.

If the Illuminati never existed, there would be no World War Hulk, and no Secret Invasion to overturn Tony Stark after CW. Avengers Initiative would have survived, and no Siege would have taken place. Cap would have returned and negotiated some sort of settlement with Tony, maybe. Thor would still be mad at Tony, but if Cap was back in the Avengers, Thor would join. There would be no need for Utopia, so X-Men would stay in San Fran, and Second Coming would play out as usual. There would be no World War Hulks, or Doom War because Red Hulk doesn't exist, and Doom never escaped from prison in DR. Wakanda would still have all it's Vibranium. Tony would be DoS and the Avengers would be controlled by SHIELD. Until Fear itself, when all bets are off and Stark would still have to beg Odin to let him make weapons to confront The Serpent, who kills Thor and there is still Shattered Heroes etc from then on, which takes place just as normal.

[DurararaFTW]

If the Illuminati never existed, there would be no World War Hulk, and no Secret Invasion to overturn Tony Stark after CW. Avengers Initiative would have survived, and no Siege would have taken place. Cap would have returned and negotiated some sort of settlement with Tony, maybe. Thor would still be mad at Tony, but if Cap was back in the Avengers, Thor would join. There would be no World War Hulks, or Doom War because Red Hulk doesn't exist, and Doom never escaped from prison in DR. Wakanda would still have all it's Vibranium. Tony would be DoS and the Avengers would be controlled by SHIELD, until Fear itself, when all bets are off and Stark would still have to beg Odin to let him make weapons to confront The Serpent, who kills Thor and there is still Shattered Heroes etc from then on, which takes place just as normal.

Presuming no one does anything with the gems that won't be collected anymore.

[jackolover]

At this point Hickman has made the heroes so dark, divided and useless I think I'd be happy if the entire marvel multiverse just did cease to exist and they started from scratch. I don't see anyone worth saving and if this sells they'll have to make the next event even darker.

I'm sure there will be time travel involved in some shape or form since it's been referenced heavily in the story, but I don't think they would just reboot or undo everything that's happened. I think that would be very lame, but I have no idea how this is going to play out.

The Avengers book was about the Time Gem coming back. Hickman spent the whole OS arc on that. A lot of sequences in those jumps were about fixing something further in the future, and because Cap didn't do that, something has changed. The Kangs are upset. And as we've noticed the Kangs and Doom are connected through the Egyption Kang and Doom being the same person. Now Doom is getting involved with the Incursions to find out who was responsible for starting this thing off. It's more than likely Doom discovers something dark involving the Kangs and he is in the position to benefit from it. After all, Doom had a time platform in this generation. It's likely everything stems from Doom, including the Kangs and time travel in general. If Age of Ultron breaking Space-Time was because of Time Travel, and the Incursion were a result of the same thing, it was all Dooms fault for inventing the time platform in the first place. It would explain why creatures in our universe were never using time travel, except humans. A loop would be formed from the Doom time platform, to the past, to the future with the Kangs, and then the Age of Ultron, to the Incursions. It would be all Dooms fault. Someone would have to go back in time to stop Doom making the time platform, or, kill Victor.

[Another scenario would be young teenager, Victor Von Doom, was the one who invented the Time platform in 1949. Victor went to the future and studied future technology. He came to the 21st Century to form the Young Avengers, as the Iron Lad. When that didn't work, he jumped to the 20th Century, where he enrolled in University in the US and burnt his face. Young Victor went back in time to before he burnt his face, went to the future and lived his life as the older Kang, and to the past, to live as the Egyptian Kang, while still continuing his Doctor Doom persona as well. This is all possible because Iron Lad was able to meet Older Kang as well].

If the Incursions suddenly stopped, at the time the Cabal were on Earth, they wouldn't be needed anymore. The heroes could defeat the Cabal and take back the Earth. There would be no more time travel and things could go back the way they were, except the Illuminati would still be disbanded, Wakanda, Attalan, and Atlantis would still be destroyed, and SHIELD would still control the Avengers.

[jackolover]

Presuming no one does anything with the gems that won't be collected anymore.

Once Age of Ultron was played out, and the Incursions started, there would be no way to stop the first Incursion because the Infinity Gauntlet would only have 3 or 4 gems that Reed Richards has, when Black Panther asks the smartest men in the world to convene - Reed, Tony, Pym, Doom, Banner and Cho. Cap wouldn't be invited, maybe? Black Swan could hurry the manufacture of the planet buster bombs, so that could take care of it, without needing the gems. And yes, hopefully nobody uses the gems in between.

[TakoM]

If the Illuminati never existed, there would be no World War Hulk, and no Secret Invasion to overturn Tony Stark after CW. Avengers Initiative would have survived, and no Siege would have taken place. Cap would have returned and negotiated some sort of settlement with Tony, maybe. Thor would still be mad at Tony, but if Cap was back in the Avengers, Thor would join. There would be no need for Utopia, so X-Men would stay in San Fran, and Second Coming would play out as usual. There would be no World War Hulks, or Doom War because Red Hulk doesn't exist, and Doom never escaped from prison in DR. Wakanda would still have all it's Vibranium. Tony would be DoS and the Avengers would be controlled by SHIELD. Until Fear itself, when all bets are off and Stark would still have to beg Odin to let him make weapons to confront The Serpent, who kills Thor and there is still Shattered Heroes etc from then on, which takes place just as normal.

I don't see how Red Hulk or Doom War are tied to Iluminati but most of the things will still happen, e.g. Secret War was started by the skrulls even without the genetic martial from the Illuminati they would still try to conquer earth and for Utopia Cyclops had multiple reasons to built.

The Avenger Initiative I don't think would exit in the previous form so far Cap and Tony talked previously about it, so they would no forcing of heroes into work for it and maybe some rare exception for registration for types like Spider-Man. The only were it get wacky is for Spider-Man(his marriage undone and global memory wipe after CW) and the split up of the X-Men after AvX I don't see are real reason why that could/should happened.

[jackolover]

I think one of the most important things Hickman has done for the Avengers franchise that nobody really talks about is adding a legacy element to the book. This really has been a primarily DC concept for a long time (excluding the X-books) and you could see that with the FF and now with this peripheral Avengers rank. I really like how there are now within the Avengers a group of heroes too old for teen books but young enough freshen up the zeitgeist and take on real responsibility. Hoping that Sam, Bobby, Izzy, Eden and Starbrand (if he doesn't die) stick around the Avengers mainline after Hickman's departure because they are evolving into great characters who need more spotlight.

Why are the Avengers Children around in the Secret Avengers, if not for the reason they take over as the legacy Avengers? That would eliminate the old Avengers and replace them with fresh faces. They killed Kang in the future already and seem very capable.

[jackolover]

I don't see how Red Hulk or Doom War are tied to Iluminati but most of the things will still happen, e.g. Secret War was started by the skrulls even without the genetic martial from the Illuminati they would still try to conquer earth and for Utopia Cyclops had multiple reasons to built.

The Avenger Initiative I don't think would exit in the previous form so far Cap and Tony talked previously about it, so they would no forcing of heroes into work for it and maybe some rare exception for registration for types like Spider-Man. The only were it get wacky is for Spider-Man(his marriage undone and global memory wipe after CW) and the split up of the X-Men after AvX I don't see are real reason why that could/should happened.

I'm suggesting Civil War would still occur, because I couldn't see Cap and Tony agreeing as we saw them discussing it on several occasions during the event, so Avengers Initiative would still have occurred, and Cap getting shot.

As for the Secret Invasion, if the Illuminati never came to the Skrull Homeworld and got captured, there would be no reason for the Skrulls to feel confident enough to attack Earth again, so no Skrull Invasion and No Dark Reign. No DR, means no Cabal, no Doom released from prison, no Doom War.

If there was no Illuminati, Tony would not have got the Illuminati to send the Hulk into space, because Reed would not have told of the idea Ben had, so Hulk could not return for WWH, so no Red Hulk.

[DurararaFTW]

I'm suggesting Civil War would still occur, because I couldn't see Cap and Tony agreeing as we saw them discussing it on several occasions during the event, so Avengers Initiative would still have occurred, and Cap getting shot.

As for the Secret Invasion, if the Illuminati never came to the Skrull Homeworld and got captured, there would be no reason for the Skrulls to feel confident enough to attack Earth again, so no Skrull Invasion and No Dark Reign. No DR, means no Cabal, no Doom released from prison, no Doom War.

If there was no Illuminati, Tony would not have got the Illuminati to send the Hulk into space, because Reed would not have told of the idea Ben had, so Hulk could not return for WWH, so no Red Hulk.

No Illuminati means no Skrull invasion, means no Skrull Hank Pym working on Tony's side, and thus potentially a quite different cyborg Thor.

[jackolover]

No Illuminati means no Skrull invasion, means no Skrull Hank Pym working on Tony's side, and thus potentially a quite different cyborg Thor.

Maybe? I think the Skrull Pym was supposed to be the same as Pym, so the real Pym could have made the same cyborg Thor.

[TakoM]

I'm suggesting Civil War would still occur, because I couldn't see Cap and Tony agreeing as we saw them discussing it on several occasions during the event, so Avengers Initiative would still have occurred, and Cap getting shot.

As for the Secret Invasion, if the Illuminati never came to the Skrull Homeworld and got captured, there would be no reason for the Skrulls to feel confident enough to attack Earth again, so no Skrull Invasion and No Dark Reign. No DR, means no Cabal, no Doom released from prison, no Doom War.

If there was no Illuminati, Tony would not have got the Illuminati to send the Hulk into space, because Reed would not have told of the idea Ben had, so Hulk could not return for WWH, so no Red Hulk.

I think without the Iluminati behind his back Tony wouldn't had been so confident in CW and before that. About the skulls the X-Men of the future were on that same day on the skull home-planet and they saw the skulls already training for an invasion of earth.(Yeah when you do retcons you can screw up)

The Illuminati didn't start it but gave them a well boost for the future.

If you think about it the whole registration act is a joke as idea the whole thing is something politician would think of and which solve nothing in real.

About the incursion I think you could also aim a point of time which isn't so far in the past Hickman hasn't much options to solve it at the end beside time-travel, reality warp, or leave it in ruins.

[DurararaFTW]

I think without the Iluminati behind his back Tony wouldn't had been so confident in CW and before that. About the skulls the X-Men of the future were on that same day on the skull home-planet and they saw the skulls already training for an invasion of earth.(Yeah when you do retcons you can screw up)

He didn't really have the Iluminati behind his back. Doctor Strange and Namor were straight up against it and Xavier and Black Bolt weren't exactly suppotive.

[jackolover]

I think without the Iluminati behind his back Tony wouldn't had been so confident in CW and before that. About the skulls the X-Men of the future were on that same day on the skull home-planet and they saw the skulls already training for an invasion of earth.(Yeah when you do retcons you can screw up)

The Illuminati didn't start it but gave them a well boost for the future.

If you think about it the whole registration act is a joke as idea the whole thing is something politician would think of and which solve nothing in real.

About the incursion I think you could also aim a point of time which isn't so far in the past Hickman hasn't much options to solve it at the end beside time-travel, reality warp, or leave it in ruins.

I didn't know about the X-Men being on Skrull world at the same time. I still would have thought a Skrull invasion without the Illuminati DNA was going to be a short lived Invasion, without disguising themselves so they couldn't be detected, the Skrulls would have never got so far into the Initiative.

And Tony never needed Illuminati support. Mark Millar already had Tony, Pym and Reed as a scientific team working on projects back in Marvel Knights Spiderman, so they were already a team by CW.

Yes, I agree on the time travel option to end the Incursions.

[jackolover]

This is all about Stark and Hawkeye. The time jump in Avengers of 8 months is supposed to give us a clue on why 48 years Future Hawkeye punched Stark 3 times. There is something Stark could do differently so people don't die, but he does them anyway. What we are really looking for now in Avengers #36 onwards is the thing Stark did "that turned everything to dust the first time". I want to see Hawkeye from now on to see what he knows about this.

It seems, from the enigmatic statements of 48 years future Hawkeye, that this occurred more than one time, which means what I think happens in Time Runs Out, is that time goes haywire and time happens over and over again. That's why future Hawkeye says "the first time".