Anyone Want Gwen Back?

[dddaaavvv]

No thanks. Enough of dead characters coming back forcing writers to come up with awkward explanations about the situation. And I'm not sure that you in a believable way can have Peter reacting in any other way than just freaking out if he suddenly stands face to face with someone who says she's the real Gwen Stacy. Would it be possible for him to believe her with everything he's been through over the years with clones, fake parents and everything? Let Gwen be dead. Enough of the stupidity of tinkering with the past. Spider-Man had enough of that crap the last 20 years or so.Re-read the old stories if you desperately wants to read about one of the most boring characters in Spider-Man history.

Gwen's Clone freaked him out in #145 but he survived, and after ALL the absurd things that have happened since then, Peter might be skeptical but if the proof is there, he could be accepting of her return.

As for boring, EVERY character in the 60's was boring compared to today.

[John Ossie]

(QUOTE)Goblin Serum revives her, body replaced by another corpse, whisked away by Goblin's henchmen, amnesia for ten years, regains memory, reunites with Peter. There are other details that explain away MOST nitpicks, but that would make a short story long! (QUOTE/)

Okay well now I've read your 101 post dddaaavvv.

So during the amnesia years and seeing as how she was whisked away by Goblin's henchmen, was she working alongside the Green Goblin during that time period before she regained her memory?

[dddaaavvv]

(QUOTE)Goblin Serum revives her, body replaced by another corpse, whisked away by Goblin's henchmen, amnesia for ten years, regains memory, reunites with Peter. There are other details that explain away MOST nitpicks, but that would make a short story long! (QUOTE/)

Okay well now I've read your 101 post dddaaavvv.

So during the amnesia years and seeing as how she was whisked away by Goblin's henchmen, was she working alongside the Green Goblin during that time period before she regained her memory?

That was one of those nitpicks I was talking about! She's taken to Europe and held as a hostage , maybe to take care of her kids, but escapes and wanders around Europe for several years and eventually returns to America searching for clues to her identity.

[John Ossie]

That was one of those nitpicks I was talking about! She's taken to Europe and held as a hostage , maybe to take care of her kids, but escapes and wanders around Europe for several years and eventually returns to America searching for clues to her identity.

It wasn't a nitpick (at least that wasn't the intention) I was merely asking for more details about the whole amnesia years part of your idea is all. And now I know.

[Aruran.]

Again, There was a loose but long term plan for Gwen to be Peter's Lois Lane. After the initial success of Amazing Fantasy #15 and the sales history up to that point it was obvious that unless something drastic were to happen, ASM would be around for a long time.

Yeah you're forgetting the argument the Steve Ditko and Stan Lee had when Stand wanted to graduate Peter from Highschool. Ditko didn't want to, and looking back we can acknowledge that he was probably right at the end. If Peter stayed in highschool and met Gwen, theres no guarantee that she would've stayed relevant without her dying.

I don't agree. IMHO it would have been BEST to leave Norman Osborn dead as a form of karmic justice for Gwen's death and THEN move on and hope it never happens again, and yet here he is! Osborn's modern character has all kinds of layers of depth and dimension. Everything they've done with Norman with resurrection, character development, etc. Can be done with Gwen.

Again, I didn't agree with Norman coming back and I was only 3 when it happened. Heck I didn't know until I started reading it in 2012. It's the same thing with Kraven coming back, theres a good initial story dealing with them coming back to life, but never anything to build off of that. He hasn't appeared since Grim Hunt in Amazing, and it's really a waste considering what a great story KLH was.

You may hold Gwen's death sacred for your own reasons, but to me, IF she is to stay dead, then Norman and ALL the incarnations of the Green Goblin should have stayed dead as well. If she is to stay dead and her death held sacred, then NO clones, NO alternate universe versions, NO Sins Past, none of that. NO mention of her in movies like Raimi #1 and 3 JUST to entice people into watching (I would allow Sony's movies because they did tell the story and then ended it.)

So if she's dead, then no one should talk about her? She shouldn't be shown at all? I'm just saying, I like Gwen because her and Peter's time was cut short, that's interesting to me.

About the ONLY thing IMHO that respected her death the way that YOU claim it should be respected was Spider-man: Blue. EVERYTHING else was exploitation. So say what you want but IMHO the genie has already been let out of the bottle, my hopes for Gwen are just allowing that same genie into another room.

Umm what about that one shot "The Kiss" I heard that was well done?

Also to respect the sanctity of death you CLAIM to hold so dear, Aunt May dies in #195 and STAYS dead.

400 is a better example. That story in 195 was an arc designed to fake Aunt May's death and let Peter met the crock who killed Uncle Ben. 400 was a decision by one writer that later got undone by another.

As I'm sure you are aware, we don't always get our way in life. Sometimes you have to compromise or just accept that you don't always get your way. You've had your way, for my guess is, longer than you've even been alive, but that doesn't entitle you to get your way forever. Now it's is time to stand aside and allow others to get a little of what you have enjoyed.

??? Ok clearly you're taking this a little too personal.
My complaint is that if you write a story that kills a character off, it better have more depth then simply for shock value. Gwen's death will always affect Peter cause he failed at one point and it costed someone their life. Now if you bring back Gwen, what exactly does that give you? A story they can be a couple is one, but there really isn't anything else. So much time has past, that if Gwen did come back, what exactly is she adding to Spider-Man that needs her? Theres already so many roles that have importance in Peter's life, so just by adding Gwen can really screw it up for the writer and the reader as well. Gwen coming back is a one time thing, so you have to be careful on using that idea. Planning for her long term future is really something that doesn't work out cause unless her and Peter became a couple, what is she doing in the book?

[dddaaavvv]

It wasn't a nitpick (at least that wasn't the intention) I was merely asking for more details about the whole amnesia years part of your idea is all. And now I know.

Hey, it's cool! I assure you when I came up with the basic story a few years back There were a LOT more details that needed to be included to satisfy all the crazy things that have happened since #121 AND bring her back without some kind of deus ex machina solution (but that way would be fine with me as long as Gwen comes back the way I want her to.)

Here's one question that took me a while to come up with an answer for: During Sins Past, Peter dug up Gwen's grave and took some tissue samples to compare them with the kids to see in they were really hers. My solution: I saw an episode of CSI or something where a person received a blood transfusion that made DNA identification ambiguous. They couldn't prove OR disprove that a certain suspect committed the crime based on DNA evidence! SO! The coroner was one of Goblin's accomplices (since he was there to revive Norman anyway) takes fluid and tissue samples from Gwen and distributes them liberally in and on the fake Gwen's corpse. Peter takes the tissue samples, get's ambiguous results but because he's not an expert with DNA, he thinks that maybe the sample might have been contaminated through his own mishandling but SOME of the tests come back positive, so he considers them acceptable proof!

[John Ossie]

It's the same thing with Kraven coming back, theres a good initial story dealing with them coming back to life, but never anything to build off of that. He hasn't appeared since Grim Hunt in Amazing, and it's really a waste considering what a great story KLH was.

Kraven was in Scarlet Spider trying to get him to kill him.

Hey, it's cool! I assure you when I came up with the basic story a few years back There were a LOT more details that needed to be included to satisfy all the crazy things that have happened since #121 AND bring her back with some kind of deus ex machina solution (but that way would be fine with me as long as Gwen comes back the way I want her to.)

Here's one question that took me a while to come up with an answer for: During Sins Past, Peter dug up Gwen's grave and took some tissue samples to compare them with the kids to see in they were really hers. My solution: I saw an episode of CSI or something where a person received a blood transfusion that made DNA identification ambiguous. They couldn't prove OR disprove that a certain suspect committed the crime based on DNA evidence! SO! The coroner was one of Goblin's accomplices (since he was there to revive Norman anyway) takes fluid and tissue samples from Gwen and distributes them liberally in and on the fake Gwen's corpse. Peter takes the tissue samples, get's ambiguous results but because he's not an expert with DNA, he thinks that maybe the sample might have been contaminated through his own mishandling but SOME of the tests come back positive, so he considers them acceptable proof!

lol you spend a lot of time thinking about this don't you? lol.

As far as Gwen coming back I guess all we can do is wait and see. I don't expect it to happen anytime soon but then again I don't work for Marvel so who knows? In the meantime I guess you and people like you who like Gwen will have to keep an eye out for any appearances she makes in the Ultimate Universe for now.

[Hoosier X]

If Norman Osborne can come back, then Gwen can come back to kill Osborne for giving her a roofie.

And then Gwen's clone should come back, too, for the greatest story arc in Spider-Man history.

[Scott Taylor]

If Norman Osborne can come back, then Gwen can come back to kill Osborne for giving her a roofie.

And then Gwen's clone should come back, too, for the greatest story arc in Spider-Man history.

If Gwen comes back, the Jackal should kidnap her and put her in a warehouse with 100s of other Gwen clones and the force Peter to find the true Gwen.

[dddaaavvv]

Yeah you're forgetting the argument the Steve Ditko and Stan Lee had when Stand wanted to graduate Peter from Highschool. Ditko didn't want to, and looking back we can acknowledge that he was probably right at the end. If Peter stayed in highschool and met Gwen, theres no guarantee that she would've stayed relevant without her dying.

Ditko also didn't want Norman to be Green Goblin either, and he was replaced with Romita Sr. Being pigheaded and stubborn doesn't always yield desirable results.

Again, I didn't agree with Norman coming back and I was only 3 when it happened. Heck I didn't know until I started reading it in 2012. It's the same thing with Kraven coming back, theres a good initial story dealing with them coming back to life, but never anything to build off of that. He hasn't appeared since Grim Hunt in Amazing, and it's really a waste considering what a great story KLH was.

Well, at least we agree on that point, but for different reasons! I don't care about your age you are obviously intelligent and passionate about things and I can appreciate that, however you need to acknowledge that yours isn't the only point of view. I tried explaining myself to you in post #115 and it seems to have fallen upon uninterested ears.

So if she's dead, then no one should talk about her? She shouldn't be shown at all? I'm just saying, I like Gwen because her and Peter's time was cut short, that's interesting to me.

It's not a matter of talking about her, it's a matter either LEAVING her dead,(and everyone else who has come back for that matter) having her be a tragic memory for Peter to reflect on (which I could have accepted) or you consider bringing her back along with all the others. When you started reading the status quo was there was Norman and Harry and all the other characters who had been revived, but Gwen was dead. Because of this you accepted the status quo, and of course any kind of change to that you resist. Great. But as I said, yours isn't the only opinion that matters.

Umm what about that one shot "The Kiss" I heard that was well done?

You mean I DON"T have a photographic memory and forgot something? WOW! Shoot me now! Of course if that's case, then I guess I can condemn you for conveniently overlooking several points that I have made because it was easier not to address them.

400 is a better example. That story in 195 was an arc designed to fake Aunt May's death and let Peter met the crock who killed Uncle Ben. 400 was a decision by one writer that later got undone by another.

I agree, #400 was a very touching story and it would have been a very graceful way to end Aunt May's run. #200 was good issue as well and bringing here back under those circumstances was acceptable, but unnecessary. It did however make a good story, and there was a happy ending and there was the karmic justice that am looking for. We are in agreement.

I hope we can also agree that bring Aunt May back in #441(?) (like I said no photographic memory!) was an abomination!

??? Ok clearly you're taking this a little too personal.
My complaint is that if you write a story that kills a character off, it better have more depth then simply for shock value. Gwen's death will always affect Peter cause he failed at one point and it costed someone their life. Now if you bring back Gwen, what exactly does that give you? A story they can be a couple is one, but there really isn't anything else. So much time has past, that if Gwen did come back, what exactly is she adding to Spider-Man that needs her? Theres already so many roles that have importance in Peter's life, so just by adding Gwen can really screw it up for the writer and the reader as well. Gwen coming back is a one time thing, so you have to be careful on using that idea. Planning for her long term future is really something that doesn't work out cause unless her and Peter became a couple, what is she doing in the book?

No I'm not taking it personal per se, however, I am pointing out that yours is not the only point of view in the world and other point of view need to be considered. That's why I spent so much effort on Post #115 I was hoping you would see that.

IMHO Gwen's death was nothing more than shock value. I don't see any PROFOUND changes in Peter's life after that. His fate was sealed by Uncle Ben, not Gwen. IMHO Gwen's was a senseless death in the world of Spider-man. However it WAS an historical event in the world of comics. All it did was pile on a little more guilt in Peter's life. Then again Peter's neurotic self loathing does that all the time!

If you can think of any OTHER profound changes in Peter's life as a result of Gwen's death I'm all ears! About the only thing he did was consider different methods to rescue people, but his web, if you go back and read the earlier issues, had worked just fine on EVERY other occasion he had used it.

I would like to point out a few things in real life that show that that's NOT necessarily a good thing. Had he hesitated and considered other options he might have been too late and Gwen would have died any way. He really had no way of knowing that the forces would of the recoil would have killed Gwen (I have also mentioned this before on numerous occasions.) You don't always have time to do a cost/benefit analysis! You act instinctively and either works or it doesn't, that's life. His perceived guilt is unjustified. You make the best decision you can given the information you have at that time. Right or wrong, success or failure, he made a GOOD decision. It just happened to be the wrong decision. He failed not because he was a bad person, or negligent, but because he couldn't defy the laws of physics.

There are a couple of real life situations that I would like to reference for you to research regarding being damned if you do damned if you don't. I would appreciate YOU doing the research yourself because it would take forever for me to explain them: First Gen. Short's decisions regarding positioning of planes at Pearl Harbor and the inward opening hatch on Apollo 1.

Anyway, bringing Gwen back and them being a couple is important to me and other people as well. I'm not alone in this desire. You may not appreciate the karmic balance that I talk about yet, but there WILL come a time in your life where you will experience this desire for justice. Hell, even back with Ben's death, there was a certain amount of karmic balance. Ben died but his killer WAS brought to justice. Peter has saved millions of peoples lives since he became Spider-man, but he still won't give himself a break.

Given when you started reading you may not appreciate Gwen and Peter getting the chance to be the couple they were supposed to. Again it is important to me, and whether you agree I would appreciate you at least respecting my point of view. As for Gwen coming back being a one time thing, IF it's done the way I want it to, it would be enough, for me. I don't know exactly why you are resistant to Gwen coming back other than it disrupts your status quo. For some people their status quo was Peter and MJ married so OMD upset their world. Hell, for some people, if they started reading at the beginning of SpOck. Having Peter back might upset THEM!!

We cane go around and around on this forever, but I just want Gwen and Peter to Have what they were supposed to have in there relationship. Hell I have offered compromises that would satisfy me and people have offered nothing but mindless obstructionism! Leave Gwen dead but bring in Jill Stacy and have them find a derivative of the happiness the Peter and Gwen would have had, and people have objected to THAT. Some people might say Peter and MJ is a derivative of this, not to me. In my mind Gwen is , and was intended to be Peter's great love, and that's why I feel the way I feel.

At first I was willing to offer the compromise of Ben Reilly and clone Gwen having a relationship in a separate comic. People objected to THAT or offered no support. I offered A Kaine/ clone Gwen relationship and again, objection or no support. For me as long as there is some way to allow at least a derivative of Gwen and Peter to have the relationship they were denied, where there could be a playing out of what was SUPPOSED to happen I would find satisfaction, but until I see one of these alternatives realized I am going to stick with my original desire.

I get the impression that some people , not necessarily you, but SOME others, just want Peter miserable. My guess is their lives are sad and they want to feel like they are not alone, and Peter's misery gives them comfort. Me, I have a desire for hope. That although bad things happen, good things also happen. I like to hold on to the belief that there is a certain degree of fairness in the world and that we can at the very least find that karmic balance in some way or another.

Well, I said my piece, I have little faith that you will appreciate or respect my position, but I hope that someday you will. If you do, hopefully, it might spare you some pain in YOUR life.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Well, she was written to be a foil for Gwen's character. She was written to be Veronica to Gwen's Betty. Was 60's MJ fun? Sure. Was she someone who you could count on when the chips were down or to respect a friend's relationship with someone else? The answer was in those Lee/Romita era comics, and it was no. Anybody who doubts that, I respectfully suggest you go back and read those comics for yourself.

Neither was Gwen, who would criticize Peter at the drop of a hat, before moving onto a clone of MJ, to someone who couldn't even handle Peter being standoffish, which caused her to emotionally break down from time to time.

The nice thing about MJ's characterization is that she moved beyond the depiction she had during the Romita Jr. and Lee run, most prominently seen in ASM# 122.

[dddaaavvv]

lol you spend a lot of time thinking about this don't you? lol.

I've had 40 f*****g years to think about this! LOL

Actually It didn't take all that long. I didn't actually sit down and write it all at once. I just pondered it and as the questions answered themselves I made a mental note of it. The DNA bit was the hardest part. The rest of it wasn't a big deal. Kidnapping, body swapping, amnesia. Yeah! Like these are NEW plot devices! LOL I just wanted to come up with a story outline that didn't use the deus ex machina plot device. IMHO that's the lazy way to go. I wanted it to be a real, not a mystical storyline ( but as long as Gwen comes back (and she and Peter have their relationship) ANY story would work for me!)

[Aruran.]

No I'm not taking it personal per se, however, I am pointing out that yours is not the only point of view in the world and other point of view need to be considered. That's why I spent so much effort on Post #115 I was hoping you would see that.

Well I read your post #115, and it really didn't add anything other than you want Gwen and Peter, no one else.

IMHO Gwen's death was nothing more than shock value. I don't see any PROFOUND changes in Peter's life after that. His fate was sealed by Uncle Ben, not Gwen. IMHO Gwen's was a senseless death in the world of Spider-man. However it WAS an historical event in the world of comics. All it did was pile on a little more guilt in Peter's life. Then again Peter's neurotic self loathing does that all the time!

If you can think of any OTHER profound changes in Peter's life as a result of Gwen's death I'm all ears! About the only thing he did was consider different methods to rescue people, but his web, if you go back and read the earlier issues, had worked just fine on EVERY other occasion he had used it.

Everyone in Peter's world got affected. Gwen dying made them enter the harsh reality that they live in. If you want a profound change, Peter did want to kill Norman, and when Norman died Harry became a mess and moved out. For the next 100 issues Peter lived on his own, pushed people away and stuff. Gwen's death changed Peter's life, you can't debate that.

We cane go around and around on this forever, but I just want Gwen and Peter to Have what they were supposed to have in there relationship. Hell I have offered compromises that would satisfy me and people have offered nothing but mindless obstructionism! Leave Gwen dead but bring in Jill Stacy and have them find a derivative of the happiness the Peter and Gwen would have had, and people have objected to THAT. Some people might say Peter and MJ is a derivative of this, not to me. In my mind Gwen is , and was intended to be Peter's great love, and that's why I feel the way I feel.

Seriously? You just want someone with the last name Stacy to date Peter then. Look I get you don't like the shipping of Peter and MJ, there are people who dislike or hate it.
But what if Jill Stacy was made and became the girl that Peter dated after Gwen died, you would easily be just as angry that they killed off Gwen and replaced her with a dark haired person.

At first I was willing to offer the compromise of Ben Reilly and clone Gwen having a relationship in a separate comic. People objected to THAT or offered no support. I offered A Kaine/ clone Gwen relationship and again, objection or no support. For me as long as there is some way to allow at least a derivative of Gwen and Peter to have the relationship they were denied, where there could be a playing out of what was SUPPOSED to happen I would find satisfaction, but until I see one of these alternatives realized I am going to stick with my original desire.

Read House of M: Spider-Man.

I would like to point out a few things in real life that show that that's NOT necessarily a good thing. Had he hesitated and considered other options he might have been too late and Gwen would have died any way. He really had no way of knowing that the forces would of the recoil would have killed Gwen (I have also mentioned this before on numerous occasions.) You don't always have time to do a cost/benefit analysis! You act instinctively and either works or it doesn't, that's life. His perceived guilt is unjustified. You make the best decision you can given the information you have at that time. Right or wrong, success or failure, he made a GOOD decision. It just happened to be the wrong decision. He failed not because he was a bad person, or negligent, but because he couldn't defy the laws of physics.

There are a couple of real life situations that I would like to reference for you to research regarding being damned if you do damned if you don't. I would appreciate YOU doing the research yourself because it would take forever for me to explain them: First Gen. Short's decisions regarding positioning of planes at Pearl Harbor and the inward opening hatch on Apollo 1.

Anyway, bringing Gwen back and them being a couple is important to me and other people as well. I'm not alone in this desire. You may not appreciate the karmic balance that I talk about yet, but there WILL come a time in your life where you will experience this desire for justice. Hell, even back with Ben's death, there was a certain amount of karmic balance. Ben died but his killer WAS brought to justice. Peter has saved millions of peoples lives since he became Spider-man, but he still won't give himself a break.

Given when you started reading you may not appreciate Gwen and Peter getting the chance to be the couple they were supposed to. Again it is important to me, and whether you agree I would appreciate you at least respecting my point of view. As for Gwen coming back being a one time thing, IF it's done the way I want it to, it would be enough, for me. I don't know exactly why you are resistant to Gwen coming back other than it disrupts your status quo. For some people their status quo was Peter and MJ married so OMD upset their world. Hell, for some people, if they started reading at the beginning of SpOck. Having Peter back might upset THEM!!

I get the impression that some people , not necessarily you, but SOME others, just want Peter miserable. My guess is their lives are sad and they want to feel like they are not alone, and Peter's misery gives them comfort. Me, I have a desire for hope. That although bad things happen, good things also happen. I like to hold on to the belief that there is a certain degree of fairness in the world and that we can at the very least find that karmic balance in some way or another.

Well, I said my piece, I have little faith that you will appreciate or respect my position, but I hope that someday you will. If you do, hopefully, it might spare you some pain in YOUR life.

Look, I get your position, it seems you personally don't like Spider-Man ever since Gwen died. And for you, bringing Gwen back will solve your problems with the story. My concern has been and will be about what happens next. Bringing Gwen back pleases the readers who wanted her, and that shouldn't happen. They shouldn't write to please, they should write to entertain, if you don't like it, tough luck. The history of comics and fiction in general has taught us, writing to please your readers doesn't give decent results, and the story becomes ruined.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Look, I get your position, it seems you personally don't like Spider-Man ever since Gwen died. And for you, bringing Gwen back will solve your problems with the story. My concern has been and will be about what happens next. Bringing Gwen back pleases the readers who wanted her, and that shouldn't happen. They should write to please, they write to entertain, if you don't like it, tough luck. The history of comics and fiction in general has taught us, writing to please your readers doesn't give decent results, and the story becomes ruined.

I don't necessarily agree with the statement of "Creators shouldn't write to please," but I do agree with the sentiment of it. I do think that creators do have to work to please their audience on at least some level.

But from what I understand you're getting at (And please forgive me if I am wrong) is that the creators shouldn't try to work towards maneuvering the mythos towards a particular individuals or set of individuals idea of what they think it should or should not be. I think that a mistake a lot of people make, creators and fans alike, is that they believe that employing a particular status quo will therefore lead to a better stories overall. That if they make Peter single, if they bring Gwen back, if they rewind the narrative back to High School, the stories will then be better. It will appeal to more people. And it will be easier for them to create these great stories.

The problem with this is that it makes the assumption that the status quo is the main driving force behind the quality of the stories, and not the people involved. In addition, it tends to skip over several steps from the inception of the idea to the implementation. It reminds me, rather humorously, of the Underpants Gnomes from South Park and their plans for World Conquest- Step 1: Bring back Gwen/ Rewind the clock/ Make Peter single. Step 2: ??????. Step 3: Success! I think that some creators and fans alike tend to focus just on part one and part three, without taking the time to consider what comes in between. Hence why we get stories like the 90's Clone Saga towards the end. Or OMD.

In addition, this tends to fall into the problem I've found with trying to convince others based on philosophy. I used to have a job where I would sell memberships of an organization to individuals to help them reduce input costs for their respective farms in order to increase their overall profitability. It is, what I felt and still feel, to be a fairly noble endeavor. However, my colleagues and I found that we still had to offer our customers something of substantive value in order to get them to buy. The idea of being part of a larger group to help reduce their costs was a good idea that many agreed with. But it was only when they actually saw savings and could buy something at a reduced cost that they would sign up. And, in many respects, writing and creating are the same thing. Yes, you can claim that something is a good idea, and that it will definitely, positively lead to better things down the line. But it is only when you offer something of value- something immediate and of substance to that person- that they are willing to accept or buy it. Bringing Gwen back may seem like a good philosophy. But it's just a philosophy, and really offers nothing of value to those who don't agree with that philosophy. That's why the focus should be on presenting a quality product in the here and now, rather than trying to justify something that might, maybe, if everything works out and you do your part, lead to something of intangible quality at some point.

[dddaaavvv]

Well I read your post #115, and it really didn't add anything other than you want Gwen and Peter, no one else.

No, I was trying to explain WHY I want Gwen and Peter, but I guess you only see what you want to see.

Everyone in Peter's world got affected. Gwen dying made them enter the harsh reality that they live in. If you want a profound change, Peter did want to kill Norman, and when Norman died Harry became a mess and moved out. For the next 100 issues Peter lived on his own, pushed people away and stuff. Gwen's death changed Peter's life, you can't debate that.

I asked how it affected PETER'S life, not those around him. You missed that too.

Seriously? You just want someone with the last name Stacy to date Peter then. Look I get you don't like the shipping of Peter and MJ, there are people who dislike or hate it.
But what if Jill Stacy was made and became the girl that Peter dated after Gwen died, you would easily be just as angry that they killed off Gwen and replaced her with a dark haired person.

I'm not even going to bother going back and look for the post to reference to you about why I considered Jill an acceptable compromise because you won't really read it, and I know you won't bother to look for it on your own. If you were to read it you would see that your conclusion is incorrect.

Read House of M: Spider-Man.

Read it. Alternative reality. Not even a close facsimile of 616 Spidey's world. In fact 616 is just a story in that Peter's journal.

Look, I get your position, it seems you personally don't like Spider-Man ever since Gwen died. And for you, bringing Gwen back will solve your problems with the story.

You don't get my position at all. Spider-man's fine. Peter and Gwen's relationship is just something that is important to me. I've tried explaining why but you don't want to understand.

My concern has been and will be about what happens next. Bringing Gwen back pleases the readers who wanted her, and that shouldn't happen. They should write to please, they write to entertain, if you don't like it, tough luck. The history of comics and fiction in general has taught us, writing to please your readers doesn't give decent results, and the story becomes ruined.

Wrong. Granted, this maybe the case in SOME fiction, but not all. Just because you like dark, grim, bleak, hopeless stories where the protagonist suffers, doesn't mean everyone does. As I tried to explain unsuccessfully to you, your point of view is not universal. Maybe you have this melancholy view of the world, but thankfully not everyone does. All I can say is I'm glad I try and find the good in the world, not the bad, and want the world to be a better place not a worse place.

I'm glad we had this discussion. It reminds me of the World War 2 battle for the Japanese stronghold in Rabaul. After wasting a lot of time and effort the Americans realized that winning this battle wasn't even necessary. All they had to do was bypass Rabaul and cut it off and it became irrelevant and the Americans instead put their efforts into meaningful and necessary objectives and won the war anyway. Thanks for the revelation, Aruran.