Avengers/New Avengers: Time Runs Out (with spoilers)

[XPac]

What was he actually doing towards saving everybody this whole time, though? Sure, he's not a scientist or magician, but if he hasn't been working on it himself, and he hasn't been looking for other sources of help, what has he actually been doing? If the answer is nothing, I'd have to say the evidence that he actually wants to save anybody rather than just punish the Illuminati is thin on the ground.

And that's where we can agree to disagree. I can see why one might interpret it that way... but I don't believe suicidal Steve, the representative of life, was what the character believed or what marvel was going for. Rather I think it's just a case of Hickman doing a so-so job handling the character.

[vitruvian]

And that's where we can agree to disagree. I can see why one might interpret it that way... but I don't believe suicidal Steve, the representative of life, was what the character believed or what marvel was going for. Rather I think it's just a case of Hickman doing a so-so job handling the character.

I can only go with what is actually shown to happen in the story, though. If this Steve doesn't actually do anything to save the universe, even go around asking Odin or Gladiator or whoever for help doing it, then how am I supposed to believe he actually has that as a goal? Especially when he's spending all his time hunting down the people who, despite all their flaws, are actually working towards that same goal?

[stillanerd]

Okay, so just to make it clear--with only 22 universes left, that suggests that, even after the Illuminati and then the Cabal were going around destroying Earths to prevent incursions under the logic that by destroying one Earth both universes would be spared, those now Earth-less universes wound up being destroyed anyway, right? And the theory is that whoever or whatever is causing the incursions changed the rules, or that Hickman just changed things, etc. Thing is, based on what we were told about how the Incursions worked, the logic that both universes could be spared simply by destroying an Earth was always flawed. At least it was for me.

Think about it--we know that the Marvel multiverse is collapsing in on itself, and the focal point of this collapse is an Earth. Hence why when an Incursion happens, the collision point is always between Earths as opposed to some other planets. And if both Earth's collide, then both universes are destroyed. But the way both universes could be spared, according to Black Swan, was if one Earth was destroyed before the Incursion could happen, and the Illuminati believed this was the case. Except, as far as I know, none of the Illumanti asked, "What a minute? If an Earth is the impact point of an Incursion, and if both Earths of those universes colliding destroy both universes, then how can blowing up the Earth of one universe spare both universes?" And based on what Reed said in the latest issue of New Avengers--it didn't.

Again, the reason why the Incursions are happening is because the multiverse is collapsing, with universes literally colliding into each other, with an Earth as it's point of impact. But just because the Illuminati preventing Earths from colliding by destroying one Earth doesn't mean they actually prevented both universes from colliding; if anything, the universe which still had an Earth kept plowing on through and the universe which had it's Earth blown up wound up being destroyed regardless. Instead of having two solid objects smash into each other, the Illumanti blew a small hole in one of those objects for which the other would pass right on through and destroy whatever surrounded the hole as it passed by. Considering how fewer universes there are allows for more incursions to occur at a faster rate, this would mean that rather than slowing down the collapse of the multiverse, the Illumanti and later Cabal actually helped to speed up the process without their realizing it. And since we also know that, thanks to the premise of Secret Wars, that when an Incursion does happen, the remnants of both universes wind up on Battleworld, it means that that rather than sparing both universes, the Illumanti were actually destroying one all along.

And it would surprise me at all if Black Swan had been lying about the true nature of the Incursions all along, and thus outsmarted and outplayed the Illumanti, for her own agenda. Maybe the reason why she has those genetic samples is because, somehow, she knew the multiverse collapse would result in Battleworld and is planning to repopulate it with her own kind, and that she just had to eliminate some universes so as to have less resistance.

[Reviresco]

I'm not following you exactly, but that's not what Reed and the Illuminati discovered when Black Swan appeared. It's not like they didn't double check what she said and do the math.

What causes the end of the multiverse is when two universes are destroyed, not when an Earth is destroyed. The Cabal only destroyed 14 worlds and saved 28 universes. It's entirely possible 14 million Earths were not destroyed in the same amount of time, and 28 million universes were destroyed -- which is what would have hastened the end of the multiverse.

Regardless, Hickman has changed the rules and the catalyst has taken out most of the multiverse, hastening the end of everything to lightspeed.

[Mahes]

Perhaps the act of trying to go after both the Ivory Kings and Rabum Alal made them speed up their war? That's the catalyst?

[XPac]

I can only go with what is actually shown to happen in the story, though. If this Steve doesn't actually do anything to save the universe, even go around asking Odin or Gladiator or whoever for help doing it, then how am I supposed to believe he actually has that as a goal? Especially when he's spending all his time hunting down the people who, despite all their flaws, are actually working towards that same goal?

I just don't agree that not seeing something happen means it didn't. Especially for this story. Rather I believe not seeing it happen means it's open to interpretation whether or not it did until the story tells us one way or the other.

To me at least it makes more sense to assume that he did. Others may disagree and that's fair too.

And their goals were the same but their methods up to a point were not. That's why he got mind wiped. You can say the same for the Cabal quite frankly.

[robreedwrites]

Okay, so just to make it clear--with only 22 universes left, that suggests that, even after the Illuminati and then the Cabal were going around destroying Earths to prevent incursions under the logic that by destroying one Earth both universes would be spared, those now Earth-less universes wound up being destroyed anyway, right? And the theory is that whoever or whatever is causing the incursions changed the rules, or that Hickman just changed things, etc. Thing is, based on what we were told about how the Incursions worked, the logic that both universes could be spared simply by destroying an Earth was always flawed. At least it was for me.

Think about it--we know that the Marvel multiverse is collapsing in on itself, and the focal point of this collapse is an Earth. Hence why when an Incursion happens, the collision point is always between Earths as opposed to some other planets. And if both Earth's collide, then both universes are destroyed. But the way both universes could be spared, according to Black Swan, was if one Earth was destroyed before the Incursion could happen, and the Illuminati believed this was the case. Except, as far as I know, none of the Illumanti asked, "What a minute? If an Earth is the impact point of an Incursion, and if both Earths of those universes colliding destroy both universes, then how can blowing up the Earth of one universe spare both universes?" And based on what Reed said in the latest issue of New Avengers--it didn't.

Again, the reason why the Incursions are happening is because the multiverse is collapsing, with universes literally colliding into each other, with an Earth as it's point of impact. But just because the Illuminati preventing Earths from colliding by destroying one Earth doesn't mean they actually prevented both universes from colliding; if anything, the universe which still had an Earth kept plowing on through and the universe which had it's Earth blown up wound up being destroyed regardless. Instead of having two solid objects smash into each other, the Illumanti blew a small hole in one of those objects for which the other would pass right on through and destroy whatever surrounded the hole as it passed by. Considering how fewer universes there are allows for more incursions to occur at a faster rate, this would mean that rather than slowing down the collapse of the multiverse, the Illumanti and later Cabal actually helped to speed up the process without their realizing it. And since we also know that, thanks to the premise of Secret Wars, that when an Incursion does happen, the remnants of both universes wind up on Battleworld, it means that that rather than sparing both universes, the Illumanti were actually destroying one all along.

And it would surprise me at all if Black Swan had been lying about the true nature of the Incursions all along, and thus outsmarted and outplayed the Illumanti, for her own agenda. Maybe the reason why she has those genetic samples is because, somehow, she knew the multiverse collapse would result in Battleworld and is planning to repopulate it with her own kind, and that she just had to eliminate some universes so as to have less resistance.

Black Swan never said that you could save the universes by destroying the Earths. That's what the Illuminati thought, because they weren't listening to her fully. Black Swan said that you could stop the Incursions by destroying the various Earths. However, she insisted that there was no way out of what was coming. That Rabum Alal was still going to destroy everything.

[Reviresco]

Perhaps the act of trying to go after both the Ivory Kings and Rabum Alal made them speed up their war? That's the catalyst?

I'm fine with that theory. Sunspot should get some dirt thrown on him too, since everyone else is. LOL!

[Reviresco]

Black Swan never said that you could save the universes by destroying the Earths. That's what the Illuminati thought, because they weren't listening to her fully. Black Swan said that you could stop the Incursions by destroying the various Earths. However, she insisted that there was no way out of what was coming. That Rabum Alal was still going to destroy everything.

The Illuminati were listening fine and corroborated Black Swan's claims. They understood the multiverse was dying artificially quicker, even if they got their planet / universe out of the way. But they couldn't do anything about until they did get their own Earth clear.

[Habis]

His point was precisely stop the incursions WITHOUT using the bombs. Which is what his problem with them was all along. He just didn't know that since the mind wipe they came around to his way of thinking. That's one of the ironies about the whole thing... in the end they ended up mindwiping Steve over something they themselves ended up agreeing with him on. And it's part of the reason why it was so easy for them to really get on the same page.

Steve knows them. He must know that they were researching a way to stop the Incursions without blowing planets.

And again, Steve didn't do a thing to try to find a way to stop the Incursions. We have a man who thinks that, is you don't surrender and fight to the end, you will success. But on the other hand, when you watch what he actually does, he doesn't do anything.

He could ask Adam Brashear, Peter Parker, Mentor of Titan, the High Evolutionary and all the other non-Illuminati genius to research a solution; he could try to contact the Watchers, the Elders of the Universe, Galactus, Eon, Odin, Zeus; he could seek a Cosmic Cube; he could seek a way to evacuate Earth...but he doesn't do anything.

And that undermines his professed belief that if you fight hard enough, you always win. He isn't fighting to stop the Incursions, so, according to his own beliefs, every Earth that dies is his fault too, because, again according to his beliefs, if he had tried hard enough he would have stopped them. And stopping the Incursions would have stopped the planet-blowing too.

We see a man who hold two opposite beliefs: "We won't blow other Earths because, if we try hard enough, we will stop the Incursions without doing so" and also "I won't even try to stop the Incursions, I can't do a thing about that".

The moral high ground would be to work to stop the Incursions. He didn't do that.

[XPac]

Steve knows them. He must know that they were researching a way to stop the Incursions without blowing planets.

And again, Steve didn't do a thing to try to find a way to stop the Incursions. We have a man who thinks that, is you don't surrender and fight to the end, you will success. But on the other hand, when you watch what he actually does, he doesn't do anything.

He could ask Adam Brashear, Peter Parker, Mentor of Titan, the High Evolutionary and all the other non-Illuminati genius to research a solution; he could try to contact the Watchers, the Elders of the Universe, Galactus, Eon, Odin, Zeus; he could seek a Cosmic Cube; he could seek a way to evacuate Earth...but he doesn't do anything.

And that undermines his professed belief that if you fight hard enough, you always win. He isn't fighting to stop the Incursions, so, according to his own beliefs, every Earth that dies is his fault too, because, again according to his beliefs, if he had tried hard enough he would have stopped them. And stopping the Incursions would have stopped the planet-blowing too.

We see a man who hold two opposite beliefs: "We won't blow other Earths because, if we try hard enough, we will stop the Incursions without doing so" and also "I won't even try to stop the Incursions, I can't do a thing about that".

The moral high ground would be to work to stop the Incursions. He didn't do that.

Steve knew they would try and alternate methods aside from the bomb. What he didn't know was that they came to the same conclusion he did about not using the bombs entirely. Again that's why he was mind wiped. Once he knew they essentially agreed with him on that one point working with them was a non-issue.

[Viteh]

Okay, so just to make it clear--with only 22 universes left, that suggests that, even after the Illuminati and then the Cabal were going around destroying Earths to prevent incursions under the logic that by destroying one Earth both universes would be spared, those now Earth-less universes wound up being destroyed anyway, right? And the theory is that whoever or whatever is causing the incursions changed the rules, or that Hickman just changed things, etc. Thing is, based on what we were told about how the Incursions worked, the logic that both universes could be spared simply by destroying an Earth was always flawed. At least it was for me.

Think about it--we know that the Marvel multiverse is collapsing in on itself, and the focal point of this collapse is an Earth. Hence why when an Incursion happens, the collision point is always between Earths as opposed to some other planets. And if both Earth's collide, then both universes are destroyed. But the way both universes could be spared, according to Black Swan, was if one Earth was destroyed before the Incursion could happen, and the Illuminati believed this was the case. Except, as far as I know, none of the Illumanti asked, "What a minute? If an Earth is the impact point of an Incursion, and if both Earths of those universes colliding destroy both universes, then how can blowing up the Earth of one universe spare both universes?" And based on what Reed said in the latest issue of New Avengers--it didn't.

Again, the reason why the Incursions are happening is because the multiverse is collapsing, with universes literally colliding into each other, with an Earth as it's point of impact. But just because the Illuminati preventing Earths from colliding by destroying one Earth doesn't mean they actually prevented both universes from colliding; if anything, the universe which still had an Earth kept plowing on through and the universe which had it's Earth blown up wound up being destroyed regardless. Instead of having two solid objects smash into each other, the Illumanti blew a small hole in one of those objects for which the other would pass right on through and destroy whatever surrounded the hole as it passed by. Considering how fewer universes there are allows for more incursions to occur at a faster rate, this would mean that rather than slowing down the collapse of the multiverse, the Illumanti and later Cabal actually helped to speed up the process without their realizing it. And since we also know that, thanks to the premise of Secret Wars, that when an Incursion does happen, the remnants of both universes wind up on Battleworld, it means that that rather than sparing both universes, the Illumanti were actually destroying one all along.

And it would surprise me at all if Black Swan had been lying about the true nature of the Incursions all along, and thus outsmarted and outplayed the Illumanti, for her own agenda. Maybe the reason why she has those genetic samples is because, somehow, she knew the multiverse collapse would result in Battleworld and is planning to repopulate it with her own kind, and that she just had to eliminate some universes so as to have less resistance.

It may be possible that the Incursions carry on after the other Earth is destroyed (although that seems like the kind of thing they'd notice). But I don't think that's why hundreds of thousands of universes died, there was another event that destroyed them, even the ones without an Earth.

[Habis]

Steve knew they would try and alternate methods aside from the bomb. What he didn't know was that they came to the same conclusion he did about not using the bombs entirely. Again that's why he was mind wiped. Once he knew they essentially agreed with him on that one point working with them was a non-issue.

That doesn't change the fact that he wasted his time and resources chasing them when he could have tried something on his own.

If he had found a way to stop the Incursions, the planet-blowing stops too.

It may be possible that the Incursions carry on after the other Earth is destroyed (although that seems like the kind of thing they'd notice). But I don't think that's why hundreds of thousands of universes died, there was another event that destroyed them, even the ones without an Earth.

I wish they had explained that a bit better. That panel could induce us to think that only the universes with Earths were destroyed, because what the screen shows are EARTHS.

But yes, it was something else. Even if all the stars of the Earthless universes died, there would be a bunch of black holes, neutron stars, brown dwarf stars and dead planets left, and the time and space itself would be left untouched. Those 100,000 remaining universes were wiped by something else, a mega-Incursion of sorts.

Also, I would like to know if the past gets erased. That's another obvious place of refuge for Marvel characters.

[XPac]

That doesn't change the fact that he wasted his time and resources chasing them when he could have tried something on his own.

If he had found a way to stop the Incursions, the planet-blowing stops too.

And this is where our views differ. You think Steve didn't use any SHIELD resources to try and find a solution and was suicidal. I think he likely did and it simply wasn't shown. To me that just makes more sense.

[Viteh]

And this is where our views differ. You think Steve didn't use any SHIELD resources to try and find a solution and was suicidal. I think he likely did and it simply wasn't shown. To me that just makes more sense.

It would make sense for him to do that, but he's not being written as the most rational guy. I'd assume he hasn't, since we haven't seen anything about it. That's half the reason Natasha and Spider-Woman left.