Avengers/New Avengers: Time Runs Out (with spoilers)

[neohuey89]

This is all about Stark and Hawkeye. The time jump in Avengers of 8 months is supposed to give us a clue on why 48 years Future Hawkeye punched Stark 3 times. There is something Stark could do differently so people don't die, but he does them anyway. What we are really looking for now in Avengers #36 onwards is the thing Stark did "that turned everything to dust the first time". I want to see Hawkeye from now on to see what he knows about this.

It seems, from the enigmatic statements of 48 years future Hawkeye, that this occurred more than one time, which means what I think happens in Time Runs Out, is that time goes haywire and time happens over and over again. That's why future Hawkeye says "the first time".

well we're not sure what's going on right now, but after seeing Wakanda destroyed by the Cabal and the robots and the world feeling "helpless" there may have been mass destruction in other locations as well. Avengers (the book) seemed a bit more upbeat , but I doubt it's all peachy keen everywhere.

[jackolover]

well we're not sure what's going on right now, but after seeing Wakanda destroyed by the Cabal and the robots and the world feeling "helpless" there may have been mass destruction in other locations as well. Avengers (the book) seemed a bit more upbeat , but I doubt it's all peachy keen everywhere.

Or, it's the first steps of "Turning everything to dust"

[jphamlore]

So who are some candidates for the Great Destroyer? My candidates that Hickman has used are:

1. Isaac Newton from Hickman's S.H.I.E.L.D. who might hate the idea of the Multiverse and of Earth embracing being in space.
2. Black Swan, same idea as Asimov's Mule in Foundation, the character hiding in plain sight.
3. Abyss, a manifestation of Death
4. future Franklin Richards, who was said to have destroyed many possible futures to arrange for the one in which his father lived.

[TakoM]

I didn't know about the X-Men being on Skrull world at the same time. I still would have thought a Skrull invasion without the Illuminati DNA was going to be a short lived Invasion, without disguising themselves so they couldn't be detected, the Skrulls would have never got so far into the Initiative.

And Tony never needed Illuminati support. Mark Millar already had Tony, Pym and Reed as a scientific team working on projects back in Marvel Knights Spiderman, so they were already a team by CW.

Yes, I agree on the time travel option to end the Incursions.

The X-Men were there after a adventure in another dimension to stop the Juggernaut. When they have been transported back they ended up in the wrong time in the wrong location. This happened in the pre-prelude to Apocalypse: The Twelve.

About the first incursion so far I did understand Future Franklin was the one responsible for that he wanted to stop the Iluuminati by forcing them out of the game by diminish their possibilities.
I can be wrong because he speaks in enigmas . Hickman has a habit when things got important he let his characters talk in a way where they talk a lot and say nothing.

I think it is because he hates spoilers but it is a little more than that he don't let his characters say their true motivation...you only guess what it is this way Hickman set up the readers to false direction to turn anything later 180 degree inside the story.

[sifighter]

I wonder if The Trial of Hank McCoy will factor into what's going on with Beast 8 months from now?

I also wonder if the X-men(or X-force since they are the stealth group) are hunting down Beast, plus possibly Captain Britain, the same way the Avengers are tracking down the Illuminati.

[vitruvian]

Or, it's the first steps of "Turning everything to dust"

Except that Hawkeye and his surroundings are not dust in those scenes.

[vitruvian]

I'd fault them for not putting the evacuation plan on top of the bomb plan if none of them are willing to use the bombs. The inherent fault in the bomb strategy makes really almost any other option preferable at least as far as they are concerned. If you're not going to do plan a, then you REALLY REALLY need a plan b.

I don't think the bombs were ever supposed to be Plan A, they were always supposed to be Plan Z, the last contingency fallback plan if everything else fails. It's just that Hickman is writing them as though they've never actually been successful in coming up with technical solutions to incredible problems, and aren't even capable of coming up with wild, crazy concepts for a solution that they'd at least like to try before resorting to genocide.

That's been the most disappointing thing to me so far... that they've spent all this time researching and haven't come up with any alternatives, even if those alternatives are doomed to failure by the nature of the story being told. Even if Hickman didn't want to take up time showing them making the actual attempts (as he likes to skip over the actual climax and do a retrospective so often), they should at least have had some dialogue about having tried various tricks and knowing now that they wouldn't work.

[vitruvian]

Well they all thought they were willing to use the bombs right up until the very moment it came down to pressing the button. I don't think any of them expected their conscious to get the better of them.

Not true. Tony's been admitting for a while that he didn't know if his conscience would let him kill another Earth.

[vitruvian]

Yeah, Black Swan did help out a bit. She rarely gave straight answers, but she did give intel. Problem is they never really used any of the information they gave her.

She flat out told them for example that evacuation the planet was a viable (albeit cowardly from her perspective) means of dealing with the incursions. And the Illuminati just kind of ignored it and moved on. WTF?

See, I really thought the Dyson Sphere was going to end up being their response to that hint from Black Swan, but Hickman appears to have clued Chekhov's gun to the mantelpiece there.

[vitruvian]

They really should have. They knew they couldn't trust her but they didn't really do any independent research. Their main flaw was they only had like seven members and not nearly enough time. So they end up putting all their eggs in the bomb basket and pretty much hoping that another Earth would have an answer.

No, they stated several times that they were researching other solutions. It's just that when it came to it that that research appears not to have resulted in anything they could even try.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

No, they stated several times that they were researching other solutions. It's just that when it came to it that that research appears not to have resulted in anything they could even try.

True. I suppose the problem is we weren't told of any of the research ever since they got the bridge. All they did after that was prepare to kill worlds. They didn't seem to have any nonlethal solutions.

[jackolover]

The X-Men were there after a adventure in another dimension to stop the Juggernaut. When they have been transported back they ended up in the wrong time in the wrong location. This happened in the pre-prelude to Apocalypse: The Twelve.

About the first incursion so far I did understand Future Franklin was the one responsible for that he wanted to stop the Iluuminati by forcing them out of the game by diminish their possibilities.
I can be wrong because he speaks in enigmas . Hickman has a habit when things got important he let his characters talk in a way where they talk a lot and say nothing.

I think it is because he hates spoilers but it is a little more than that he don't let his characters say their true motivation...you only guess what it is this way Hickman set up the readers to false direction to turn anything later 180 degree inside the story.

The Franklin reference. That was in the Original Sin Avengers arc wasn't it? If not, could you let me know where that conversation took place?

And yes, Hickman tends to the enigmatic, so he doesn't reveal too much all at once, and makes the reader wait for juicy bits. He tends to do it in arcs. He'll only show so much in one arc, then suddenly in the next arc, another tid bit. He seems to reveal in jumps.

[jackolover]

Except that Hawkeye and his surroundings are not dust in those scenes.

It may not have turned to dust just yet, but heading towards that event. We know Hawkeye knows about his future self now, from OS Avengers, so it will be interesting if Hawkeye had kept an eye on Tony Stark during the 8 months time jump, considering future Hawkeye punched Tony 3 times for what happens. It might almost be worth Hawkeye killing Tony Stark if he got the chance.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

Do you think that during time runs out we'll find out how the Great Society found out so much information about the incursions when they have only faced three incursions? Or see when they used those other solutions?

[neohuey89]

Do you think that during time runs out we'll find out how the Great Society found out so much information about the incursions when they have only faced three incursions? Or see when they used those other solutions?

Probably. It was mentioned in other threads that one of the Great Society was defeated by Black Bolt, but wasn't shown to be killed by Dr. Strange. I think it was a female, but she may provide information as to what they did to survive (we know one of the solutions killed a lot of people though)