Avengers/New Avengers: Time Runs Out (with spoilers)

[XPac]

Yeah if only we could see their feud on the big screen...

T'challa has got that wisdom. You can almost say his discretion saved them as well.

T'Challa deserves credit for how he handled a lot of this event.

He wanted peace when Shuri and the rest of Wakanda understandable wanted war... and IMO that would have been the right call. He wanted to put his revenge against Namor on hold for the time being... and again that proved the right decision as Namor was essential in preventing the universe from being destroyed. Again, he made the right call... even if he himself didn't feel that way after the fact.

He lost it at the very end there (and really who wouldn't), but up to that point I think he deserves a lot of credit for keeping himself in check. And they all benefited from that.

[Moose100]

No, yesterday was pretty good actually. Why do you think it must have been tough?

It was great dude! BP is on the way!!!

[Moose100]

T'Challa deserves credit for how he handled a lot of this event.

He wanted peace when Shuri and the rest of Wakanda understandable wanted war... and IMO that would have been the right call. He wanted to put his revenge against Namor on hold for the time being... and again that proved the right decision as Namor was essential in preventing the universe from being destroyed. Again, he made the right call... even if he himself didn't feel that way after the fact.

He lost it at the very end there (and really who wouldn't), but up to that point I think he deserves a lot of credit for keeping himself in check. And they all benefited from that.

Dude im speechless at this..lol

Cuz im agreeing with you..

[Mr MajestiK]

Obviously, we disagree on the interpretation of this story and what it calls for. I don't think this is a story about retribution and revenge. If anything, it shows how futile that path is. And it's clear to me, that the whole business about T'challa saying he's going to kill Namor, isn't a promise of revenge, but ties into his conflict with his ancestors, who want him to kill Namor in revenge. Only to show what a bad decision that would have been.

And in this assumption I'd have to say that you're incorrect.

T'Challa's promise to kill Namor had nothing to do with his ancetors and more to do with Namor's Phoenix Force enabled actions against Wakanda during AvX and herein lies the problem.

Jonathan Hickman inherited the messy fallout from the aformentioned event that in turn, led to a number of conceptual problems that have plagued his New Aveners saga rihgt from the very begining.

Prior to AvX, Namor and T'Challa had always been allies with zero threat of war between their repective Kingdoms but all this changed in much the same way as T'Challa's relationship with Doom changed in the aftermath of Doomwar written by Jonathan Maberry. (which to be fair, had it's origins in the final issues of the Black Panther's solo book penned by Reginald Hudlin before Maberry took over.)

Heading into Hickman's New Avengers, we now had a Namor portrayed wildly out of character surrounded by other well known and iconic Marvel maintays who over a period of time, were equally shown acting in extremely illogical manners at wild variance to their already well established respective canonical continuities within the 616 MU.

The combined intellectual genius of Reed, T'Challa, Stark and Strange (prior to the arrival of McCoy and Banner) were stumped by the Incursion threat and enigmatic obsfucation of the Black Swan and we the readers were presented with the specatacle of the Illuminati chasing shadows rather than reaching out to other powerful minds within the 616 MU for assistance.

And in the midst of all this, the conflict between Atlantis and Wakanda that began during AvX, was still raging unabated.

Written in character, T'Challa would never have invited Namor into Wakanda under the existing circumtances and he certainly wouldn't have gone on to allow the building and stockpiling of WMD's within Wakanda's borders either but we're talking about a story that intrinsically has had to rely on PIS to move forward with all characters concerned (at least from the supposedly heroic side of the equation acting like morons.)

The saga was flawed right from the very beginning and to pretend otherwise is to engage in pointless folly.

So far, the only character that Jonathan Hickman has written properly in NA is this guy right here....



But as for the other major players in this saga, he hasn't done a particularly good job of capturing the quintissential spark that makes each of them special.

At this point, I could care less who gets to kill who.

I just want this morbid tale to reach its conclusion.

[Mr MajestiK]

T'Challa deserves credit for how he handled a lot of this event.

He wanted peace when Shuri and the rest of Wakanda understandable wanted war... and IMO that would have been the right call. He wanted to put his revenge against Namor on hold for the time being... and again that proved the right decision as Namor was essential in preventing the universe from being destroyed. Again, he made the right call... even if he himself didn't feel that way after the fact.

He lost it at the very end there (and really who wouldn't), but up to that point I think he deserves a lot of credit for keeping himself in check. And they all benefited from that.

None of which changes the fact that his stockpiling of WMD's and incarceration of Extinction level Aliens within Wakanda's borders virtually guaranteed that nations destruction at the hands of the newly formed Cabal.

A lot of the conflict could have been avoided if he'd been straight with his sister in the first place especially after Namor's presence in Wakanda was revealed to Queen Shuri by the Dora Milaje.







T'Challa has been written as a stoic fool for much of this saga so I personally fail to see what credit he warrants at this juncture.

But hey, maybe Hickman will suprise us all in the long run with a magnificently meaningful conclusion.

[dzub]

for his crimes against wakanda, Namor has got his retribution.
T'Challa will be on the big screen while he's not :P

let's move on folks

[XPac]

Dude im speechless at this..lol

Cuz im agreeing with you..

There's a reason he's SORT OF the leader of the group.

Illuminati doesn't have a real leader or anything... it's not a real team. But at times hes both the moral compass, and the voice of reason.

Which isn't to say he hasn't screwed up his fair share of times in this event as well... the Illuminati just wouldn't be the Illuminati if everything they do doesn't blow up in their faces. But I think Hickman overall writes a pretty descent T'Challa. If he were to get a Hickman solo book post New Avengers, I'd certainly be on board.

[jphamlore]

There's a reason he's SORT OF the leader of the group.

Illuminati doesn't have a real leader or anything... it's not a real team. But at times hes both the moral compass, and the voice of reason.

The Illuminati could never come to terms with the fact that their real leader was always Black Swan, and when they became of no further use to her, she found another group.

[dzub]

The Illuminati could never come to terms with the fact that their real leader was always Black Swan, and when they became of no further use to her, she found another group.

how is she a 'leader' when all she did was manipulate them?
she found another group cos they did'nt serve her interest ..blowing planets f0r rabum alal

[Username taken]

And in this assumption I'd have to say that you're incorrect.

T'Challa's promise to kill Namor had nothing to do with his ancetors and more to do with Namor's Phoenix Force enabled actions against Wakanda during AvX and herein lies the problem.

Jonathan Hickman inherited the messy fallout from the aformentioned event that in turn, led to a number of conceptual problems that have plagued his New Aveners saga rihgt from the very begining.

Prior to AvX, Namor and T'Challa had always been allies with zero threat of war between their repective Kingdoms but all this changed in much the same way as T'Challa's relationship with Doom changed in the aftermath of Doomwar written by Jonathan Maberry. (which to be fair, had it's origins in the final issues of the Black Panther's solo book penned by Reginald Hudlin before Maberry took over.)

Heading into Hickman's New Avengers, we now had a Namor portrayed wildly out of character surrounded by other well known and iconic Marvel maintays who over a period of time, were equally shown acting in extremely illogical manners at wild variance to their already well established respective canonical continuities within the 616 MU.

The combined intellectual genius of Reed, T'Challa, Stark and Strange (prior to the arrival of McCoy and Banner) were stumped by the Incursion threat and enigmatic obsfucation of the Black Swan and we the readers were presented with the specatacle of the Illuminati chasing shadows rather than reaching out to other powerful minds within the 616 MU for assistance.

And in the midst of all this, the conflict between Atlantis and Wakanda that began during AvX, was still raging unabated.

Written in character, T'Challa would never have invited Namor into Wakanda under the existing circumtances and he certainly wouldn't have gone on to allow the building and stockpiling of WMD's within Wakanda's borders either but we're talking about a story that intrinsically has had to rely on PIS to move forward with all characters concerned (at least from the supposedly heroic side of the equation acting like morons.)

The saga was flawed right from the very beginning and to pretend otherwise is to engage in pointless folly.

So far, the only character that Jonathan Hickman has written properly in NA is this guy right here....



But as for the other major players in this saga, he hasn't done a particularly good job of capturing the quintissential spark that makes each of them special.

At this point, I could care less who gets to kill who.

I just want this morbid tale to reach its conclusion.

Well said.

Very well said.

[jphamlore]

how is she a 'leader' when all she did was manipulate them?
she found another group cos they did'nt serve her interest ..blowing planets f0r rabum alal

That model of leadership worked out well initially for Norman Osborn going from Thunderbolts to Dark Avengers ...

[Reviresco]

And in this assumption I'd have to say that you're incorrect.

It's not an assumption, it's my interpretation of the story. You can disagree with it, but there's evidence in the story for it, so at this point, I wouldn't say it's incorrect.

T'Challa's promise to kill Namor had nothing to do with his ancetors and more to do with Namor's Phoenix Force enabled actions against Wakanda during AvX and herein lies the problem.

Yes, that's the in story cause for T'challa's threat, but that's not what was I talking about. I was responding to the idea put forth by others that T'challa's threat is supposed to be foreshadowing of him literally keeping that promise. And thus the story calls for Namor death. I disagree, because it's the exact same thing T'challa's ancestors want made good on, and we're shown that they are wrong. We're shown repeatedly that revenge doesn't end well and is not the answer.

Jonathan Hickman inherited the messy fallout from the aformentioned event that in turn, led to a number of conceptual problems that have plagued his New Aveners saga rihgt from the very begining.

I'm pretty sure Hickman didn't inherit the Atlantis / Wakanda fallout, but instead created it, and in fact wanted it. He was one of the 'architects' of AvX. He was the one 'architect' that had everyone scratching their heads, cause he wasn't an X-Men writer and he wasn't an Avengers writer -- but unknown to readership, he was the next Avengers writer. He was setting stuff up for the New Avengers run waaay back in his FF run, and he was doing the same in AvX. I would even say, Gillen was asked to put Namor on his run with the Extinction Team, specifically so Namor could trash Wakanda, so Hickman could create the conflict in New Avengers, that would lead to T'challa (like all the Illuminati, being deconstructed). It's the same contrivance that had T'challa or Shuri (something that was never revealed) suddenly hiding the Avengers in Wakanda, instead of telling them to take a hike, or putting them elsewhere. It's the same sort of contrivance that has T'challa hiding Thanos and the bombs in Wakanda.

Prior to AvX, Namor and T'Challa had always been allies with zero threat of war between their repective Kingdoms but all this changed in much the same way as T'Challa's relationship with Doom changed in the aftermath of Doomwar written by Jonathan Maberry. (which to be fair, had it's origins in the final issues of the Black Panther's solo book penned by Reginald Hudlin before Maberry took over.)

No, that's incorrect. Atlantis and Wakanda had actually gone to war previously, in Christopher Priest's Black Panther run. And they weren't allies any time before that, as they didn't get along, and had other confrontations, like the Kiber Island affair. It's only Reginald Hudlin, who completely disregarded previous continuity, who wrote them as allies and embarrassingly chummy during his run. And even in his / Mayberry's run, they tried to put Wakanda and Atlantis in conflict with that jumbled mess of the attempted assassination of T'challa and then Shuri and the Power arc.

Heading into Hickman's New Avengers, we now had a Namor portrayed wildly out of character surrounded by other well known and iconic Marvel maintays who over a period of time, were equally shown acting in extremely illogical manners at wild variance to their already well established respective canonical continuities within the 616 MU.

The combined intellectual genius of Reed, T'Challa, Stark and Strange (prior to the arrival of McCoy and Banner) were stumped by the Incursion threat and enigmatic obsfucation of the Black Swan and we the readers were presented with the specatacle of the Illuminati chasing shadows rather than reaching out to other powerful minds within the 616 MU for assistance.

And in the midst of all this, the conflict between Atlantis and Wakanda that began during AvX, was still raging unabated.

Because Hickman wanted it that way, to elevate the exterior and interior conflicts and, deconstruct the kings, and to show the futility of retribution, and how T'challa's ancestors were wrong.

I do have problems with some of Hickman's portrayal of Namor, and I think it's far too subtle and there's far too much left unsaid / unexplained, judging by some people's reactions. I also think his genius are written as anything but, to fit his plot.

Written in character, T'Challa would never have invited Namor into Wakanda under the existing circumtances and he certainly wouldn't have gone on to allow the building and stockpiling of WMD's within Wakanda's borders either but we're talking about a story that intrinsically has had to rely on PIS to move forward with all characters concerned (at least from the supposedly heroic side of the equation acting like morons.)

The saga was flawed right from the very beginning and to pretend otherwise is to engage in pointless folly.

So far, the only character that Jonathan Hickman has written properly in NA is this guy right here....

[DOOM]

Well, I'm going to have disagree with that also. At least, as it pertains to Namor and Doom's relationship. Doom lives for finding Namor in this exact situation, on the ropes, as that's when he wants to ally with Namor. And it's usually the only time Namor will ally with Doom. He did it in Namor Goes to Hell, he did it in Sub-Mariner Revolution, he did it in Super-Villain Team Up, he did it twice in Namor's own book, once when he had amnesia and once when he lost his gills -- all the way to their first team up in FF, after Namor had been defeated by the FF. And Doom is almost always Namor's second, if not last choice, and knows it -- see Sub-Mariner Revolution. Doom doesn't care, cause he would be figuring out some way to use Namor to make Thanos his pet.

But as for the other major players in this saga, he hasn't done a particularly good job of capturing the quintissential spark that makes each of them special.

At this point, I could care less who gets to kill who.

I just want this morbid tale to reach its conclusion.

I think Hickman has a good handle on the voices of characters and their personalities, but he's compromising the characters to make them fit his plot, and not bothering to show or explain things that would mitigate him doing so.

[Reviresco]

There's a reason he's SORT OF the leader of the group.

Illuminati doesn't have a real leader or anything... it's not a real team. But at times hes both the moral compass, and the voice of reason.

Which isn't to say he hasn't screwed up his fair share of times in this event as well... the Illuminati just wouldn't be the Illuminati if everything they do doesn't blow up in their faces. But I think Hickman overall writes a pretty descent T'Challa. If he were to get a Hickman solo book post New Avengers, I'd certainly be on board.

I'm not sure I agree entirely with that, but that's another far too long conversation.

[Mr MajestiK]

The Illuminati could never come to terms with the fact that their real leader was always Black Swan, and when they became of no further use to her, she found another group.

[Kasper Cole]

I'm not sure I agree entirely with that, but that's another far too long conversation.

Hickman outright said before a single issue of the series shipped that was the role T'Challa would play in the group.