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  1. #1
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Default How much did Scarlet Witch's exposure to the DC Universe's "chaos magic" influence her?

    I remember reading somewhere long ago that the Scarlet Witch's drastic change of character and great expansion of her abilities in HOUSE OF M and beyond were at least partially the consequence of her coming into contact with the DC Universe's much wilder chaos magic during the JLA/AVENGERS crossover. To what extent is this true? Does one of the most consequential Marvel story lines of the past decade trace its origins to the last crossover with the DC Universe?

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  2. #2
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Since Marvel doesn't really acknowledge cross overs (like DC does), honestly I don't think really is a factor at all.

    Though it easily COULD have been in theory, given that it clearly effected her powers in addition to opening up some old emotional wounds with her children.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member Moriarty's Avatar
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    its an interesting theory, and certainly plausible...but as XPac said Marvel doesn't acknowledge those old crossovers. and i highly doubt they would retcon something as big as House of M having its roots in JLA/Avengers.

  4. #4
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    This is 100% a fan theory. It will never become canon because, as others have said, Marvel doesn't refer to inter-company crossovers. (Kurt Busiek did refer to JLA/Avengers in a Justice League story, but he couldn't acknowledge that the Marvel Universe exists; we're just told that the JLA beat Krona "with some help.") It's a fun theory because it does explain her otherwise inexplicable power boost in Avengers: Disassembled later that year, but it can't be more than a fan theory.

    As to whether Avengers: Disassembled intentionally grew out of JLA/Avengers - I strongly doubt it. She is given to sudden power boosts after all, and Disassembled's original definition of her powers was that they were not based in "chaos magic" but an inherent, untapped ability to alter all of reality itself. (And this comes from a stray reference in Byrne's West Coast Avengers which suggested that her power to alter probability could actually be a power to alter all of time.) So like I said, it's fanon.
    Last edited by gurkle; 09-17-2014 at 12:44 PM.

  5. #5
    Time for Dissection FlashingSabre's Avatar
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    I pretend it influenced her. Gotta find some way to plug up the Bendis plot canyons.
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  6. #6
    Fan of marvel Evan's Avatar
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    That's the reason she went nuts but Marvel can't mention it. So instead say Dr Doom manipulated her (why? he's in love with her? rubbish story).
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  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Ken Ashcroft's Avatar
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    Kurt Busiek will mention it as soon as he's back working for Marvel.

  8. #8
    Full sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I remember reading somewhere long ago that the Scarlet Witch's drastic change of character and great expansion of her abilities in HOUSE OF M and beyond were at least partially the consequence of her coming into contact with the DC Universe's much wilder chaos magic during the JLA/AVENGERS crossover. To what extent is this true? Does one of the most consequential Marvel story lines of the past decade trace its origins to the last crossover with the DC Universe?

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Oh, man! I full wish this was the official explaination rather than the rubbish we've been given. This actually makes sense.
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  9. #9
    Spectacular Member Qwathings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Since Marvel doesn't really acknowledge cross overs (like DC does), honestly I don't think really is a factor at all.

    Though it easily COULD have been in theory, given that it clearly effected her powers in addition to opening up some old emotional wounds with her children.
    Marvel did acknowledge the crossover in at least one issue of the Handbook of the Marvel Universe that came out after the crossover. Grandmaster's entry mentions events from the crossover in his history.

  10. #10
    Spectacular Member Qwathings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I remember reading somewhere long ago that the Scarlet Witch's drastic change of character and great expansion of her abilities in HOUSE OF M and beyond were at least partially the consequence of her coming into contact with the DC Universe's much wilder chaos magic during the JLA/AVENGERS crossover. To what extent is this true? Does one of the most consequential Marvel story lines of the past decade trace its origins to the last crossover with the DC Universe?

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    That would make sense, except in 'Avengers: Disassembled' it was stated that chaos magic doesn't exist (which I think was a terrible idea). Within the confines of that story, and without retcons, chaos magic can't be used as an excuse.

    Fortunately, 'Young Avengers: The Children's Crusade' revealed that Wanda went crazy when she and Dr. Doom worked together to harness a mystical force known as the 'life force.' As a nexus being, a focal point for earth's mystical energy, Wanda was able to channel such vast energy. She had hoped to use it to bring back her children, but it instead proved to be too much for her mind to handle and drove her insane.

    'Children's Crusade' was an excellent story, and it did much to undo some of the damage done by 'Disassembled.'

  11. #11
    Mighty Member norj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwathings View Post
    That would make sense, except in 'Avengers: Disassembled' it was stated that chaos magic doesn't exist (which I think was a terrible idea). Within the confines of that story, and without retcons, chaos magic can't be used as an excuse.

    Fortunately, 'Young Avengers: The Children's Crusade' revealed that Wanda went crazy when she and Dr. Doom worked together to harness a mystical force known as the 'life force.' As a nexus being, a focal point for earth's mystical energy, Wanda was able to channel such vast energy. She had hoped to use it to bring back her children, but it instead proved to be too much for her mind to handle and drove her insane.

    'Children's Crusade' was an excellent story, and it did much to undo some of the damage done by 'Disassembled.'
    In Mighty Avengers Chthon stated that Chaos magic exists and that Dr. Strange was lying.

  12. #12
    Sun of the Mourning Montressor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashingSabre View Post
    I pretend it influenced her. Gotta find some way to plug up the Bendis plot canyons.
    This is exactly what I do. As far as I'm concerned these crossovers--the ones that actually involve the crossing over of the universes, not the alternate realities where DC and Marvel seem to exist in the same reality, like Superman/Spider Man, for example--all happened, regardless of the reboots at DC. It's just the very nature of the multi/omniverse itself.

    Agreed that this is 100% fan speculation, as Marvel will never acknowledge it, but it works for me and is a great explanation for Wanda's problems.
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  13. #13
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwathings View Post
    That would make sense, except in 'Avengers: Disassembled' it was stated that chaos magic doesn't exist (which I think was a terrible idea). Within the confines of that story, and without retcons, chaos magic can't be used as an excuse.

    Fortunately, 'Young Avengers: The Children's Crusade' revealed that Wanda went crazy when she and Dr. Doom worked together to harness a mystical force known as the 'life force.' As a nexus being, a focal point for earth's mystical energy, Wanda was able to channel such vast energy. She had hoped to use it to bring back her children, but it instead proved to be too much for her mind to handle and drove her insane.

    'Children's Crusade' was an excellent story, and it did much to undo some of the damage done by 'Disassembled.'
    Are we going to accept that there is no such thing as Chaos Magic. If that is the case, what has all the talk been about up to that time Dr Strange discounted it? It would then have to be understood that Wanda Maximoff had to be using some other power, in that case, do we accept John Byrnes claim that Wanda can change time? To me, Wanda seems to be able to change reality by altering the conditions of the MU to reflect a different authority in power as in HoM. If Wanda is a reality warper, then what we first saw as changing the outcome of a gun firing, to not firing, was her altering reality in that instance. If she expanded that reality warping around a greater area, she could convince enemies they don't need to attack, and they walk away. Expanding that even further, Wanda could have altered Reality so the Apoc Twins were made to forget their plans about the earth and mutants, instead of a time machine being used.

    If The scarlet Witch was a reality warper, then she should start to use that aspect of her ability more and more. Like AIM can encircle a group of Avengers with a time bubble, and extract one team and leave another.

  14. #14
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    I love the idea, but until Disney buys the WB it's probably going to have to go on the backburner.

  15. #15
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    If Chaos Magic doesn't exist, then what was going on in JLA/Avengers (which I personally consider canon)?

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