Anyone Want Gwen Back?

[Aruran.]

Wouldn't Capt. America the First Avenger just reinforce the idea of leaving Bucky dead?

Wouldn't X-2: X-Men United just reinforce the idea of leaving Jean Grey Dead?

But did they really die? I mean in both movies they fell into water and no one looked for the bodies.

I get that you want Gwen back, but Gwen wasn't someone who was a superhero or a villain, which is a major need in a revival story. Normal people don't come back to life in comics, the non-normal ones do.

[Kevinroc]

Wouldn't Capt. America the First Avenger just reinforce the idea of leaving Bucky dead?

Wouldn't X-2: X-Men United just reinforce the idea of leaving Jean Grey Dead?

False equivalence. (Although leaving Jean dead after X2 would have spared us X3. I don't see how that's a bad thing. )

But did they really die? I mean in both movies they fell into water and no one looked for the bodies.

I get that you want Gwen back, but Gwen wasn't someone who was a superhero or a villain, which is a major need in a revival story. Normal people don't come back to life in comics, the non-normal ones do.

Bucky was a case of "never found the body." Sebastian Stan was under contract for multiple films before Cap: TWS was released. I wasn't surprised when they eventually did reveal The Winter Soldier.

All throughout X2, they had been hinting at Jean's connection to the Phoenix Force.

Gwen is different. TASM 1 and TASM 2 foreshadowed her terrible fate. Between George Stacy's dying wish in TASM 1 to Gwen's graduation speech near the beginning of TASM 2, it wasn't a surprise that Gwen met her end. One of the posters for TASM 2 even evoked the cover of Amazing Spider-Man #121.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

We can't be sure of that. Gwen fever could very well be on the upward swing and with all this new interest in her, "The Day Gwen Stacy Came Back" might be right around the corner and Gwen returning in ASM 4 or 5 is also possible.

Or it could be the upswing of people feeling that Gwen's story ends with her death and that it is a good element within the Spider-Man franchise as is.

That's sort of the problem with arguing possibilities- they have no evidence to support them, meaning they can simply be dismissed without evidence. It's much like the argument that her return could lead to a lot of good stories. Possibly. But there's also an equally good chance it could lead to a lot of bad stories and undermine the reputation of the entire mythos.

That's why I personally don't look towards what may be a good idea. I look towards who is working on it and what their premise for the story is. If it is done by a talented creator and it is an interesting premises, then it might be an entertaining story. But even talented people have bungled good ideas. And I doubt something that is as sensitive as Gwen's fate is something that wouldn't have tremendous hurdles to overcome, for an outcome that I don't think is something that is worthwhile.

Box office receipts for ASM 2 have been good which could stir discussion about bringing Gwen back. If the idea shows enough potential profit, it could happen, whether you like it or not. Sorry.

But the film made a lot of money featuring Gwen's death. Having her death in a successful film may not inspire people to bring her back. Quite the opposite, it might have people want to keep her dead in order to honor her character's arc in the comic and in the movies.

And box office gross does not mean that Marvel will change a long standing character's status. The first three Spider-Man films made billions at the box office, but it didn't stop Marvel from breaking up Peter and MJ, the key couple in all three films. And a successful film featuring Gwen's death doesn't seem to be the thing that would bring her back. If anything, it seems likely to cement her fate in the comics.

[dddaaavvv]

False equivalence. (Although leaving Jean dead after X2 would have spared us X3. I don't see how that's a bad thing. )

Completely valid equivalence. ANY of these character can be brought back or not at the prerogative of the producer. Hell, if the producer felt like he could make a Blockbuster out it, he could bring back Uncle Ben!

Bucky was a case of "never found the body." Sebastian Stan was under contract for multiple films before Cap: TWS was released. I wasn't surprised when they eventually did reveal The Winter Soldier.

All throughout X2, they had been hinting at Jean's connection to the Phoenix Force.

Gwen is different. TASM 1 and TASM 2 foreshadowed her terrible fate. Between George Stacy's dying wish in TASM 1 to Gwen's graduation speech near the beginning of TASM 2, it wasn't a surprise that Gwen met her end. One of the posters for TASM 2 even evoked the cover of Amazing Spider-Man #121.

That Doesn't mean that she couldn't be brought back in ASM 4, and, as I said to someone else, If the producers think there's enough money in doing it, they'll bring her back in ASM 4, whether you like it or not. Sorry, but nothing is carved in stone.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Completely valid equivalence. ANY of these character can be brought back or not at the prerogative of the producer. Hell, if the producer felt like he could make a Blockbuster out it, he could bring back Uncle Ben!

Again, he could. But that doesn't mean they would get a blockbuster out of it.

It's not enough to say "It might be good." You can justify practically anything that way. You could even justify going from the dark tone that was set with the Dark Knight and have a campy throwback to the 60's Batman movie by saying "You could make a blockbuster out of it." Just because it could happen doesn't mean it will. I'm fairly certain that was the same reasoning behind the Battleship movie- you could make a blockbuster out of this. Or the A-Team film. Or a lot of other flops that didn't connect with the audiences. Something possibly being a blockbuster isn't the same as something being a blockbuster. And since the death of Gwen doesn't seem to be turning people away or causing a ruckus to return her, I don't see how the filmmakers would regard her return as being something that is a guaranteed win.

That Doesn't mean that she couldn't be brought back in ASM 4, and, as I said to someone else, If the producers think there's enough money in doing it, they'll bring her back in ASM 4, whether you like it or not. Sorry, but nothing is carved in stone.

True. But that also means that Gwen's return isn't carved in stone either. And given that the filmmakers and fans seem intent on honoring the story of Gwen's death, even Emma Stone saying that she had no problems with her death, it doesn't seem likely that she will come back. Especially since the filmmakers might be more interested in bringing in that red-headed girl from the first set of Spider-Man films that made over a billion dollars at the box office and became a cultural milestone for an entire generation, to possibly rub some of that success off onto these films.

[Kevinroc]

Completely valid equivalence. ANY of these character can be brought back or not at the prerogative of the producer. Hell, if the producer felt like he could make a Blockbuster out it, he could bring back Uncle Ben!

That would be a horrible Spider-Man producer if they brought back Uncle Ben.

That Doesn't mean that she couldn't be brought back in ASM 4, and, as I said to someone else, If the producers think there's enough money in doing it, they'll bring her back in ASM 4, whether you like it or not. Sorry, but nothing is carved in stone.

I get that Peter/Gwen is your ship of choice and that is totally cool. But I think you're letting your strong desires for your ship cloud your judgments on what will happen in future Spider-Man movies. It's not a 50/50 on if Gwen will be coming back or not.

The reason why using Bucky or Jean is a horrible example is because of their famous resurrection stories (and Jean is currently "dead" and "alive" in the comics anyway because of time-travel shenanigans). And I know, Ultimate Gwen has a resurrection story of her own (and good on her for getting better) but Ultimate Gwen was also a very different situation than Amazing-Movie Gwen.

[dddaaavvv]

Or it could be the upswing of people feeling that Gwen's story ends with her death and that it is a good element within the Spider-Man franchise as is.

That's sort of the problem with arguing possibilities- they have no evidence to support them, meaning they can simply be dismissed without evidence. It's much like the argument that her return could lead to a lot of good stories. Possibly. But there's also an equally good chance it could lead to a lot of bad stories and undermine the reputation of the entire mythos.

That's why I personally don't look towards what may be a good idea. I look towards who is working on it and what their premise for the story is. If it is done by a talented creator and it is an interesting premises, then it might be an entertaining story. But even talented people have bungled good ideas. And I doubt something that is as sensitive as Gwen's fate is something that wouldn't have tremendous hurdles to overcome, for an outcome that I don't think is something that is worthwhile.

I appreciate your point of view, I just see things differently. Her return COULD lead to a lot of good stories, If the writers are motivated. It all depends on if the desire is there. If the writers can dig themselves out of OMD, They can easily make Gwen's return a rich canvas on which to create.

You don't thing bringing back Gwen is a good idea. I didn't think killing her off was a good idea. I also don't think resurrecting Norman, Aunt May (three times) and several other characters were good ideas. But the writers did it anyway. I don't view Gwen's death as being something sensitive, just as an injustice that needs to be corrected. OMD, BND, OMIT, THESE were hurdles and if the writers could polish those turds, Bringing back Gwen would be nothing.

But the film made a lot of money featuring Gwen's death. Having her death in a successful film may not inspire people to bring her back. Quite the opposite, it might have people want to keep her dead in order to honor her character's arc in the comic and in the movies.

That certainly wasn't the case in X-Men the Last Stand or Captain America: the Winter Soldier. In fact it made MORE money!

And box office gross does not mean that Marvel will change a long standing character's status. The first three Spider-Man films made billions at the box office, but it didn't stop Marvel from breaking up Peter and MJ, the key couple in all three films. And a successful film featuring Gwen's death doesn't seem to be the thing that would bring her back. If anything, it seems likely to cement her fate in the comics.

If Marvel thinks they can increase comic sales by bringing back Gwen they will. Her fate is far from sealed.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

I appreciate your point of view, I just see things differently. Her return COULD lead to a lot of good stories, If the writers are motivated. It all depends on if the desire is there. If the writers can dig themselves out of OMD, They can easily make Gwen's return a rich canvas on which to create.

I personally don't think the writers have dug themselves out of OMD as of yet. They've ignored it, but that isn't the same as digging themselves out of it.

But, once again, an argument cannot simply be justified solely on the premises that it might be a good idea, or it might lead to good stories. Practically everything can be justified that way. And without evidence, the argument can be dismissed summarily so. It might be a good idea, it might be a great idea. But the proven history shows that keeping Gwen dead hasn't led to a detriment to the franchise, and it is actually one of the most well respected and iconic aspects of the series.

In addition, to use the same argument, if writers are motivated, if they have the right desires, they might tell even better stories by keeping Gwen in the grave than by keeping her alive.

You don't thing bringing back Gwen is a good idea. I didn't think killing her off was a good idea. I also don't think resurrecting Norman, Aunt May (three times) and several other characters were good ideas. But the writers did it anyway. I don't view Gwen's death as being something sensitive, just as an injustice that needs to be corrected. OMD, BND, OMIT, THESE were hurdles and if the writers could polish those turds, Bringing back Gwen would be nothing.

Right. I don't think they were good ideas. And I still don't. I didn't mind JMS' work with Aunt May's character, but I don't think that her death was something that should have been undone either.

Just because a creator or creators did questionable things in the past does not mean that further questionable decisions are justified. A bad story isn't justified with another bad story. The goal is to make comics better, not to continually follow the worst case examples.

That certainly wasn't the case in X-Men the Last Stand or Captain America: the Winter Soldier. In fact it made MORE money!

But in the case of those films, they already had the comics to draw from and follow, which showed that the stories could work.

There is no story from the comics depicting Gwen's return outside of the Clone Saga. So there is no basis for filmmakers to look at and see that it is something that could work. Quite the opposite, as the bulk of the material suggests that keeping Gwen dead isn't a detriment to the series.

If Marvel thinks they can increase comic sales by bringing back Gwen they will. Her fate is far from sealed.

And if they feel they can make more money keeping her dead, they will. Again, the argument works both ways.

[dddaaavvv]

That would be a horrible Spider-Man producer if they brought back Uncle Ben.

Unless it was done in a way that made Marvel a fortune, then Marvel wouldn't care if you thought the producer was horrible.

I get that Peter/Gwen is your ship of choice and that is totally cool. But I think you're letting your strong desires for your ship cloud your judgments on what will happen in future Spider-Man movies. It's not a 50/50 on if Gwen will be coming back or not.

I'm not saying it is 50/50, but the movie is doing very well and Winter Soldier did better than First Avenger, so somebody at Marvel I'm sure is toying with the idea. Hell whose bright idea was it to bring back Coulson? It was unnecessary but it worked, so who knows? Also my judgment isn't cloudy. I know it's totally out of my hands as to whether Gwen comes back, but there is nothing actually stopping her from coming back if the producers want it.

The reason why using Bucky or Jean is a horrible example is because of their famous resurrection stories (and Jean is currently "dead" and "alive" in the comics anyway because of time-travel shenanigans). And I know, Ultimate Gwen has a resurrection story of her own (and good on her for getting better) but Ultimate Gwen was also a very different situation than Amazing-Movie Gwen.

First to a certain extent comparing movies to comics is apples and oranges. The history of Spidey in the comic universe is significantly different from the Movie universe. Gwen was in high school, had a mother, siblings, etc. That 's just Gwen. The rest of ASM 1&2 is just as convoluted and inconsistent with comic history. I've never read Ultimate Spidey, but any comic story can be modified to suit the movie, so that would put Gwen back on the table for resurrection if the writers see fit. If Jean and Bucky can have famous resurrection stories, so can Gwen. She can be brought back in the comic now and have her brought back in ASM 4, or Venom or Sinister Six.

I know that Peter/MJ is your ship and it's cool with me too. But your reasons for wanting her to stay dead are just as valid or invalid as mine for bringing her back. It's all a matter of point of view and motivation.

Kevin, my friend, We are going to around and around on this again! How about you start a thread "Anyone Want MJ Back?" There you can make positive comments about MJ, and I'll stay here and make positive comments about Gwen, and we can diffuse the possibility of exchanges becoming hostile. Lead by example and keep the Mods off of our backs. Whaddaya say, buddy?

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Unless it was done in a way that made Marvel a fortune, then Marvel wouldn't care if you thought the producer was horrible.

But keeping him- and Gwen- dead has already made Marvel a fortune. And continues to do so. So why risk something that might make them a fortune over something that has made them a fortune.

I'm not saying it is 50/50, but the movie is doing very well and Winter Soldier did better than First Avenger, so somebody at Marvel I'm sure is toying with the idea. Hell whose bright idea was it to bring back Coulson? It was unnecessary but it worked, so who knows? Also my judgment isn't cloudy. I know it's totally out of my hands as to whether Gwen comes back, but there is nothing actually stopping her from coming back if the producers want it.

Actually, Coulson's return is a good example of how something you think would work out turns out to not work as well as planned.

After his death in the Avengers, fans were eager for his return. Either via an LMD or as the Vision. When his return was announced, people were interested. But when Agents of SHIELD got going, response became rather lackluster.

You'd think that given the response to Coulson's demise would have meant his return would bring in revenue. But as it stands, his return is causing a lot of diminished returns.

First to a certain extent comparing movies to comics is apples and oranges. The history of Spidey in the comic universe is significantly different from the Movie universe. Gwen was in high school, had a mother, siblings, etc. That 's just Gwen. The rest of ASM 1&2 is just as convoluted and inconsistent with comic history. I've never read Ultimate Spidey, but any comic story can be modified to suit the movie, so that would put Gwen back on the table for resurrection if the writers see fit. If Jean and Bucky can have famous resurrection stories, so can Gwen. She can be brought back in the comic now and have her brought back in ASM 4, or Venom or Sinister Six.

But the heart of her story remains the same- Peter's love who is killed in battle with a Goblin. That's the main arc to draw from.

[dddaaavvv]

But keeping him- and Gwen- dead has already made Marvel a fortune. And continues to do so. So why risk something that might make them a fortune over something that has made them a fortune.

Keeping Gwen dead didn't make Marvel a fortune. In the case of overall sales Gwen being dead or alive is insignificant.

Actually, Coulson's return is a good example of how something you think would work out turns out to not work as well as planned.

After his death in the Avengers, fans were eager for his return. Either via an LMD or as the Vision. When his return was announced, people were interested. But when Agents of SHIELD got going, response became rather lackluster.

You'd think that given the response to Coulson's demise would have meant his return would bring in revenue. But as it stands, his return is causing a lot of diminished returns.

I never said anything about Coulson's affect on sales. I simply used Coulson as an example another character that came back from the dead. He has no relevance in this discussion of sales.

In fact this whole discussion is getting absurd because we're only talking of hypotheticals and speculation. One good or bad story one resurrection or another is not going to topple this franchise. It will simply send it in a different direction. If the marketing research suggests that bringing back Gwen would increase sales the he might consider taking a gamble and doing it. If not he won't.

But the heart of her story remains the same- Peter's love who is killed in battle with a Goblin. That's the main arc to draw from.

From your point of view. From my point of view the heart of the story is the love between two people who have a lot of obstacles in their way. To me the main arc to draw from them being able to overcome all obstacles including death. You want to see her death as being an end to support your point of view and agenda whatever that is. My agenda is bring Pete and Gwen back together to live out the life the were supposed to, and to that end, her death is nothing more than an obstacle.

I don't know specifically what you agenda is, if you hold her death sacred, if you don't like her character, if Pete and someone else is your ship or what. I have never hidden my agenda. Gwen and Peter reunited to live out the life there were denied.

What's YOUR agenda Robert?

[Tracer Bullet]

They can bring the clone back. But they need to retcon the twins and the Norman thing back to hell.

[dddaaavvv]

They can bring the clone back. But they need to retcon the twins and the Norman thing back to hell.

Amen, brother

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Keeping Gwen dead didn't make Marvel a fortune. In the case of overall sales Gwen being dead or alive is insignificant.

If the overall sales of Gwen being dead or alive are insignificant, then why justify her return by claiming the fortune that Marvel would make upon her return?

And what criteria are you using to determine the amount Marvel makes? Why is it that Marvel would make more money upon a returned Gwen than they did with the previous outside media interpretations like the Raimi Spider-Man films? Especially when they still have the same deal with Sony that they did during the incredibly profitable Raimi films.

I never said anything about Coulson's affect on sales. I simply used Coulson as an example another character that came back from the dead. He has no relevance in this discussion of sales.

No. But I was making a comparison on how the belief that a beloved character's return would result in a renewed interest, similar to the argument regarding the interest in Gwen or the passion and drive of the creators would fuel her return. And there was also the argument made about the fortune Marvel could stand to make upon her return. But Coulson's return didn't result in entirely positive reviews, especially regarding the secret of his resurrection. Nor did it cause Agents of SHIELD to become a ratings or commercial juggernaut.

In fact this whole discussion is getting absurd because we're only talking of hypotheticals and speculation. One good or bad story one resurrection or another is not going to topple this franchise. It will simply send it in a different direction. If the marketing research suggests that bringing back Gwen would increase sales the he might consider taking a gamble and doing it. If not he won't.

And we are responding in hypotheticals and speculation, to show how simply saying that her return might result in a fortune or possibly good stories is not in and of itself a good justification for her return.

From your point of view. From my point of view the heart of the story is the love between two people who have a lot of obstacles in their way. To me the main arc to draw from them being able to overcome all obstacles including death. You want to see her death as being an end to support your point of view and agenda whatever that is. My agenda is bring Pete and Gwen back together to live out the life the were supposed to, and to that end, her death is nothing more than an obstacle.

That may be the case. But a major part of her arc from the comics is that she died in a battle between Peter and one of his worst enemies. And she never came back. The reason the characters returned in the films Winter Soldier and X-Men 3: The Last Stand was because in the comics the characters returned to life as well. The Captain America films did not on their own decide to bring back Bucky. The X-Men films were already going by the Phoenix story established in the comics. The Spider-Man films don't have that established template to work from. So there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to return Gwen of their own accord.

[Kevinroc]

I just want to point out that Disney/Marvel make no money at all on the Spider-Man movies. Sony and Disney/Marvel renegotiated their contracts before TASM 1. Sony keeps all the movie money and Disney/Marvel get all the merchandising rights, all the animation rights and everything else.

(This is the real reason Spectacular Spider-Man came to an end. Disney was not going to pay to produce a cartoon they did not fully own.)

Unless it was done in a way that made Marvel a fortune, then Marvel wouldn't care if you thought the producer was horrible.

As I just said, Disney/Marvel make no money off of the movies. So those movies could do whatever they wanted and they still wouldn't matter to Marvel.

I'm not saying it is 50/50, but the movie is doing very well and Winter Soldier did better than First Avenger, so somebody at Marvel I'm sure is toying with the idea. Hell whose bright idea was it to bring back Coulson? It was unnecessary but it worked, so who knows? Also my judgment isn't cloudy. I know it's totally out of my hands as to whether Gwen comes back, but there is nothing actually stopping her from coming back if the producers want it.

The question is if the producers want it. But whether they want to or not has no impact on the comics since those movies are made independently of Marvel. So even on the big chance that the producers would want Gwen back, it doesn't mean that the people at Marvel would want Gwen back.

(And vice versa regarding what Marvel does and what the Spidey film producers do.)

First to a certain extent comparing movies to comics is apples and oranges. The history of Spidey in the comic universe is significantly different from the Movie universe. Gwen was in high school, had a mother, siblings, etc. That 's just Gwen. The rest of ASM 1&2 is just as convoluted and inconsistent with comic history. I've never read Ultimate Spidey, but any comic story can be modified to suit the movie, so that would put Gwen back on the table for resurrection if the writers see fit. If Jean and Bucky can have famous resurrection stories, so can Gwen. She can be brought back in the comic now and have her brought back in ASM 4, or Venom or Sinister Six.

The movies could do whatever they wanted. Marvel could do whatever they wanted. But it seems like they have very little interest in reviving Gwen in the 616 Universe. Jean and Bucky have the advantage of being costumed characters. Being a normal human didn't stop Ultimate Gwen from getting better but her situation was very different from her mainstream counterpart or her Amazing film counterpart.

(Only in the world of fantastical fiction can we refer to coming back from the dead as "getting better.")

I know that Peter/MJ is your ship and it's cool with me too. But your reasons for wanting her to stay dead are just as valid or invalid as mine for bringing her back. It's all a matter of point of view and motivation.

I don't especially care as to whether or not Gwen gets brought back. Could it lead to good stories? Possibly. Could it lead to horrible stories? Possibly. I'm just trying to tell you not to get your hopes up.

Speaking very generally, people have a habit of convincing themselves that things will fall in a way that they want and sometimes that doesn't happen.

Kevin, my friend, We are going to around and around on this again! How about you start a thread "Anyone Want MJ Back?" There you can make positive comments about MJ, and I'll stay here and make positive comments about Gwen, and we can diffuse the possibility of exchanges becoming hostile. Lead by example and keep the Mods off of our backs. Whaddaya say, buddy?

We're just having a discussion. I don't think we're being terrible to each other or anything like that.