Avengers/New Avengers: Time Runs Out (with spoilers)

[dragonmp93]

When did SW3 come out (hadn't heard of that one)?

FF 318 319 were titled secret wars 3.

Well, there is also the Secret War written by Bendis in 2004.

[Iron Maiden]

You are correct. They are written by Steve Englehart. Those issues confirm a link between the Molecule Man and the Beyonder. So in TRO doom says the Molecule man's energy signature is the same as the world destroyed by the map makers. The map makers were recently implied to work for the Ivory Kings. In my opinion this makes the Ivory Kings the Beyonders. Also the fact that the map makers may be making a map for a battle world which is what the Beyonder did. Now in FF 400 it was said that if the earth was destroyed the Galactus seed would be born and everything would end sooner. This is what must have happened in one of the other universes and caused the seed to birth Rabum Alal. Now the reason Rabum and the Ivory Kings are ar war is that Rabum wants everything to die but the ivory kings are using the incursions to create battle world. Also that earth that was destroyed and caused Rabum to live....I think that is the earth that Sir Isaac Newton and The Shield battled it out on in Shield number 4. Everyone please let me know what you think of my theory....:-)

Well, Hickman did say he bought that CD ROM that had all of the Fantastic Four issues up until the end of Waid's run to prepare for taking over the Fantastic Four so there is no doubt that he's read the issues you mention. I have to go back to the one about the Galactus seed, which was during DeFalco's run. In a later FF manual, the Molecule Man was shown to be even more powerful than the Beyonder. IIRC both of them broke free because if you recall in Englehart's story it was said they were incomplete halves of a Cosmic Cube and they had merged at the end of #320.

I have to wonder if Hickman is not using the assertion that Bendis did where he said the Beyonder was a mutant Inhuman. In Englehart's story, Doom lead Ben's FF into the universe of the Beyonders. So I assume that means there is more than one.

[davew128]

Random thought... but when I was a kid I always thought the original New Universe was essentially the universe the Beyonder created after he died at the end of Secret Wars 2.

I thought the same way, with the White Event looking just like the first appearance of the Beyonder, and it may even have been Jim Shooter's intention. Clearly whatever was intended wasn't the result since even variations of the New Universe have appeared as simply alternate realities.

[vitruvian]

About the exiles and time passing thing that was brought up, exiles actually makes a pretty big plot point of time NOT passing consistently. This is how a couple decades can pass for sabretooth when he's watching the mutants kids they rescue in a reality while a MUCH shorter time passes for the rest of the team before they are reunited. There's also an earlier story where the team is separated and while morph and Sasquatch spends a couple hours in one reality, mimic spends I think 3 years in another. Combined with Earth X's supporting evidence, its clear that differing realities experience time at different rates.
As for the 616/2099 connection, one of two things is happening. Either Miguel just isn't aware of the whole branching realities thru time travel aspect, or the rules have simply changed since Age of Ultron. There's plenty of evidence to show the rules change, so I'd wager that's what is what's going on.

On a tangential note, I'm very sad that the exiles have not made any appearance thus far

Thanks for the Exiles information, that does indeed support the idea that time travel in one reality may not equal time travel (or an equal amount of it, anyway) in another.

As for Miguel and 2099, though.... the problem is that it's not just that he's worried about changing his timeline by virtue of his actions in the present, but that it's actually been shown to start happening, with Back to the Future-like fade out effects on Tiberius Stone in the future until Miguel corrected course in the present. It's therefore confirmed that the present of the 616 universe is still causally linked with the timeline of Spider-Man 2099, which would not be the case if it were an entirely different reality. I really don't think there's any conclusion other than it still being at least a possible, if not the future of the 616 universe.

[vitruvian]

You are correct. They are written by Steve Englehart. Those issues confirm a link between the Molecule Man and the Beyonder. So in TRO doom says the Molecule man's energy signature is the same as the world destroyed by the map makers. The map makers were recently implied to work for the Ivory Kings. In my opinion this makes the Ivory Kings the Beyonders. Also the fact that the map makers may be making a map for a battle world which is what the Beyonder did. Now in FF 400 it was said that if the earth was destroyed the Galactus seed would be born and everything would end sooner. This is what must have happened in one of the other universes and caused the seed to birth Rabum Alal. Now the reason Rabum and the Ivory Kings are ar war is that Rabum wants everything to die but the ivory kings are using the incursions to create battle world. Also that earth that was destroyed and caused Rabum to live....I think that is the earth that Sir Isaac Newton and The Shield battled it out on in Shield number 4. Everyone please let me know what you think of my theory....:-)

If you're correct about the Galactus Seed still being in play, wouldn't that mean that every other universe that has had its Earth destroyed, not just the original one that birthed Rabum Alal, would also have the Galactus Seed be born and become the Great Destroyer, so that now there is a GD for each and every universe that was 'saved' by blowing up its Earth, whether or not it was evacuated? Shouldn't there be a whole big group of Great Destroyers by now? And a whole lot of universes that turn out to be doomed to an early death anyway, because they're getting eaten by this successor to Galactus?

Or are there a bunch of universes where the Galactus Seed was never brought to Earth proper from the roots of the World Tree and this just isn't a factor?

And isn't the Galactus Seed also supposed to be the seed for the next universe as a whole, so that if the Great Destroyer succeeds in ending everything early, that also means immediately thereafter the universe gets a new start?

[Iron Maiden]

Hickman has been watching all your comments and how you all are going back and forth with this incursion genocide

Attachment 15966

Heh....the Usual Suspects has been playing on the Encore channel this week.

[fin5]

If Hickmen has been watching all the comments here.I would love if he can join in and coment on this topic

[John Ossie]

Would be interesting, but only if he was able to give teases without giving anything away.

[fin5]

that would be fine with me

[Darkmythology]

Thanks for the Exiles information, that does indeed support the idea that time travel in one reality may not equal time travel (or an equal amount of it, anyway) in another.

As for Miguel and 2099, though.... the problem is that it's not just that he's worried about changing his timeline by virtue of his actions in the present, but that it's actually been shown to start happening, with Back to the Future-like fade out effects on Tiberius Stone in the future until Miguel corrected course in the present. It's therefore confirmed that the present of the 616 universe is still causally linked with the timeline of Spider-Man 2099, which would not be the case if it were an entirely different reality. I really don't think there's any conclusion other than it still being at least a possible, if not the future of the 616 universe.

I think time being "broken" is behind that. Age of Ultron messed stuff up pretty badly. Rifts in realities, Wolvie's time travel affecting the 616 at a later point. The time where young cyclops got hurt and old cyclops disappeared for a moment seems to imply that the time stream is now much less malleable than it used to be. I'd say the /likeliest/ scenario, based purely on the simplest explanation that would explain most of this, is that the AoU changed how backward time travel affects faster offshoot realities. 2099 is then very likely a direct offshoot, parallel future of the 616, meaning that while previous changes would have created another offshoot reality, changes are now directly affecting the 2099 reality. Is essence, this could mean that possibly the universe it not only actively shrinking as realities are destroyed, it is actively /preventing/ any new realities from being created. The alteration of parallel futures would thus be the the universe's way of preventing more damage from occurring thru paradox.
My brain hurts.

[Habis]

You are correct. They are written by Steve Englehart. Those issues confirm a link between the Molecule Man and the Beyonder. So in TRO doom says the Molecule man's energy signature is the same as the world destroyed by the map makers. The map makers were recently implied to work for the Ivory Kings. In my opinion this makes the Ivory Kings the Beyonders. Also the fact that the map makers may be making a map for a battle world which is what the Beyonder did. Now in FF 400 it was said that if the earth was destroyed the Galactus seed would be born and everything would end sooner. This is what must have happened in one of the other universes and caused the seed to birth Rabum Alal. Now the reason Rabum and the Ivory Kings are ar war is that Rabum wants everything to die but the ivory kings are using the incursions to create battle world. Also that earth that was destroyed and caused Rabum to live....I think that is the earth that Sir Isaac Newton and The Shield battled it out on in Shield number 4. Everyone please let me know what you think of my theory....:-)

The first Super-Adaptoid was made with the help of a Cosmic Cube, and always had a tiny bit of its power inside. The Mapmakers probably have an energy signature similar to Molecule Man's (who was empowered by the Cosmic Cube too) because they are duplicates of the first one (which was able to create lesser Super-Adaptoids).

[exiled]

Well, Hickman did say he bought that CD ROM that had all of the Fantastic Four issues up until the end of Waid's run to prepare for taking over the Fantastic Four so there is no doubt that he's read the issues you mention. I have to go back to the one about the Galactus seed, which was during DeFalco's run. In a later FF manual, the Molecule Man was shown to be even more powerful than the Beyonder. IIRC both of them broke free because if you recall in Englehart's story it was said they were incomplete halves of a Cosmic Cube and they had merged at the end of #320.

I have to wonder if Hickman is not using the assertion that Bendis did where he said the Beyonder was a mutant Inhuman. In Englehart's story, Doom lead Ben's FF into the universe of the Beyonders. So I assume that means there is more than one.

The Galactus seed was heavily referenced in FF 600. Not 400. Sorry. Hickman wrote that issue. I hate Bendis having the Beyonder be an Inhuman. I hope that is chucked out!

[John Ossie]

My brain hurts.

After reading your post, so does mine.

[exiled]

If you're correct about the Galactus Seed still being in play, wouldn't that mean that every other universe that has had its Earth destroyed, not just the original one that birthed Rabum Alal, would also have the Galactus Seed be born and become the Great Destroyer, so that now there is a GD for each and every universe that was 'saved' by blowing up its Earth, whether or not it was evacuated? Shouldn't there be a whole big group of Great Destroyers by now? And a whole lot of universes that turn out to be doomed to an early death anyway, because they're getting eaten by this successor to Galactus?

Or are there a bunch of universes where the Galactus Seed was never brought to Earth proper from the roots of the World Tree and this just isn't a factor?

And isn't the Galactus Seed also supposed to be the seed for the next universe as a whole, so that if the Great Destroyer succeeds in ending everything early, that also means immediately thereafter the universe gets a new start?

Great point. But I don't see it written anywhere that every alternate earth has to have the seed. And the explanation you gave is what Odin said. Galactus said something different in FF 600. He said the seed is a celestial mistake and anamoly. If born it would replace Galactus. It would lack restraint and everything would end sooner. Also when born it will tumble through time and space to places less accessible. I am paraphrasing Galactus but that is the description he gave. To me that sound like it could be Rabum Alal. :-)

[exiled]

The first Super-Adaptoid was made with the help of a Cosmic Cube, and always had a tiny bit of its power inside. The Mapmakers probably have an energy signature similar to Molecule Man's (who was empowered by the Cosmic Cube too) because they are duplicates of the first one (which was able to create lesser Super-Adaptoids).

Wow! Great point! I never even made that connection!