Avengers/New Avengers: Time Runs Out (with spoilers)

[vitruvian]

T'Challa deserves credit for how he handled a lot of this event.

He wanted peace when Shuri and the rest of Wakanda understandable wanted war... and IMO that would have been the right call. He wanted to put his revenge against Namor on hold for the time being... and again that proved the right decision as Namor was essential in preventing the universe from being destroyed. Again, he made the right call... even if he himself didn't feel that way after the fact.

He lost it at the very end there (and really who wouldn't), but up to that point I think he deserves a lot of credit for keeping himself in check. And they all benefited from that.

Of course, his wanting peace would have been far more effective had he shared, even if only with Shuri, the actual reason he felt there were bigger fish to fry at that point in time...

[XPac]

Of course, his wanting peace would have been far more effective had he shared, even if only with Shuri, the actual reason he felt there were bigger fish to fry at that point in time...

Yeah, you can make a pretty good arguement that it was a mistake for T'Challa to keep all this from Shuri. I think it was T'Challa himself that warned the Illuminati day one that keeping secrets from friends and family would be a mistake.

As there was a version of the Illuminati with both Shuri and T'Challa on it, I do think T'Challa probably could have let her into their little club. The only potential problem would be whether or not Shuri was willing to work with Namor. If adding Shuri means removing Namor, the trade off might not be worth it since Namor proved to be pretty darn important.

It's of course possible that Shuri would be willing to do what T'Challa wasn't... but we'll never know. We KNOW Namor can do the deed, and that makes him sort of indispensible.

[Mahes]

Yeah, you can make a pretty good arguement that it was a mistake for T'Challa to keep all this from Shuri. I think it was T'Challa himself that warned the Illuminati day one that keeping secrets from friends and family would be a mistake.

As there was a version of the Illuminati with both Shuri and T'Challa on it, I do think T'Challa probably could have let her into their little club. The only potential problem would be whether or not Shuri was willing to work with Namor. If adding Shuri means removing Namor, the trade off might not be worth it since Namor proved to be pretty darn important.

It's of course possible that Shuri would be willing to do what T'Challa wasn't... but we'll never know. We KNOW Namor can do the deed, and that makes him sort of indispensible.

Fair points all around here. If Shuri knew about incursions then I'd think she'd be more inclined to accept the peace proposal. Working with Namor though? Too big of a stretch in my opinion. I do think she would have been willing to pull the trigger due to her being depicted as more traditionalist than T'Chall. Traditionalist meaning her actions seem to be more aligned with the past BP.

[Cmbmool]

Yeah, you can make a pretty good arguement that it was a mistake for T'Challa to keep all this from Shuri. I think it was T'Challa himself that warned the Illuminati day one that keeping secrets from friends and family would be a mistake.

As there was a version of the Illuminati with both Shuri and T'Challa on it, I do think T'Challa probably could have let her into their little club. The only potential problem would be whether or not Shuri was willing to work with Namor. If adding Shuri means removing Namor, the trade off might not be worth it since Namor proved to be pretty darn important.

It's of course possible that Shuri would be willing to do what T'Challa wasn't... but we'll never know. We KNOW Namor can do the deed, and that makes him sort of indispensible.

How Ironic it is for T'Challa to speak of words like that when he can't even follow his own advice.

[XPac]

How Ironic it is for T'Challa to speak of words like that when he can't even follow his own advice.

That's what makes it ironic I suppose.

But really, that seems to be an issue with the Illuminati in general. They do things they NORMALLY might not agree with because the feel the situation warrents it. And they try to do it when no one is looking in the shadows, because they KNOW on some level it will at least be perceived as wrong by their peers.

[Trident]

Namor is a king, so by definition he is a prick and a scumbag at bestt. Namor is not a hero he is a man with responsibilities and duties and can't afford the luxury of heroism.

Unlike most of the Heroes he is not a hypocrite about it

So that's why we've got Superior (i.e. evil) Tony in his newest ongoing?

Namor is an anti-hero to most readers, and a hero to his own people, so 95% of the time he's on the heroic side, if written in character. The unpredictable side of Namor is a result of his inner conflicts, torn between two cultures, and torn between his responsibilities and his desires.

This probably the most factual thing said about Namor in the last few pages.

SMH

Edit:

It's also sad that a fan base is using exciting news about their fav character to once again work up another fan base for personal enjoyment.

[Trident]

It's not an assumption, it's my interpretation of the story. You can disagree with it, but there's evidence in the story for it, so at this point, I wouldn't say it's incorrect.




Yes, that's the in story cause for T'challa's threat, but that's not what was I talking about. I was responding to the idea put forth by others that T'challa's threat is supposed to be foreshadowing of him literally keeping that promise. And thus the story calls for Namor death. I disagree, because it's the exact same thing T'challa's ancestors want made good on, and we're shown that they are wrong. We're shown repeatedly that revenge doesn't end well and is not the answer.




I'm pretty sure Hickman didn't inherit the Atlantis / Wakanda fallout, but instead created it, and in fact wanted it. He was one of the 'architects' of AvX. He was the one 'architect' that had everyone scratching their heads, cause he wasn't an X-Men writer and he wasn't an Avengers writer -- but unknown to readership, he was the next Avengers writer. He was setting stuff up for the New Avengers run waaay back in his FF run, and he was doing the same in AvX. I would even say, Gillen was asked to put Namor on his run with the Extinction Team, specifically so Namor could trash Wakanda, so Hickman could create the conflict in New Avengers, that would lead to T'challa (like all the Illuminati, being deconstructed). It's the same contrivance that had T'challa or Shuri (something that was never revealed) suddenly hiding the Avengers in Wakanda, instead of telling them to take a hike, or putting them elsewhere. It's the same sort of contrivance that has T'challa hiding Thanos and the bombs in Wakanda.





No, that's incorrect. Atlantis and Wakanda had actually gone to war previously, in Christopher Priest's Black Panther run. And they weren't allies any time before that, as they didn't get along, and had other confrontations, like the Kiber Island affair. It's only Reginald Hudlin, who completely disregarded previous continuity, who wrote them as allies and embarrassingly chummy during his run. And even in his / Mayberry's run, they tried to put Wakanda and Atlantis in conflict with that jumbled mess of the attempted assassination of T'challa and then Shuri and the Power arc.




Because Hickman wanted it that way, to elevate the exterior and interior conflicts and, deconstruct the kings, and to show the futility of retribution, and how T'challa's ancestors were wrong.

I do have problems with some of Hickman's portrayal of Namor, and I think it's far too subtle and there's far too much left unsaid / unexplained, judging by some people's reactions. I also think his genius are written as anything but, to fit his plot.




Well, I'm going to have disagree with that also. At least, as it pertains to Namor and Doom's relationship. Doom lives for finding Namor in this exact situation, on the ropes, as that's when he wants to ally with Namor. And it's usually the only time Namor will ally with Doom. He did it in Namor Goes to Hell, he did it in Sub-Mariner Revolution, he did it in Super-Villain Team Up, he did it twice in Namor's own book, once when he had amnesia and once when he lost his gills -- all the way to their first team up in FF, after Namor had been defeated by the FF. And Doom is almost always Namor's second, if not last choice, and knows it -- see Sub-Mariner Revolution. Doom doesn't care, cause he would be figuring out some way to use Namor to make Thanos his pet.






I think Hickman has a good handle on the voices of characters and their personalities, but he's compromising the characters to make them fit his plot, and not bothering to show or explain things that would mitigate him doing so.

Wow!

People should save this post because it is dead on about everything.

Well done, sir. Well done!

[UltimateTy]

They showed this Ribic cover on TV



Will Thanos be working with the heroes?

[Reviresco]

They showed this Ribic cover on TV



Will Thanos be working with the heroes?

He's sort of been working with the heroes since Namor formed the Cabal.


And if this cover is accurate, which of course, they haven't always been, then this lends more credence to my interpretation of Hickman's story, since Namor's looking very much alive there.

[MouserGrey]

I still say it all ends no matter what they do. No on is right, no one is wrong. The end is inevitable and only the key elements of each character carries through.

[brainwasher]

They showed this Ribic cover on TV

And there are X–Men and FF on it!

[PlanetaryDevastation]

They showed this Ribic cover on TV



Will Thanos be working with the heroes?

I'm looking forward to it but it looks like a story that it's soo big that it falls apart under it on weight. But I suppose they did make the original Secret Wars work.

[Moose100]

But what about the Living Tribunal???



Isnt this like the BIGGEST clue?

[robreedwrites]

But what about the Living Tribunal???



Isnt this like the BIGGEST clue?

Honestly, I think that was just Hickman showing that the multiverse collapsing. Other than a power display for Rabum Alal, I don't know that it's going to give us too much.

[Moose100]

I hear u but the LT is a BFD especially with these types of stories