Surprisingly dark moments in pre-Crisis DC

[cgh]

The New Teen Titans had some great ones, like when Trigon slowly melted that kid in front of her mom. I haven't seen much to rival that in the New 52, to be honest.

Or how about the Swamp Thing story "The Man Who Would Not Die", featuring people being pulled limb from limb and other unpleasantries:

[Buried Alien]

Some of the dark turns in the late '70s and early '80s had me grousing. I tend to associate Paul Levitz with these as he was either editor or writer on a lot of them. Things like little Arthur being killed off or Jonathan Ross/Pete Ross turning against Superman. To me these were cheap tricks to goose interest in the books at the expense of long range characer development.

You know, a writer could put in the effort to develop characters and plots to build to a payoff--as with Ferro Lad in the Legion by Jim Shooter or Terra in the Titans by Marv Wolfman and George Perez. Or a writer could just pull some cheap stunt out of his ass to stir up contoversy as with killing off Iris and little Arthur.

In hindsight, Speedy turning into a junky was one of those cheap stunts, although done very nicely with Adams and Giordano artwork and a lovely if haunting cover for GREEN LANTERN 86. What other writers did with that turn, by putting in the time to develop Roy as a character and show how his addiction motivated his character to aid others--that was all the good stuff and what I want to see from writers. But the needle in the arm and that exploitive cover for GL 85--for shock value--that was a cheap stunt.

I do think Levitz has some fascination with death. These are unsubstantiated rumors, but I read that he was the main proponent of the Jason Todd death phone stunt, and during the late 1990s or early 2000s, declared that Barry Allen would remain dead as long as he (Levitz) remained employed by DC Comics and would be resurrected only over his (Levitz's) dead body.

I don't know for a fact if Levitz ever did or said any of those things (just Internet rumors), but since I came across them, I've associated his name with the death of characters (and a stubborn refusal to allow them to live again).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[AlexanderLuthor]

There are lots of dark elements in classic comics--I don't know why people ever got the idea that there weren't. Bad press? My favourite comic book ever created, DETECTIVE COMICS 361 (March '67), which among other things features a ruthless Stasi agent named the Butcher, has a dark turn in the plot that I can't tell you about without ruining the story.

It's just one of those things people parrot mindlessly as a criticism that has no basis in fact. Comics today are certainly no darker than they were from the late 70s into the early 80s and the period from around 89 to the mid 90s Image. One thing those eras tend to have in common is a bad economy (if you want to link with societal dynamics). And yes, I also trace a lot of it to Levitz and, as much as I love what he did for the character, Denny O'Neil. The darker turn in Batman that later gave us TDKR and Year One really began under O'Neil's leadership in the 70s. I think people mistake the movie versions during those two eras (Christopher Reeve Supes and Michael Keaton Bats) with what was going on the comic books that was many shades darker. Now, everyone carry on bashing the New 52 as dark

[Chris Lang]

It's just one of those things people parrot mindlessly as a criticism that has no basis in fact. Comics today are certainly no darker than they were from the late 70s into the early 80s and the period from around 89 to the mid 90s Image. One thing those eras tend to have in common is a bad economy (if you want to link with societal dynamics). And yes, I also trace a lot of it to Levitz and, as much as I love what he did for the character, Denny O'Neil. The darker turn in Batman that later gave us TDKR and Year One really began under O'Neil's leadership in the 70s. I think people mistake the movie versions during those two eras (Christopher Reeve Supes and Michael Keaton Bats) with what was going on the comic books that was many shades darker. Now, everyone carry on bashing the New 52 as dark

The problem is, the most extreme dark was the EXCEPTION back then rather than the rule, as it is today. These days, DC comics are dark, cynical, bleak, hopeless, and just as depressing as a news program (or their sponsors, the prescription drug ads that list all sorts of nasty side effects that make the original affliction seem not so bad by comparison). They're also a lot more pretentious than they were back in 1982 or before, trying to make it seem like they're 'mature' when really they're more like a junior high school student's idea of 'mature'.

Identity Crisis and its spiritual successor Cry for Justice have rape for the sake of rape (and I'm not making this up -- according to ex-staffers, there was an order from higher up that 'we need a rape'), violence purely for the sake of violence, and longtime characters being killed pointlessly or turned into hopeless messes purely for shock value. The world the DC heroes live in has become a dark, grim, moody place that isn't at all about escapism or even much hope.

Really, was Superman MEANT to live in a bleak, cynical, depressing world that does not really have any hope?

The point is, yes, pre-Crisis DC DID have darkness. But while they DID do dark, they did NOT do bleak. Stories back then were, on the whole, idealistic. While not EVERYTHING had an easy answer, the characters still were principled people who stood up for what was right, and there was a sense of right and wrong. Good triumphed over evil in the end. We turned to superheroes to escape from the cynicism and hopelessness given to us on the news.

Back then, there seemed like there was enough optimism, hope, and lighter stuff to more than balance out the darker stuff. And the dark stuff, in many cases, was handled a lot better than almost anything that's come from Identity Crisis and all the 'events' since then.

[Buried Alien]

The problem is, the most extreme dark was the EXCEPTION back then rather than the rule, as it is today. These days, DC comics are dark, cynical, bleak, hopeless, and just as depressing as a news program (or their sponsors, the prescription drug ads that list all sorts of nasty side effects that make the original affliction seem not so bad by comparison). They're also a lot more pretentious than they were back in 1982 or before, trying to make it seem like they're 'mature' when really they're more like a junior high school student's idea of 'mature'.

Identity Crisis and its spiritual successor Cry for Justice have rape for the sake of rape (and I'm not making this up -- according to ex-staffers, there was an order from higher up that 'we need a rape'), violence purely for the sake of violence, and longtime characters being killed pointlessly or turned into hopeless messes purely for shock value. The world the DC heroes live in has become a dark, grim, moody place that isn't at all about escapism or even much hope.

Really, was Superman MEANT to live in a bleak, cynical, depressing world that does not really have any hope?

The point is, yes, pre-Crisis DC DID have darkness. But while they DID do dark, they did NOT do bleak. Stories back then were, on the whole, idealistic. While not EVERYTHING had an easy answer, the characters still were principled people who stood up for what was right, and there was a sense of right and wrong. Good triumphed over evil in the end. We turned to superheroes to escape from the cynicism and hopelessness given to us on the news.

Back then, there seemed like there was enough optimism, hope, and lighter stuff to more than balance out the darker stuff. And the dark stuff, in many cases, was handled a lot better than almost anything that's come from Identity Crisis and all the 'events' since then.

I think one of the differences between then and now is that then, stories were actually allowed to come to an END. Stories would end, and subsequent stories might acknowledge previous stories, but not be a continuation of them, so characters were allowed to have their triumphant moment before moving on to the next adventure. These days, with events and extended story arcs that run into each other with nary a clear narrative demarcation, the heroes never get a chance to celebrate their "victories." There's hardly a moment to breathe before the next menace arrives. Every ending is a cliffhanger or lead-in to a bigger event, and we never really get any closure to any story.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[AlexanderLuthor]

The problem is, the most extreme dark was the EXCEPTION back then rather than the rule, as it is today. These days, DC comics are dark, cynical, bleak, hopeless, and just as depressing as a news program (or their sponsors, the prescription drug ads that list all sorts of nasty side effects that make the original affliction seem not so bad by comparison). They're also a lot more pretentious than they were back in 1982 or before, trying to make it seem like they're 'mature' when really they're more like a junior high school student's idea of 'mature'.

Identity Crisis and its spiritual successor Cry for Justice have rape for the sake of rape (and I'm not making this up -- according to ex-staffers, there was an order from higher up that 'we need a rape'), violence purely for the sake of violence, and longtime characters being killed pointlessly or turned into hopeless messes purely for shock value. The world the DC heroes live in has become a dark, grim, moody place that isn't at all about escapism or even much hope.

Really, was Superman MEANT to live in a bleak, cynical, depressing world that does not really have any hope?

The point is, yes, pre-Crisis DC DID have darkness. But while they DID do dark, they did NOT do bleak. Stories back then were, on the whole, idealistic. While not EVERYTHING had an easy answer, the characters still were principled people who stood up for what was right, and there was a sense of right and wrong. Good triumphed over evil in the end. We turned to superheroes to escape from the cynicism and hopelessness given to us on the news.

Back then, there seemed like there was enough optimism, hope, and lighter stuff to more than balance out the darker stuff. And the dark stuff, in many cases, was handled a lot better than almost anything that's come from Identity Crisis and all the 'events' since then.

Yeah, I'm just going to have to disagree. More accurately, comics just reflect society at the time they are written. Having started reading in the 70s (and having read a lot of what came before), the 40s and 50s comics were obsessed by war and tinged with racism, the 50s and early 60s were laced with sexism, the late 60s had a sort of feel good, psychodelic vibe (I think that this is the era point to for "light" comics), the 70s got super dark at times and the 80s took it even further. Hell, Frank Miller started the rape in comics thing long before Identity Crisis. I don't find the comics now any more bleak or dark than those of the 90s which reveled in gore and non-stop fights. There are plenty of comics DC publishes that are not bleak or dark - I would say Batman, for instance, is no bleaker or darker than it was in 1986. Same with Superman. Just as an example - In Superman's Pal Lois Lane #25 (1961) Lois and Clark get married in a What If? and Clark, fearing for her safety, locks Lois up in the Fortress of Solitude and won't let her her out. It's true imprisonment - she is sobbing and pleading with him and he is yelling at her and won't let her go. That's some creepy stuff. The 80's featured a Robin getting beaten to death with a crowbar and a young girl getting crippled. And so on, if you think it's darker now its just a reflection of the times, but I don't see it

[Pinsir]

Was it this?

Jesus Christ what id going on here?

[resipsaloquitur]

Jesus Christ what id going on here?

Long answer: an environmental activist named Isaac was protesting something at Ferris Aircraft. A bunch of Ferris workers didn't like his protests, strung him up, and he baked to death in the sun. (Hal and Ollie couldn't do anything because they were ALSO strung up, and somebody took Hal's ring.) The portrayal of Isaac's death was so ripe with symbolism, it couldn't have been more obvious if Denny O'Neil came over to your house and forced you to watch Passion of the Christ.

Short answer: Ferris killed Jesus.

[golgi]

Yeah, I'm just going to have to disagree. More accurately, comics just reflect society at the time they are written. Having started reading in the 70s (and having read a lot of what came before), the 40s and 50s comics were obsessed by war and tinged with racism, the 50s and early 60s were laced with sexism, the late 60s had a sort of feel good, psychodelic vibe (I think that this is the era point to for "light" comics), the 70s got super dark at times and the 80s took it even further. Hell, Frank Miller started the rape in comics thing long before Identity Crisis. I don't find the comics now any more bleak or dark than those of the 90s which reveled in gore and non-stop fights. There are plenty of comics DC publishes that are not bleak or dark - I would say Batman, for instance, is no bleaker or darker than it was in 1986. Same with Superman. Just as an example - In Superman's Pal Lois Lane #25 (1961) Lois and Clark get married in a What If? and Clark, fearing for her safety, locks Lois up in the Fortress of Solitude and won't let her her out. It's true imprisonment - she is sobbing and pleading with him and he is yelling at her and won't let her go. That's some creepy stuff. The 80's featured a Robin getting beaten to death with a crowbar and a young girl getting crippled. And so on, if you think it's darker now its just a reflection of the times, but I don't see it

Agree 100%.

[Montressor]

I came into the death of Iris Allen long after the fact--Barry had started dating Fiona by the time I became a regular reader--but it always impressed me that DC put Barry through such a traumatic ordeal. I've said in past posts (before the purge) that Eobard Thawne was one of FEW villains--between both DC and Marvel--that posed a serious threat, a villain that actually made me worry with each turn of the page. He's the first that comes to mind when I think of actual villainous villains, and the death of Iris set the entire thing off. A very dark moment, pre-Crisis.

And pretty much ALL of Moore's Swamp Thing, including the memorable Crisis crossover issue and his battles with a 'pre/post Crisis Luthor and Batman...the entire 'American Gothic' was far from the norm for DC, before Crisis and Vertigo.

[Kuwagaton]

I think Comet was pretty dark.

[fmvgamer]

I came into the death of Iris Allen long after the fact--Barry had started dating Fiona by the time I became a regular reader--but it always impressed me that DC put Barry through such a traumatic ordeal. I've said in past posts (before the purge) that Eobard Thawne was one of FEW villains--between both DC and Marvel--that posed a serious threat, a villain that actually made me worry with each turn of the page. He's the first that comes to mind when I think of actual villainous villains, and the death of Iris set the entire thing off. A very dark moment, pre-Crisis.

And pretty much ALL of Moore's Swamp Thing, including the memorable Crisis crossover issue and his battles with a 'pre/post Crisis Luthor and Batman...the entire 'American Gothic' was far from the norm for DC, before Crisis and Vertigo.

Talking about Fiona , Fiona Webb was the one that was screwed over badly. Barry left her at the altar (after reverse flash tried to kill her and Barry killed him instead) and then she lost her mind and confined into an asylum.

[Anthony Shaw]

I read a comments from that period of Flash on a few fansites. I have yet to read an issue from the death of Iris to the last issue. It was some really dark stuff. Someone stashed drugs in Barry's lab, he & Iris were drifting apart, Barry dealing with a telepathic young woman stalking him, and a deranged killer on the loose. Oh, and Barry full of drugs fighting the JLA on the Satellite. I won't go into detail of Big Sur, but I think others have mentioned that here in other threads.

Barry's world seemed to be beyond grim-dark during that span.

I hope DC puts that era in paper-back & in color.

[Melwicker]

I came into the death of Iris Allen long after the fact--Barry had started dating Fiona by the time I became a regular reader--but it always impressed me that DC put Barry through such a traumatic ordeal. I've said in past posts (before the purge) that Eobard Thawne was one of FEW villains--between both DC and Marvel--that posed a serious threat, a villain that actually made me worry with each turn of the page. He's the first that comes to mind when I think of actual villainous villains, and the death of Iris set the entire thing off. A very dark moment, pre-Crisis.

And pretty much ALL of Moore's Swamp Thing, including the memorable Crisis crossover issue and his battles with a 'pre/post Crisis Luthor and Batman...the entire 'American Gothic' was far from the norm for DC, before Crisis and Vertigo.

ALL of Moore's Swamp Thing, huh? What about Swamp Thing's ORIGIN STORY written by Len Wein and Bernie Wrightson in the early 1970s in the original debut issues...years BEFORE Alan Moore got his hands on Swampy's character mythos and years BEFORE Moore had retconned and tweaked Swampy's origin story with the "Anatomy Lesson"?
Swampy's origin story was PLENTY dark, grotesque, and gloomy YEARS before Alan Moore wrote "the Anatomy Lesson" story! When Lzen Wein and Bernie Wrightson created the debut issue of Swamp Thing, the poor swamp monster was supposed to be a formerly human man who became a swamp monster as a result of being the victim of an attempted murder! the character of Swamp Thing started out as an idealistic, innocent human scientist who was covered in a strange chemical (of his own creation), and subsequently burned alive as a result of someone trying to murder him!
Not only was Swamp Thing a monster who was once a decent, innocent human being, but he also suffered one more tragedy in one of his two original pre-Moore origin stories...the poor guy's own wife was murdered by the same people who tried to kill him!
So Swamp Thing started out as very dark and bleak even before Alan Moore started his run. The original Len Wein version of Swamp Thing is quite dark, sad, and tragic as a character story.


Now that I think about it....many DC comics characters had tragic origin stories, but I can think of only a small few that have pre-crisis origin stories as dark as that of Swamp Thing. Batman, Deadman and Superman are names that come to mind....and yes, having one's own home planet destroyed when the character was just a baby counts as a grim origin story.

[The Darknight Detective]

Talking about Fiona , Fiona Webb was the one that was screwed over badly. Barry left her at the altar (after reverse flash tried to kill her and Barry killed him instead) and then she lost her mind and confined into an asylum.

Not only that, they couldn't even finish dressing her!

Seriously DC, talk about a gratuitous underwear shot.