Characterization in Uncanny Avengers

[AcesX1X]

where is scarlet's "lesson?" why is she the only mutant in this title who hasn't been maimed or mutilated in some way yet?

[sprior93]

Yes, Rogue is learning a tough lesson of a murder that never happened that she apparently deserves. Yet again, Rogue is dealing on page with her actions (even not actual actions) like she always does. So where is Wanda taking ownership of the very real Decimation? Nope, that wasn't her it was Doom. Poor Wanda! Gah, evil Rogue and her bad feels for St. Wanda who never hurt anyone.

@Spior93 there is an Appreciation Page for only positive comments. The review threads are where we can state our opinions of said issues.

Yeah, but it kinda did happen......the timeline getting reset doesn't change the fact that Rogue killed Wanda. The characters mention it several times in this issue, so that should be evidence enough. Also, your passive aggressiveness towards a fictional character('St. Wanda') is a little weird. Regarding my 'why are you even here?' comment, I really meant 'why are you reading this book if you don't like it?'.

where is scarlet's "lesson?" why is she the only mutant in this title who hasn't been maimed or mutilated in some way yet?

Umm, are we reading the same book?

[Haquim]

Well when they draw the Scarlet Witch with short blonde hair and sporting a fugly costume lets see how happy you are. The character design is part of the character. UA's creators and the Avenger editors continue to prove they don't know who the X-Men are or what made them loved by so many fans. But hey at least Wanda is redeemed by whitewashing her crimes against mutants as not her fault but Rogue fake killing Wanda was the most evil think since Stalin. LOL!

Newsflash: I would NOT care (as long as the stories are good, of course). AND I think children crusade was bad for giving Wanda the easy way out. ALSO Rogue DID NOT "fake-kill" Wanda, she killed her with intent, the fact they were both resurrected thanks to a temporal paradox does not change what she did. Do I care? Not really, as long as this contributes to Rogue and Wanda growing as characters and allows for new and interesting stories. And I EXPECT Rogue to be contrite about what she did. BECAUSE I THINK SHE IS A GOOD PERSON AT HEART! And a good person would be ashamed of aptempted murder even if she wasn't completely herself. Murderoous psycopaths enjoy killing, zealous hypocrites feel no remorse. Rougue is not that kind of character and showing her remorse was being true to her character. YET people complain even about that!!!

As far as Wanda goes I personally love to think Doom did the gallant thing and took her sins upon himself (although that's a very remote possibility, considering the current state of affairs at Marvel).

All this doesn't change the fact I enjoy reading about flawed characters (it's what made Marvel #1), and I like to talk about comics. I can bitch about a mischaracterization, and I do (I can write terrible things about the way Bendis and Loeb work for example), but as far as Rogue goes I don't think she's been mischaracterized that much. Certainly remeder likes to portray her nearer to her roots, but IF ONE IS OBJECTIVE he'll find out how Rogue had a lot of face time during this whole run and was often decisive (one way or the other) for the development of the story. Yet some people can only complain. Seriously every single issue no matter what happened, they complained. And at this point it's easy to conclude they just hate the idea of the unity squad and want the X-men in their little corner of the universe (and then when the inevitable event happens they will complain about the Avengers not helping).

Look at Havok's message (and Remeder's through him) it meant "No matter how different our genetic make up, when all is said and done we are all basically human" and so many people chose to understand he hated being a mutant, and he "rejected his heritage", he was "an uncle tom" an so on... These kind of reactions to what to me was a positive message were quite revealing. I don't want to think people like to think a race is better than another, so I hope it's just about comic book fans being their usual unreasonable self.

EDIT: fun fact, without wonderman inside her Rogue could not have saved the day in this issue (yes, she saved Wanda and Alex, but to hear some posters here talk the poor dear was just mistreated by that bad guy Remeder), that showed how powerful and useful this status change could be for her. Last issue there was a ruckus about Rogue new status not being immediately resolved by Remeder...

[jen]

Yeah, but it kinda did happen......the timeline getting reset doesn't change the fact that Rogue killed Wanda. The characters mention it several times in this issue, so that should be evidence enough. Also, your passive aggressiveness towards a fictional character('St. Wanda') is a little weird. In regards to my 'why are you even here?' comment, I really meant 'why are you reading this book if you don't like it?'.

AND Rogue is taking responsibility. She saved the world and is crippled and guilted for it. But Wanda is a saint who is absolved of Decimation. LOL!!

Not everyone is going to agree that an issue is great. It is okay and perfectly reasonable to point out things that make no sense. And passive aggressive? No, I am merely funny and pointing out truth.

[Sardorim]

She wasn't protecting mutants, quite the opposite actually. Rogue's resentment and hatred blinded her, and caused her to stab and kill a teammate. She sorely needed a lesson in letting go of petty grudges.

As for Wonderman being trapped in Rogue's body? Yes, it's a bummer, but you know what? Rogue is a superhero, she's supposed to go through trials and tribulations. Did you expect her to float on by completely unscathed?

Scarlet Witch needed to die, Rogue's own failing was that she didn't stab and make sure Wanda was dead before she finished her spell and thus left Earth to be destroyed as the Apoc Twins only cared about Earth for as long as there were Mutants still there. No Mutants? They have no reason to care if the Celestial blows it up.

[jen]

Newsflash: I would NOT care (as long as the stories are good, of course). AND I think children crusade was bad for giving Wanda the easy way out. ALSO Rogue DID NOT "fake-kill" Wanda, she killed her with intent, the fact they were both resurrected thanks to a temporal paradox soes not change what she did. Do I care? Not really, as long as this contributes to Rogue and Wanda growing as characters and allows for new and interesting stories.
As far as Wanda goes Ipersonally love to think Doom did the gallant thing and took her sins upon himself (although that's a very remote possibility, considering the current state of affairs at Marvel).

Again, it didn't happen to THIS Rogue and THIS Wanda. It happened in an AU for them. BUT, Rogue IS taking responsibility for it like she has for every little thing in UA. She was benched for saving the team in UA 5. She is humbled and trying to make amends for the never happened killing. She was altered for trying to save the world from Exitar. She takes a lot of licks.

But it was never Rogue that needed to be redeemed. She was already redeemed. Remender needed to put his focus on Wanda. HE decided the way to fix Wanda was to take Rogue from the X-Men and make her mean to Wanda. Thus Wanda is redeemed because of bitch Rogue busting her chops. This is the complaint and has always been the complaint.

Characters being flawed is great. Wanda in a redemption story would be fantastic. But that is not the story in UA. To Remender, Wanda is redeemed because Rogue gives her an hard time.

EDIT: No Remender is NOT portraying Rogue closer to her roots. As early as her first issues of X-Men back in 1981, she was always funny, sarcastic and adorable even when taking her lumps. This character is closer to Evolution Rogue.

[Haquim]

Again, it didn't happen to THIS Rogue and THIS Wanda. It happened in an AU for them. BUT, Rogue IS taking responsibility for it like she has for every little thing in UA. She was benched for saving the team in UA 5. She is humbled and trying to make amends for the never happened killing. She was altered for trying to save the world from Exitar. She takes a lot of licks.

But it was never Rogue that needed to be redeemed. She was already redeemed. Remender needed to put his focus on Wanda. HE decided the way to fix Wanda was to take Rogue from the X-Men and make her mean to Wanda. Thus Wanda is redeemed because of bitch Rogue busting her chops. This is the complaint and has always been the complaint.

Characters being flawed is great. Wanda in a redemption story would be fantastic. But that is not the story in UA. To Remender, Wanda is redeemed because Rogue gives her an hard time.

EDIT: No Remender is NOT portraying Rogue closer to her roots. As early as her first issues of X-Men back in 1981, she was always funny, sarcastic and adorable even when taking her lumps. This character is closer to Evolution Rogue.

She REMEBERS WHAT SHE DID, and she's not happy about that BECAUSE SHE'S A GOOD PERSON and good people don't enjoy killing, they feel remorse for it, EXPECIALLY HEROES! I like Rogue and I expect her to feel remorse for murder or even attempted murder. If she did not take responsability for what she did I would find it extremely out of character and an example of bad characterization and villainization. Fortunately Remeder is not doing that.

P.S.

I edited my previous post with more on this argument.

EDIT: From the beginning (like from ISSUE ONE) Remeder estabilished Rogue felt terrible about Xavier's death and partially blamed Wanda for it, she also did not consider her worthy of Xavier's legacy (all understandable sentiments, given the previous events they had been involved with). That's why Rogue chose to "give Wanda an hard time" and there was good reason for her to act that way. Remeder did not make Wanda seem like a saint at all. Wanda did some pretty terrible mistakes during last arc for example (going along with the twins plan even though it was so risky?) and paid for it dearly. Wanda is portrayed by Remeder as more insecure than Rogue and as someone who needs a man and is less independent than Rogue, for example. Point is you should try to be fair with all the characters in the book not just over-emphasize whatever happens to the one you like the most.

[jen]

She REMEBERS WHAT SHE DID, and she's not happy about that BECAUSE SHE'S A GOOD PERSON and good people don't enjoy killing, they feel remorse for it, EXPECIALLY HEROES! I like Rogue and I expect her to feel remorse for murder or even attempted murder. If she did not take responsability for what she did I would find it extremely out of character and an example of bad characterization and villainization. Fortunately Remeder is not doing that.

P.S.

I edited my previous post with more on this argument.

I don't have any issues with Rogue dealing with her mistakes and faults. She is THE character that does. It's why we Rogue fans love her. I do not like Remender saying the Wanda is LOVE and completely innocent because Rogue is so mean. For X-Men fans, making Rogue mean to Wanda is not the same as Wanda taking ownership of Decimation.

[Mikekerr3]

She wasn't protecting mutants, quite the opposite actually. Rogue's resentment and hatred blinded her, and caused her to stab and kill a teammate. She sorely needed a lesson in letting go of petty grudges.

Being upset over genocide is not a "petty grudge'. neither is being upset at Wanda's mass murders

Wanda was in the middle of attacking the whole mutant population when Rogue killed her. She was going to use all the mutants including the kids as unwilling cannon fodder not giving a damn how many she killed in the process.

[Haquim]

I don't have any issues with Rogue dealing with her mistakes and faults. She is THE character that does. It's why we Rogue fans love her. I do not like Remender saying the Wanda is LOVE and completely innocent because Rogue is so mean. For X-Men fans, making Rogue mean to Wanda is not the same as Wanda taking ownership of Decimation.

By that logic you should conclude Remeder is portraying Rogue correctly and characterizing Wanda as shallow and unable to take responsability for her actions (or ready to shift the blame as soon as the chance presents itself).

[jen]

By that logic you should conclude Remeder is portraying Rogue correctly and characterizing Wanda as shallow and unable to take responsability for her actions (or to shift the blame as soon as the chance presents itself).

He IS writing this. But that is NOT what he means to be doing.

He means to show that Wanda is not responsible for Decimation and Rogue is ugly, mean and has a lot of growing and learning from Wanda to do. That is why Wanda constantly has her hands on her and get 3 pages to and talk at her while Rogue looks down in guilt.

[Haquim]

He IS writing this. But that is NOT what he means to be doing.

He means to show that Wanda is not responsible and Rogue is ugly, mean and has a lot of growing and learning from Wanda to do. That is why Wanda constantly has her hands on her and get 3 pages to and talk at her while Rogue looks down in guilt.

Yeah, he clearly hates Rogue. That's why she saved the day and had more panel time than anyone else this issue. PURE HATE, man.

[dragonmp93]

Yeah, he clearly hates Rogue. That's why she saved the day and had more panel time than anyone else this issue. PURE HATE, man.

Well, Bendis hates the JGS and they have more or less as much panel time as Cyclops in Uncanny X-men; so yes, he really hates her.

[jen]

Yeah, he clearly hates Rogue. That's why she saved the day and had more panel time than anyone else this issue. PURE HATE, man.

I dunno know if he hates Rogue. His Rogue feels like a plot device. She seems to save the day but every time after in the next issue she gets humiliated. So we will see.

[Punisher007]

So Remender basically having Rogue go through the same character arc that she already did decades ago, and flat-out ignoring how she was being characterized in pretty much every other book because his premise wouldn't work otherwise, counts as "progressing" her. No, that's a regression. Been there, done that, not interesting in the slightest. Oh and the "Charles's death made me do it" excuse doesn't work either since:

1. She wasn't acting this way in ANY other book.
2. Wanda had NOTHING to do with Xavier's death.

It would have made much more sense if she were po'ed at Cyclops. Sorry, but I'm not buying that excuse at all.