Avengers/New Avengers: Time Runs Out (with spoilers)

[XPac]

Now that you mentioned it.....(although as with most characters, the more you appear in a monthly title, the more baggage you accrue).

I actually think Reed is fairly stable. Which isn't to say there aren't quite a few things you can fairly criticize him for, but he's not losing it either.

And it's a good thing too, because frankly an unstable Reed is probably one of the scariest things in the entire MU (see Ultimate Reed for that). In a lot of ways I'd be more afraid of an unstable Reed than a Dr. Doom.

[Mark]

I keep wondering if the main mu deserves to survive. I don't see much heroism or nobility here, just a raw scramble for power and survival.

[Trident]

I think Reed is more stable than most of the team (that or he just hides it better)but I still think the guy isn't fully on kil. Not that anyone should expect any of the members on the team to be perfect models for stability anyway. Normal genius usually have adnomral behavior or tendency that most people would never do or understand, being a super genius like these guys just adds that much more crazy to the mix.

What's the saying...." Their is a fine line between genius and absolute insanity" ? Think that's right.

[Cmbmool]

If I had my guess, I think that the Fantastic Four will be involved in this sometime early next year to tie things up a bit.

[Double 0]

Something is bothering me about this storyline, and it came up in Avengers #35.

The suicidal stars.


That means that as long as this incursion issue is happening, entire systems are dying. That changes the stakes significantly.


If galaxies are dying because of Earth's continued existence, wouldn't that mean destroying Earth is the short term solution of saving the universe? If others have found that out, shouldn't they be trying to blow up Earth right now?

[John Ossie]

Something is bothering me about this storyline, and it came up in Avengers #35.

The suicidal stars.

Yeah the suicidal stars is a bit of a problem isn't it?

[ShaokhaN]

Something is bothering me about this storyline, and it came up in Avengers #35.

The suicidal stars.


That means that as long as this incursion issue is happening, entire systems are dying. That changes the stakes significantly.


If galaxies are dying because of Earth's continued existence, wouldn't that mean destroying Earth is the short term solution of saving the universe? If others have found that out, shouldn't they be trying to blow up Earth right now?

We don't know that blowing up the Earth would stop the suicidal stars. The Black Swan said that even destroying a universe's Earth would not prevent that universe from dying sooner than normal, so it is possible that the stars are "suiciding" because of the wider multiversal collapse and not simply the continued existence of the Earth. It's possible that hypothesis is wrong, though, but we simply don't know enough to determine the truth so far.

[Anthony Shaw]

Pretty much all of these characters were more stable before this book started.

Very true, indeed. These incursions have broken down some of the greatest heroes.

[Anthony Shaw]

I actually think Reed is fairly stable. Which isn't to say there aren't quite a few things you can fairly criticize him for, but he's not losing it either.

And it's a good thing too, because frankly an unstable Reed is probably one of the scariest things in the entire MU (see Ultimate Reed for that). In a lot of ways I'd be more afraid of an unstable Reed than a Dr. Doom.

To me, Reed becomes less stable the longer he is away from his family. They really anchor him. I think Tony was more human when Rhodey was a supporting character.

The fact that these guys isolated themselves from their loved ones while taking on a seemingly impossible task is bringing out the worse in them.

I am just now noticing how Namor seems the most balanced......he's not commonly known to have anyone (mostly all his key loved ones tend to die horribly).

I think if Ben was the muscle for the Illuminati, instead of Namor, things would be going down a bit differently.

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I hope that this storyline leads to something good but I'm likely it so far.

[Scorponok]

Very true, indeed. These incursions have broken down some of the greatest heroes.

When you look at, there's a thin line on being a hero or a villian. Especially when the Illumaniti called Namor a monster for destroying a Earth, which he responded that they've all become monsters.

[TresDias]

I keep wondering if the main mu deserves to survive. I don't see much heroism or nobility here, just a raw scramble for power and survival.

Who is scrambling for power?

[The Sword is Drawn]

With Captain Britain, I was referring to the early issues of Excalibur, as well as his state of mind between his first meeting with Spider-Man in America and his team-up with the Black Knight. Both instances were explained to show that part Brian's erratic behavior was being influenced by outside forces. I never read Rick's portrayals of Brian. The last time I read Captain Britain was the woefully short Captain Britain and MI: 13 series.

Believe me when I say that you did not miss out. Both Brian and Hawkeye were really quite poorly portrayed on Secret Avengers. Both characters had their personalities reverted to some long gone age, which was probably the last time Remender actually read them.

In Brian's case this was particularly damaging, because Captain Britain & MI13 had repositioned the character, his powers and premise, so incredibly well. Most people who've follow the character long term have been greatly frustrated with Marvel's handling of the character almost ever since he was brought to Excalibur. It's seen as a deviation from the character's roots. CB&MI13 viewed the character as a whole, and rebalanced it as a much rounder and fuller version.

Remender did not keep any of that. He shoved him back in his old costume and had him behave like a stroppy and petulant child. So many errors on Uncanny X-Force, based on not having researched the character or the Braddock family properly. It almost went far enough to be considered a character assasination carrying through into Secret Avengers.

I have far more confidence in Hickman handling the cjaracter. After reading his Ultimate Thor serues, which made use of Ultimate Brian, I have confidence that he can deliver on both the character and portraying the mystical side of his powers wthout making it all sound too daft.

Pym breaking under stress, and Brian being susceptible to outside influence makes them, to me, two guys known for being unstable.

As I posted above, that side to Brian is considered to be in the past though. HE's both matured and grown a heck of a lot since the 80s. Even became a pacifist for a brief time on Excalibur, before returning to being Captain Britain full-time.

I wish people would stop trying to return to that, to be honest. It's like focussing entirely on how we all behave aged like 17 to 21 - believing like we know everything there is to know about life and the world. Until we encounter Life. And the World. And realise we don't.

I am a fan of both characters, and I am glad to see them appearing in a core title.

All the members of the Illuminati are dealing with serious baggage.

Likewise. I'm a fan of Cho, too. This is just such a logical set of characters to be making use of. Yes, they have some baggage. But that also brings some other opportunities with it.

[ExtremisEdge]

Hey guys! So glad I found this thread! Let's get it into although I think you guys have already started the party without me.

I have long said that all these events need to have a standing and significant impact on the Marvel U as a whole. Let me begin by saying that I am 100% on the side of Captain America and the forces he commands and the ethics and ideology he stands for. I am a die hard Iron Man fan (was before I even got into Cap), but something about Tony's arrogance has recently turned me off, especially in the context of a group such as the Avengers. Stark and Cap are essentially brothers. They have been friends through thick and thin and it really pains me to see Tony hurting Cap in the ways he mentioned in Avengers #29, and especially during their entire table discussion back in New Avengers #3. I very much see the world in black and white as Cap does and I do not believe in the necessity of evil. Cap's "pussy superhero morals" as some would call them, of which I thought I would never be standing in support of, have convinced me that Steve has and always will know the most correct way to go about things.

For me, Avengers #35 did what it needed to do. It introduced the sides that are going to be in conflict and if gave us just enough where we could and should speculate but also not enough to the point where we want to know "WTH IS GOING ON!" It's well established that Stark pays for everything in terms of Avengers support and infrastructure but Cap commands and exerts loyalty. All the major hitters are and remain on his side (Thor, Hyperion, Natasha, Hawkeye, Carol, She-Hulk, etc.) I think this is a dangerous game Tony and the Illuminiati are playing. They know they can't win but WTH HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST 8 months that now we see SHIELD and Sue on a complete and some would call, ultra-facist manhunt for Stark, Reed, and Strange?! Does Tony's arrogance even extend to the point where he would willingly destroy so many relationships and friendships that he's made throughout his career? Are we truly witnessing a complete Marvel overhaul following AXIS and Hickman's in 8 months time runs out arc? WTH will the Avengers even look like after this?! Why is Banner even being pursued? I always thought of him as a reluctant member of the illuminati and given all the past beef between him and Tony, I'd imagine Banner being more skeptical and confrontational with these self important and self righteous pricks. The number one thing that ticks me off though about having such a connected universe is where does Cap's aging fit into all this? Does Avengers #29 and on occur several months or weeks AFTER Cap's battle with the Iron Nail? How is it possible that we' see Sam (the new CAP) fighting alongside Iron Man in promotional material for AXIS when we very clearly know that Steve would tell Sam "YO! Don't trust Stark, he's a prick, and a liar, and a murderer." I just want to know if Hickman will be the one to explain how Cap's aging fits into his fight against Stark and co. or if Remender will be handling that? What do you guys think? What do you guys think about the many sides in this conflict? Do some of you guys truly believe that no side is right? Does anyone think this could all end in a major characters death? Like Strange or Reed? How will Tony release a commercial version of Extremis to the general public without any consequences? Will Hawkeye's vision of Cap fighting Stark come true whereby Cap will very likely be forced to kill Stark? Will Marvel editorial allow Hickman to get truly dark and depressing as we know all know he very well could? I truly apologize for being this passionate but I love that Marvel isn't afraid to pit so many beloved characters against each other. Thanks guys!

[DeamonSnow]

Hey guys! So glad I found this thread! Let's get it into although I think you guys have already started the party without me.

I have long said that all these events need to have a standing and significant impact on the Marvel U as a whole. Let me begin by saying that I am 100% on the side of Captain America and the forces he commands and the ethics and ideology he stands for. I am a die hard Iron Man fan (was before I even got into Cap), but something about Tony's arrogance has recently turned me off, especially in the context of a group such as the Avengers. Stark and Cap are essentially brothers. They have been friends through thick and thin and it really pains me to see Tony hurting Cap in the ways he mentioned in Avengers #29, and especially during their entire table discussion back in New Avengers #3. I very much see the world in black and white as Cap does and I do not believe in the necessity of evil. Cap's "pussy superhero morals" as some would call them, of which I thought I would never be standing in support of, have convinced me that Steve has and always will know the most correct way to go about things.

For me, Avengers #35 did what it needed to do. It introduced the sides that are going to be in conflict and if gave us just enough where we could and should speculate but also not enough to the point where we want to know "WTH IS GOING ON!" It's well established that Stark pays for everything in terms of Avengers support and infrastructure but Cap commands and exerts loyalty. All the major hitters are and remain on his side (Thor, Hyperion, Natasha, Hawkeye, Carol, She-Hulk, etc.) I think this is a dangerous game Tony and the Illuminiati are playing. They know they can't win but WTH HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST 8 months that now we see SHIELD and Sue on a complete and some would call, ultra-facist manhunt for Stark, Reed, and Strange?! Does Tony's arrogance even extend to the point where he would willingly destroy so many relationships and friendships that he's made throughout his career? Are we truly witnessing a complete Marvel overhaul following AXIS and Hickman's in 8 months time runs out arc? WTH will the Avengers even look like after this?! Why is Banner even being pursued? I always thought of him as a reluctant member of the illuminati and given all the past beef between him and Tony, I'd imagine Banner being more skeptical and confrontational with these self important and self righteous pricks. The number one thing that ticks me off though about having such a connected universe is where does Cap's aging fit into all this? Does Avengers #29 and on occur several months or weeks AFTER Cap's battle with the Iron Nail? How is it possible that we' see Sam (the new CAP) fighting alongside Iron Man in promotional material for AXIS when we very clearly know that Steve would tell Sam "YO! Don't trust Stark, he's a prick, and a liar, and a murderer." I just want to know if Hickman will be the one to explain how Cap's aging fits into his fight against Stark and co. or if Remender will be handling that? What do you guys think? What do you guys think about the many sides in this conflict? Do some of you guys truly believe that no side is right? Does anyone think this could all end in a major characters death? Like Strange or Reed? How will Tony release a commercial version of Extremis to the general public without any consequences? Will Hawkeye's vision of Cap fighting Stark come true whereby Cap will very likely be forced to kill Stark? Will Marvel editorial allow Hickman to get truly dark and depressing as we know all know he very well could? I truly apologize for being this passionate but I love that Marvel isn't afraid to pit so many beloved characters against each other. Thanks guys!

I believe Hyperion, Thor Odinson, Sunspot, Canonball, Smasher, Nightmask and Starbrand decided not to take sides between Cap/Shield and Tony/illuminati. So I don't think it is fair to say that Tony commands no loyalty, only contributing money to the Avengers. There may be others who sided with Tony after this split like Hank Pym for example. I don't think one side is completely in the right here as Cho does state that the illuminati are trying to save everyone. I still don't see how capturing/stopping the illuminati will stop the incursion problem. As for who will die, I don't see Stark dying but I think Namor will kill someone significant from 616 earth and eventually be killed himself at the end of this story. The path Namor is on will not end well for him.