Anyone Want Gwen Back?

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

I asked how it affected PETER'S life, not those around him. You missed that too.

It affected Peter's life in that it haunts him to this day and causes him to have trouble connecting to people and getting close to him. It affected his life in that it caused him to get closer to MJ, and form a relationship he never might have partaken in if he hadn't lost Gwen, which still influences the book to this day. It affected his life in that Gwen's death eventually led to the death of Norman, which turned his best friend against him which eventually led to his (temporary) death. It affected him in that the death of the Green Goblin allowed a common thug to come across the Goblin's secret cache of weapons, which he eventually sold to the villain that would become the Hobgoblin and one of his greatest foes.

The death of Gwen pretty much affected Peter on every level.

I'm not even going to bother going back and look for the post to reference to you about why I considered Jill an acceptable compromise because you won't really read it, and I know you won't bother to look for it on your own. If you were to read it you would see that your conclusion is incorrect.

The problem with this argument is that it assumes that the opposing party believes that having Gwen of any form in the book is paramount to all else. But not everyone sees a returned Gwen, or a Jill manipulated into being a clone of Gwen, as something of value.

The problem is also that it isn't much of a compromise. You are essentially getting pretty much everything you want, with the other party having to make concessions to give you what you want. The thing of it is, the other party has no need to compromise, as that argument offers little to nothing of real value. As the saying goes, a compromise is something where no one walks away happy. Your offer only really makes things good for you, but doesn't really consider what the other person wants.

[dddaaavvv]

This is a topic that is important to me. I've explained the reasons why TOO many times. After putting a second person on my ignore list, I stopped to wonder why were these people and a few others were so adamantly resistant to Gwen coming back? And I finally realized they weren't. Gwen coming back wasn't that big a deal, but finding out is WAS a big deal to some others and her coming back would bring great satisfaction to these people, all of a sudden NOW it became important. Because of this experience I now truly understand the scope and meaning of the word reactionary. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just an aspect of human nature. I'm not perfect. I can get my buttons pushed as well, as you've all seen! It's just sad that these primal responses can have such a profound effect upon us that we would end up alienating each other. In other circumstances we would be very kind and generous to each other. Hell, if we met at a Comic Con and we didn't know each other we would most likely be friendly and kind and generous to each other over something so trivial. Well, I'm not going away but my perspective has most definitely changed. Sadly it's not a positive change, but I guess it is a necessary one. Anyway, that was just something I needed to get off my chest. Back to the trenches!!

[Aruran.]

I don't necessarily agree with the statement of "Creators shouldn't write to please," but I do agree with the sentiment of it. I do think that creators do have to work to please their audience on at least some level.

But from what I understand you're getting at (And please forgive me if I am wrong) is that the creators shouldn't try to work towards maneuvering the mythos towards a particular individuals or set of individuals idea of what they think it should or should not be. I think that a mistake a lot of people make, creators and fans alike, is that they believe that employing a particular status quo will therefore lead to a better stories overall. That if they make Peter single, if they bring Gwen back, if they rewind the narrative back to High School, the stories will then be better. It will appeal to more people. And it will be easier for them to create these great stories.

The problem with this is that it makes the assumption that the status quo is the main driving force behind the quality of the stories, and not the people involved. In addition, it tends to skip over several steps from the inception of the idea to the implementation. It reminds me, rather humorously, of the Underpants Gnomes from South Park and their plans for World Conquest- Step 1: Bring back Gwen/ Rewind the clock/ Make Peter single. Step 2: ??????. Step 3: Success! I think that some creators and fans alike tend to focus just on part one and part three, without taking the time to consider what comes in between. Hence why we get stories like the 90's Clone Saga towards the end. Or OMD.

That's kinda my point, I try to clarify it like this.
We doing anything that involves entertainment, we shouldn't be doing it to please the audience, but to entertain them. Entertaining them will please them in a way that more people will enjoy then focusing on a select group. Its a plus when you managed to please the audience, but if you didn't entertain them that point doesn't matter. Great stories are the ones that do both, that's why there aren't a lot of great stories. I will acknowledge that its dependent on the person being entertain, and not everyone will like what they see.

That's why there have been so many controversial stories, cause they were pleasing the audience first rather than entertaining them. The same thing falls with people wanting the marriage back, sure will make you happy, but what happens next? If someone writes a story that brings back Gwen and it is entertaining and doesn't blow up in the future, I'm ok with it.

Yes, you can claim that something is a good idea, and that it will definitely, positively lead to better things down the line. But it is only when you offer something of value- something immediate and of substance to that person- that they are willing to accept or buy it. Bringing Gwen back may seem like a good philosophy. But it's just a philosophy, and really offers nothing of value to those who don't agree with that philosophy. That's why the focus should be on presenting a quality product in the here and now, rather than trying to justify something that might, maybe, if everything works out and you do your part, lead to something of intangible quality at some point.

That's really what all of this is about, quality. I just don't see Gwen coming back as a good idea because so many times in the past it didn't work out. Now maybe you could have an idea that seems great, but working it out theres always some bump in the road you never saw coming.


I guess I would sum it up like this;
Don't make a mess that someone else has to deal with.

[Donuts]

If I may ask everyone here, why is this a "thing?"

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

That's kinda my point, I try to clarify it like this.
We doing anything that involves entertainment, we shouldn't be doing it to please the audience, but to entertain them. Entertaining them will please them in a way that more people will enjoy then focusing on a select group. Its a plus when you managed to please the audience, but if you didn't entertain them that point doesn't matter. Great stories are the ones that do both, that's why there aren't a lot of great stories. I will acknowledge that its dependent on the person being entertain, and not everyone will like what they see.

I believe I know what you are getting at. I just find the term "To please" to be a little to similar to the term "To entertain," as I regard them as pretty synonymous. But I get what you are saying. It's a difficult distinction to make between that which will entertain someone, and that which will live up to someone's particular vision. I think a big problem is that people judge a story based not on how effective it is, but on how it lives up to the story they wanted to see. A story may be entertaining and emotionally satisfying, but because it didn't accomplish what the particular individual wants they regard it as a failure or that it was of lower quality.

I keep thinking back to the Red Wedding in the Game of Thrones series. I don't think for a second that this is the ending that a lot of fans wanted for some of their favorite characters. However, from the reaction, you can also tell that they appreciate it because it showed that the story itself was willing to take risks and not play it safe. They may not be happy to see Robb and Katlyn Stark killed, but they are satisfied with the narrative. King Lear may not be the happiest of tales, but it is a strong story with a compelling narrative. And while Gwen's death may be sad, it's meant to be sad and it's meant to be tragic. It's what gives the series it's emotional weight. This isn't a story where the hero can get the girl in the end. This is a story where there exists the very real possibility of people the hero loves dying, and not coming back.

That's why there have been so many controversial stories, cause they were pleasing the audience first rather than entertaining them. The same thing falls with people wanting the marriage back, sure will make you happy, but what happens next? If someone writes a story that brings back Gwen and it is entertaining and doesn't blow up in the future, I'm ok with it.

I'm not so sure if this controversy has to do with pleasing the audience first rather than entertaining them. I think they stemmed from the fact that the creators made the mistake of assuming they knew what the audience wanted, instead of honestly asking for it. In addition, they assumed that what would be good for them would therefore be good for the fans. It's rather easy to believe that if the creators made the series exactly the way they want, then they will be able to tell better stories. This isn't necessarily the case. There have been many instances where creators had a free pass on pretty much everything, but still didn't manage to come up with a great story. But there have also been instances where creators couldn't do exactly what they wanted, but still managed to pull off a great story.

In the end, I think that far too many people think that making something easier for them therefore makes it better for everyone overall. But the easiest thing isn't the most worthwhile. As Bruce Campbell has said, he's had easy shoots and he's had hard shoots. But he's far more proud of the hard shoots than the easy ones.

And as you said, the focus should be on entertaining the audience. But in this case, I'd say that the focus shouldn't necessarily be on pleasing the creator.

That's really what all of this is about, quality. I just don't see Gwen coming back as a good idea because so many times in the past it didn't work out. Now maybe you could have an idea that seems great, but working it out there's always some bump in the road you never saw coming.

Right.

I wouldn't say bringing Gwen back would inevitably lead to a bad story. But it would take a lot to justify it. And I don't see how the aftermath of her return would really do anything other than regress the book backwards by several decades. Those that argue for her return seem more interested in trying to pretend the last forty years never happened rather than truly try to move forward with interesting stories.

I guess I would sum it up like this;
Don't make a mess that someone else has to deal with.

I'd try to sum up my point like this:
There's a difference between a good story, and porn. A good story may not satisfy all your wants, but it fulfills your need to be entertained in some way. A good story can be joyous, sad, funny, or tragic. But you still walk away from it emotionally satisfied, and the story stays with you for a long time. Porn is just a quick way to satisfy a want, and leaves no emotional resonance. There is no emotional connection to porn. There is no need, because it's not about forming a bond with the audience to have them care about the characters, but more to fulfill a fantasy. The focus should be on telling good stories, not making porn.

[dddaaavvv]

If I may ask everyone here, why is this a "thing?"

For me,
1.I read #121 first hand, and at 11yo, it hit me hard.
2.I could have accepted it and moved on, but Gwen kept popping in some form or another and that kept the wound from healing.
3. Norman coming back but Gwen staying dead was to me a karmic injustice
4.There were dozens of OTHER characters who had "died" but been brought back, so Why not Gwen as well?
5.I grew up watching Gwen and Peter's relationship grow and develop and, at the time naturally anticipated their relationship to play out the way most other relationships like this played out, marriage, settle down kids blah, blah, blah.
6. seeing all these other things that had transpired told me that Gwen's death was not something that was set in stone, that she COULD be brought back if the writers cared.

Do I sound irrational? Maybe, but not anymore irrational than the people who raised a stink about MJ getting killed in an aircraft explosion or those that had a s**t fit over OMD, or the people who are adamantly opposed to bringing Gwen back.

Anyway, those are my reasons in a nutshell.

[Qrx2]

If I may ask everyone here, why is this a "thing?"

Simple Answer, some people still like Gwen or think she still has something to offer to the Spider-man story besides being dead.

[dddaaavvv]

Simple Answer, some people still like Gwen or think she still has something to offer to the Spider-man story besides being dead.

That's reason #7 for me! Thanks Qrx2!

Some of the potential is several stories regarding the ten years she was missing, several stories of them rekindling their romance, several about the impact on Peter's friends. Probably substories would be a better description. Another idea to consider she could also assist Spidey fighting crime. Also she would add a new variable and a new dynamic to Peter's life enhancing and enriching any new stories that would be told.

[Qrx2]

That's reason #7 for me! Thanks Qrx2!

Some of the potential is several stories regarding the ten years she was missing, several stories of them rekindling their romance, several about the impact on Peter's friends. Probably substories would be a better description. Another idea to consider she could also assist Spidey fighting crime. Also she would add a new variable and a new dynamic to Peter's life enhancing and enriching any new stories that would be told.

You want to turn Peter's world upside down have the real Gwen Stacy show back up alive and healthy. Not a clone. The real thing. This puts Peter in one heck of a spot. Clearly while he still misses Gwen he has moved past her dying. Having her show back up and be proven to be the real thing would put him in an interesting spot. How does he respond? Clearly Peter is probably the first person she would probably go to because frankly unlike the movies in the comics it was shown to just be her dad and her and with him already gone she wouldn't really have any family to turn to that we know of.

So what would Peter do? How would he help her or would he want to push her away to make sure she's "safe" and doesn't suffer the same fate again? On top of that you would now have a 10 year age difference between Gwen and Peter and how do they handle that? There is that whole Sins Past thing that would probably come up and does Gwen ever get ot meet her children and what does she think of what has happened to Gab? There is the fact that Gwen never found out Peter is Spider-man. Would Peter help her while still trying to hide that from her? If he tells her how does she handle that? If she does find out how do her and Peter handle him maybe being the one who killed her? There is also the MJ factor. MJ has pretty much pushed Peter out of her life and I think it's easier for her to do because Peter doesn't really have anyone else to be with. Does having the other great love of his life showing up alive well change that? It opens the door for the Jackal to come back and as much as I hate to say this probably reopens the door for the clone saga to be revisited.

So I think there are many stories that could be told if they bring the real Gwen back. My issue has been and will remain I am not sure how you bring her back and I wouldn't want them to just go oh yeah hey Gwen's back. I would want it to be a story that would be worthy of an event they have avoided for 40 years. On top of that I have feeling even if they bring back the real Gwen it will only be a matter of time till she dies again as I think MJ is his true destiny and I don't see how you can have Peter say yeah I pick MJ over you Gwen without looking like a jerk. Like I said before I think the stuff in the middle with a Gwen return would be really good. I just think the return and more than likely death wouldn't be very good and in the case of the death probably couldn't be nearly as powerful as the first one.

[Donuts]

For me,
1.I read #121 first hand, and at 11yo, it hit me hard.
2.I could have accepted it and moved on, but Gwen kept popping in some form or another and that kept the wound from healing.
3. Norman coming back but Gwen staying dead was to me a karmic injustice
4.There were dozens of OTHER characters who had "died" but been brought back, so Why not Gwen as well?
5.I grew up watching Gwen and Peter's relationship grow and develop and, at the time naturally anticipated their relationship to play out the way most other relationships like this played out, marriage, settle down kids blah, blah, blah.
6. seeing all these other things that had transpired told me that Gwen's death was not something that was set in stone, that she COULD be brought back if the writers cared.

Do I sound irrational? Maybe, but not anymore irrational than the people who raised a stink about MJ getting killed in an aircraft explosion or those that had a s**t fit over OMD, or the people who are adamantly opposed to bringing Gwen back.

Anyway, those are my reasons in a nutshell.

Alright, after reading that lengthy piece I must say that you are quite the passionate guy. You remind me of KurtW something (sorry about that, Kurt)

However, I have a question for you, did Peter's relationship with Gwen really grow in those old Amazing issues. I have read them recently, and to be honest, I genuinely believe that Peter and Gwen were in a unhealthy relationship. It felt that Peter was making the same mistakes with Gwen by not telling her that he is in fact Spider-Man. From the "confrontation" with Captain Stacy, the party incident, Captain Stacy's dead, her departure to London, her return and lastly, her passing in ASM #121, I have a sense that they were in a odd situation with Peter's dual life causing problems and whatnot. Plus, there's Peter's unwillingness at times that caused me as a reader

Nevertheless, I will say that there could be a story with Gwen coming back but didn't Conway already wrote that story with the original Clone Saga? Furthermore, I don't want to see this event undone, Gwen's death was a shocking event felt all throughout the industry at that time. It signified the end of the Silver Age and in turn basically kickstarted the Bronze Age of Comic Books.

Okay, that's enough. Thank for your time.

[dddaaavvv]

You want to turn Peter's world upside down have the real Gwen Stacy show back up alive and healthy. Not a clone. The real thing. This puts Peter in one heck of a spot. Clearly while he still misses Gwen he has moved past her dying. Having her show back up and be proven to be the real thing would put him in an interesting spot. How does he respond? Clearly Peter is probably the first person she would probably go to because frankly unlike the movies in the comics it was shown to just be her dad and her and with him already gone she wouldn't really have any family to turn to that we know of.

I guess one thing that makes me impatient is have to repeat myself over and over again. First, Peter responds the way the writers want him to. Second, The Stacy family is filth rich and living at the Stacy estate so she would have her uncle and her cousin Jill as well as some other I can't think of right now Then again she still has all of her old friends who are still around. MJ, Harry Flash, Aunt May, etc. Any way you wanted to go the writers could fix this without even trying

So what would Peter do? How would he help her or would he want to push her away to make sure she's "safe" and doesn't suffer the same fate again? On top of that you would now have a 10 year age difference between Gwen and Peter and how do they handle that? There is that whole Sins Past thing that would probably come up and does Gwen ever get ot meet her children and what does she think of what has happened to Gab? There is the fact that Gwen never found out Peter is Spider-man. Would Peter help her while still trying to hide that from her? If he tells her how does she handle that? If she does find out how do her and Peter handle him maybe being the one who killed her? There is also the MJ factor. MJ has pretty much pushed Peter out of her life and I think it's easier for her to do because Peter doesn't really have anyone else to be with. Does having the other great love of his life showing up alive well change that? It opens the door for the Jackal to come back and as much as I hate to say this probably reopens the door for the clone saga to be revisited

.

Again, having to repeat myself, Read post #101, THEN before you ask a lot of nitpicky questions skim my other posts and you will find answers to some of the bigger questions you might have.
As for your other questions, they sound like some juicy material for the writers to work with.

So I think there are many stories that could be told if they bring the real Gwen back. My issue has been and will remain I am not sure how you bring her back and I wouldn't want them to just go oh yeah hey Gwen's back. I would want it to be a story that would be worthy of an event they have avoided for 40 years. On top of that I have feeling even if they bring back the real Gwen it will only be a matter of time till she dies again as I think MJ is his true destiny and I don't see how you can have Peter say yeah I pick MJ over you Gwen without looking like a jerk. Like I said before I think the stuff in the middle with a Gwen return would be really good. I just think the return and more than likely death wouldn't be very good and in the case of the death probably couldn't be nearly as powerful as the first one.

You want a good story? Let me sit down with my outline and a good writer and I could give you a GREAT story.
Well, I think Gwen is Peter's true destiny and Goblin disrupted that. Gwen wouldn't have to ultimately die. She could get married to Peter and have several good years together before something would cause them to go their separate ways, but still remain friends.

[dddaaavvv]

Alright, after reading that lengthy piece I must say that you are quite the passionate guy. You remind me of KurtW something (sorry about that, Kurt)

Kurt is passionate but I'M the fanatic here! LOL

However, I have a question for you, did Peter's relationship with Gwen really grow in those old Amazing issues. I have read them recently, and to be honest, I genuinely believe that Peter and Gwen were in a unhealthy relationship. It felt that Peter was making the same mistakes with Gwen by not telling her that he is in fact Spider-Man. From the "confrontation" with Captain Stacy, the party incident, Captain Stacy's dead, her departure to London, her return and lastly, her passing in ASM #121, I have a sense that they were in a odd situation with Peter's dual life causing problems and whatnot. Plus, there's Peter's unwillingness at times that caused me as a reader

A decent writer could fix all that. Hell, I could write an outline to fix all that and I'm not even a writer!

Nevertheless, I will say that there could be a story with Gwen coming back but didn't Conway already wrote that story with the original Clone Saga? Furthermore, I don't want to see this event undone, Gwen's death was a shocking event felt all throughout the industry at that time. It signified the end of the Silver Age and in turn basically kickstarted the Bronze Age of Comic Books.

At the end of the first clone saga, Peter in fact asked clone Gwen to stay so they could work things out. She turned him down. Had she stayed, their love could have been rekindled and played out the way it would have been had she not died, I could have accepted that. But that didn't happen.

As for the silver/bronze age stuff that was 40 years ago. We're in an entirely NEW age full of new possibilities. Bringing Gwen back could signify THAT. Call it the beginning of the CRYSTAL age, or the PLATINUM age of Comics!

Okay, that's enough. Thank for your time.

Thank YOU for your respect.

[dddaaavvv]

Here's a scenario if you wanted to go the mystical OMD approach to bring Gwen back. Aunt May dies, Peter is distraught. He has already had a number of misfortunes leading up to this and now this just adds insult to injury. He's in his darkest hour and some benevolent being, Watcher, Eternity, or maybe Dr. Strange puts in a good word for him with one of his powerful buddies, whatever, and they decide he needs something good to happen to prevent him from falling into a crippling guilt complex and a hopeless, unrecoverable depression and they decide that bringing back Gwen would provide just the right amount of mitigation to allow him to recover, since he still has so much more to do in the world and has a place in the grand order of the universe.

It was time for May to go, but Gwen's life was not supposed to end that way so, this would correct this, and in a small way restore some order to the universe.

[Qrx2]

I guess one thing that makes me impatient is have to repeat myself over and over again. First, Peter responds the way the writers want him to. Second, The Stacy family is filth rich and living at the Stacy estate so she would have her uncle and her cousin Jill as well as some other I can't think of right now Then again she still has all of her old friends who are still around. MJ, Harry Flash, Aunt May, etc. Any way you wanted to go the writers could fix this without even trying

.

Again, having to repeat myself, Read post #101, THEN before you ask a lot of nitpicky questions skim my other posts and you will find answers to some of the bigger questions you might have.
As for your other questions, they sound like some juicy material for the writers to work with.




You want a good story? Let me sit down with my outline and a good writer and I could give you a GREAT story.
Well, I think Gwen is Peter's true destiny and Goblin disrupted that. Gwen wouldn't have to ultimately die. She could get married to Peter and have several good years together before something would cause them to go their separate ways, but still remain friends.

I wasn't asking Nitpicky questions at all. I was offering what I thought would be good stories to tell if they brought Gwen back. If you would look at my posts on the subject you would see I am in the bring Gwen back camp. If all you are going to do is talk down to me because you don't happen to like the fact that I might not share all your view points I am done here.

[exile001]

As for the silver/bronze age stuff that was 40 years ago. We're in an entirely NEW age full of new possibilities.

As someone who has "only" been reading comics since the mid-late 90s, I have to ask a question at this point. My entire comic reading life Gwen has been dead, and this has been used as a staple of Spider-man's character. This will be true of a lot of current readers and certainly the new readers Marvel is trying to court.

With all due respect to your love for her, where is the relevance to bringing back Gwen to a modern audience? Who would care, other than people who have been reading for 40+ years.

You say we are in a new age with new possibilities, so why rehash a relationship that ended 40+ years ago and was a defining moment of Spider-man's character?

That said, her exposure in ASM and ASM2 certainly would make this the best time to do it.