Avengers/New Avengers: Time Runs Out (with spoilers)

[Anthony Shaw]

When you look at, there's a thin line on being a hero or a villian. Especially when the Illumaniti called Namor a monster for destroying a Earth, which he responded that they've all become monsters.

True, indeed. That thin line makes for great storytelling.

[Anthony Shaw]

Believe me when I say that you did not miss out. Both Brian and Hawkeye were really quite poorly portrayed on Secret Avengers. Both characters had their personalities reverted to some long gone age, which was probably the last time Remender actually read them.

In Brian's case this was particularly damaging, because Captain Britain & MI13 had repositioned the character, his powers and premise, so incredibly well. Most people who've follow the character long term have been greatly frustrated with Marvel's handling of the character almost ever since he was brought to Excalibur. It's seen as a deviation from the character's roots. CB&MI13 viewed the character as a whole, and rebalanced it as a much rounder and fuller version.

Remender did not keep any of that. He shoved him back in his old costume and had him behave like a stroppy and petulant child. So many errors on Uncanny X-Force, based on not having researched the character or the Braddock family properly. It almost went far enough to be considered a character assasination carrying through into Secret Avengers.

I have far more confidence in Hickman handling the cjaracter. After reading his Ultimate Thor serues, which made use of Ultimate Brian, I have confidence that he can deliver on both the character and portraying the mystical side of his powers wthout making it all sound too daft.





As I posted above, that side to Brian is considered to be in the past though. HE's both matured and grown a heck of a lot since the 80s. Even became a pacifist for a brief time on Excalibur, before returning to being Captain Britain full-time.

I wish people would stop trying to return to that, to be honest. It's like focussing entirely on how we all behave aged like 17 to 21 - believing like we know everything there is to know about life and the world. Until we encounter Life. And the World. And realise we don't.





Likewise. I'm a fan of Cho, too. This is just such a logical set of characters to be making use of. Yes, they have some baggage. But that also brings some other opportunities with it.

I almost picked up Secret Avengers just because Brian was wearing the old costume.

I do agree, writers should strive to move forward instead of revisiting greatest lows for characters (especially Pym). I really enjoyed Cornell's portrayal of Brian. It was CC's characterization of Brian that led me top drop Excalibur as a kid back in the 1980's.

I only brought up the past due to how these incursions are bringing out the worst in all the characters. Never would I have imagined usually stoic Black Panther having an emotional break down, and having booty calls with the end of the world looming.

I do hope Brian & Pym can bring a fresh set of eyes to this dilemma.

[Anthony Shaw]

Hey guys! So glad I found this thread! Let's get it into although I think you guys have already started the party without me.

I have long said that all these events need to have a standing and significant impact on the Marvel U as a whole. Let me begin by saying that I am 100% on the side of Captain America and the forces he commands and the ethics and ideology he stands for. I am a die hard Iron Man fan (was before I even got into Cap), but something about Tony's arrogance has recently turned me off, especially in the context of a group such as the Avengers. Stark and Cap are essentially brothers. They have been friends through thick and thin and it really pains me to see Tony hurting Cap in the ways he mentioned in Avengers #29, and especially during their entire table discussion back in New Avengers #3. I very much see the world in black and white as Cap does and I do not believe in the necessity of evil. Cap's "pussy superhero morals" as some would call them, of which I thought I would never be standing in support of, have convinced me that Steve has and always will know the most correct way to go about things.

For me, Avengers #35 did what it needed to do. It introduced the sides that are going to be in conflict and if gave us just enough where we could and should speculate but also not enough to the point where we want to know "WTH IS GOING ON!" It's well established that Stark pays for everything in terms of Avengers support and infrastructure but Cap commands and exerts loyalty. All the major hitters are and remain on his side (Thor, Hyperion, Natasha, Hawkeye, Carol, She-Hulk, etc.) I think this is a dangerous game Tony and the Illuminiati are playing. They know they can't win but WTH HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST 8 months that now we see SHIELD and Sue on a complete and some would call, ultra-facist manhunt for Stark, Reed, and Strange?! Does Tony's arrogance even extend to the point where he would willingly destroy so many relationships and friendships that he's made throughout his career? Are we truly witnessing a complete Marvel overhaul following AXIS and Hickman's in 8 months time runs out arc? WTH will the Avengers even look like after this?! Why is Banner even being pursued? I always thought of him as a reluctant member of the illuminati and given all the past beef between him and Tony, I'd imagine Banner being more skeptical and confrontational with these self important and self righteous pricks. The number one thing that ticks me off though about having such a connected universe is where does Cap's aging fit into all this? Does Avengers #29 and on occur several months or weeks AFTER Cap's battle with the Iron Nail? How is it possible that we' see Sam (the new CAP) fighting alongside Iron Man in promotional material for AXIS when we very clearly know that Steve would tell Sam "YO! Don't trust Stark, he's a prick, and a liar, and a murderer." I just want to know if Hickman will be the one to explain how Cap's aging fits into his fight against Stark and co. or if Remender will be handling that? What do you guys think? What do you guys think about the many sides in this conflict? Do some of you guys truly believe that no side is right? Does anyone think this could all end in a major characters death? Like Strange or Reed? How will Tony release a commercial version of Extremis to the general public without any consequences? Will Hawkeye's vision of Cap fighting Stark come true whereby Cap will very likely be forced to kill Stark? Will Marvel editorial allow Hickman to get truly dark and depressing as we know all know he very well could? I truly apologize for being this passionate but I love that Marvel isn't afraid to pit so many beloved characters against each other. Thanks guys!

Tony should have never expelled Steve like he did. Time of was the essence, and Tony panicked.

The divide comes from each thinking their way is the only & correct way. I think everyone let their egos get the best of them.

Tony & Steve have been back & forth to some degree or another since the Korvac saga, IIRC.

Tony has a history of turning people against him, especially when he thinks his way is the only way. Tony is just wired funny.

[Anthony Shaw]

I believe Hyperion, Thor Odinson, Sunspot, Canonball, Smasher, Nightmask and Starbrand decided not to take sides between Cap/Shield and Tony/illuminati. So I don't think it is fair to say that Tony commands no loyalty, only contributing money to the Avengers. There may be others who sided with Tony after this split like Hank Pym for example. I don't think one side is completely in the right here as Cho does state that the illuminati are trying to save everyone. I still don't see how capturing/stopping the illuminati will stop the incursion problem. As for who will die, I don't see Stark dying but I think Namor will kill someone significant from 616 earth and eventually be killed himself at the end of this story. The path Namor is on will not end well for him.

Everyone failed by letting drama & ego cloud their decisions. But hey, it makes for great reading.

[The Sword is Drawn]

I almost picked up Secret Avengers just because Brian was wearing the old costume.

I do agree, writers should strive to move forward instead of revisiting greatest lows for characters (especially Pym). I really enjoyed Cornell's portrayal of Brian. It was CC's characterization of Brian that led me top drop Excalibur as a kid back in the 1980's.

I only brought up the past due to how these incursions are bringing out the worst in all the characters. Never would I have imagined usually stoic Black Panther having an emotional break down, and having booty calls with the end of the world looming.

I do hope Brian & Pym can bring a fresh set of eyes to this dilemma.

Brian does of course have first hand experience of dealing with the destruction of Universes. He's seen Universes cut off from the multiverse. It wasn't so long ago that he intervened to stop Earth 616 being destroyed, to stop it from damaging the greater multiverse, back in House of M.

Really, making use of him here is something which is just such a total no-brainer that it's hard to believe that it hasn't been done earlier.

[TakoM]

Everyone failed by letting drama & ego cloud their decisions. But hey, it makes for great reading.

Well said but maybe it is more than just failed Abyss lead what caused all of this lead here back to the Avengers but I don't think it was them alone.
Maybe we get an explanation why some hero act like a nut job and not like them self since the beginning of CW.

[MindofShadow]

I believe Hyperion, Thor Odinson, Sunspot, Canonball, Smasher, Nightmask and Starbrand decided not to take sides between Cap/Shield and Tony/illuminati. So I don't think it is fair to say that Tony commands no loyalty, only contributing money to the Avengers. There may be others who sided with Tony after this split like Hank Pym for example. I don't think one side is completely in the right here as Cho does state that the illuminati are trying to save everyone. I still don't see how capturing/stopping the illuminati will stop the incursion problem. As for who will die, I don't see Stark dying but I think Namor will kill someone significant from 616 earth and eventually be killed himself at the end of this story. The path Namor is on will not end well for him.

T'challa is going to kill Namor (or let him die Nolan Batman Semantics style) or Namor is going to sacrifice himself towards the end for the greater good fo the universe to partially redeem him.

I don't see how he makes it out of this event alive

[Trident]

T'challa is going to kill Namor (or let him die Nolan Batman Semantics style) or Namor is going to sacrifice himself towards the end for the greater good fo the universe to partially redeem him.

I don't see how he makes it out of this event alive

Oh Gwad. Not this again.....

[Mahes]

What's with this talk of Namor dying? Could Marvel have him die? Sure but will they? Who knows.

Maybe T'Challa dies to save everyone else.

Edit: One thing to consider is that in the journey into the future that Cap had no mention of Namor happened. We kept hearing about how Tony was a monster. So whatever you may think of Namor and the path he's on...apparently Tony is on a worse one.

[Anthony Shaw]

Brian does of course have first hand experience of dealing with the destruction of Universes. He's seen Universes cut off from the multiverse. It wasn't so long ago that he intervened to stop Earth 616 being destroyed, to stop it from damaging the greater multiverse, back in House of M.

Really, making use of him here is something which is just such a total no-brainer that it's hard to believe that it hasn't been done earlier.

You make great points. Brian has the brains, brawn, and experience to be most useful here. I'd take over Beast, imo.

[Anthony Shaw]

Well said but maybe it is more than just failed Abyss lead what caused all of this lead here back to the Avengers but I don't think it was them alone.
Maybe we get an explanation why some hero act like a nut job and not like them self since the beginning of CW.

You know how some fans complain about event fatigue?

Perhaps the endless battles these guys have endured has worn them down. They just came from AvX, and now you have these incursions.

Some of these guys may be punch-drunk which would explain some of the odd decision making.

[Anthony Shaw]

I honestly don't see T'Challa killing Namor, or allowing him to die. I believe BP needs to provide an epic beat down, though.

I can see Namor sacrificing himself for the greater good, but I doubt he will die (or stay dead for very long).

I certainly don't see BP dying, either.

Both characters need to be rebuilt after all this.

[XPac]

I honestly don't see T'Challa killing Namor, or allowing him to die. I believe BP needs to provide an epic beat down, though.

I can see Namor sacrificing himself for the greater good, but I doubt he will die (or stay dead for very long).

I certainly don't see BP dying, either.

Both characters need to be rebuilt after all this.

Really, the only characters that I think MIGHT die are some of Hickman's new characters introduced in his own story. People like Thane or Star Brand or whatever.

[TakoM]

You know how some fans complain about event fatigue?

Perhaps the endless battles these guys have endured has worn them down. They just came from AvX, and now you have these incursions.

Some of these guys may be punch-drunk which would explain some of the odd decision making.

Who drunk too much ? The authors or the heroes ?

[Anthony Shaw]

Really, the only characters that I think MIGHT die are some of Hickman's new characters introduced in his own story. People like Thane or Star Brand or whatever.

Yes, those are the red-shirts, I'm thinking.

Besides, look at al the buzz surrounding BP & Namor, two guys who can't keep a solo going indefinitely. Look at how many pages have been devoted to those two, regardless of how they are loved or hated by fans.