Marvel Cancels Upcoming Milo Manara Variants

[Midnight_v]

@BURKA BABES. DB105, I laughed so so hard. Thank you.

The danger to the rest of us is that a loud minority will influence the entertainment that is available from mainstream sources (small indie sources are less vulnerable to these pressures), and the preferences of that minority may or may not be to our taste. Even if in this case it is, one should still be wary of this kind of things. The next target may be something we like.

This is one of the most poignant things said in this whole thread. I really appreciate you for this. The conversation being had here is bigger than "scheduling conflicts" and shouldn't be dismissed because ultimately, when you look at the initial outcry and the semi-apology letter that followed, you realize the argument is in many ways about "Who has the reins" here. It isn't good for anyone to allow one particular agenda to influence the entire genre because they're the loudest. It's a thing it happens and has happened fight against it people, please.

[cuttlefish]

I think it's several things; though this is guess work (not fact)
a) the passing of time. What was "less offensive"/things people just put up with even though they didn't like it 5 years ago, is just not acceptable now. More and more people are objecting to over sexualization of women (in contrast to men); as they should. The same way LGBT characters are allowed to kiss more often than ever before, because it's no longer acceptable that they have to "kiss in theory" where no-one can see.
b) Greg Land on art was already hard enough to swallow for a female lead comic (describe as something woemn would like), this was the straw that broke the camel's back
c) this cover was far more absurd overtly sexualisation than his previous ones. Storm and Psylocke both wear thongs, he got away with those (though the Psylocke one is vile).

In 5 years time (when this kind of thing will be even less acceptable), if Greg Land is still doing what he does, I'd be surprised if he'll still have a job.

Yeah, I think a big part of it is the fact that Marvel is making an ongoing and explicit effort to appeal to broader audiences and specifically to women, for which effort I absolutely applaud them, but with that larger audience comes more scrutiny. If you're going to debut female Thor on The View and announce the new Ms Marvel via The New York Times, that means now you have people watching that have not been resigned by long exposure to the objectification of women that Manara's work represents, which is all to the good as far as I'm concerned.

[Imraith Nimphais]

YesYesYESSS! to more Manara covers...eventually!

[The_Greatest_Username]

Nah, it will be like this:

I see your burka babes and raise you strong female characters:

image.jpg

[TresDias]

Yeah, I think a big part of it is the fact that Marvel is making an ongoing and explicit effort to appeal to broader audiences and specifically to women, for which effort I absolutely applaud them, but with that larger audience comes more scrutiny. If you're going to debut female Thor on The View and announce the new Ms Marvel via The New York Times, that means now you have people watching that have not been resigned by long exposure to the objectification of women that Manara's work represents, which is all to the good as far as I'm concerned.

I know you were talking to Kieran_Frost here, but your post really is a perfect response to the post from Midnight_v which immediately preceded yours:

The conversation being had here is bigger than "scheduling conflicts" and shouldn't be dismissed because ultimately, when you look at the initial outcry and the semi-apology letter that followed, you realize the argument is in many ways about "Who has the reins" here. It isn't good for anyone to allow one particular agenda to influence the entire genre because they're the loudest. It's a thing it happens and has happened fight against it people, please.

[Sea Hound]

I think there's a bit of catastrophising about the likely impact on Marvel's output of internet pressures. Yes Marvel are trying to increase their female comics fan base; (and stats show it's working) and yes they probably will make some smallish policy changes based on criticism of their treatment of female characters. In fact they've already started.


Let's look at the changes they have made:

More female solos: Ms Marvel, Captain Marvel, She Hulk, Black Widow, Elektra, X-Men, Storm, and Spider Woman, Thor and Angela (all upcoming).
Mixed sales results, but some really great creators and good reads. I'd call it a win for male and female fans. In fact in my opinion some of the best books Marvel are putting out are on that list.

A handful of costume changes. Costumes change all the time, but I can only think of two which were (probably) changed because of criticism: Captain Marvel, and Psylocke. Personally, I don't miss the thongs at all. I can't offhand think of many other costumes which need changing, (Angela?) mostly Marvel is doing all right.

Less completely overtly impossible anatomy. Does anyone really miss the brokeback poses? I think women look sexier when they're not distorted myself.

Less "fridging" of female characters and slightly more females in each team on average.

All in all the whole reading experience isn't any worse so far, in fact I think it's better.


In the future what are the likely changes?
Possibly more female creators. Marvel has some very good ones on their books at the moment, but it's still a small percentage. Personally, I'll read books by either sex if the writing is good, but I'd like to see some more variety creatively (including gender/race/sexuality etc) because I enjoy a range of viewpoints.

Maybe some art changes. I think marvel will still hire artists like Land (who I have other issues with, but that's another story) and Manara, but will be a bit tighter editorially on just how cheesecakey the images they release are. I expect that the impact on the readers of any change really won't be huge. It's about toning down maybe 5% of the most objectifying imagery, so as not to put off a new market Marvel is trying hard to attract.

More advertising on non traditional fronts, aimed at potential female readers.


No one is seriously expecting the removal of all babes from comics.

Perhaps the possibility of more readers, which would mean less cancellation of smaller comics could be seen as the opportunity it is?

[db105]

I think there's a bit of catastrophising about the likely impact on Marvel's output of internet pressures. Yes Marvel are trying to increase their female comics fan base; (and stats show it's working) and yes they probably will make some smallish policy changes based on criticism of their treatment of female characters. In fact they've already started.

Not catastrophising myself, I'm sure there won't be any catastrophes and that we won't be seeing superheroines in burkas. However, one reason I'm not much interested in Hollywood's output is how formulaic most of their work is. Since it's entertainment for the masses they take pains to avoid offending anyone and the result is depressingly safe and uniform. With the success of Marvel and DC's movies (particularly Marvel's) the economic stakes are much higher and the pressure to avoid any PR problems is much stronger.

Sure, I can live without that butt-in-the-air Spider-Woman cover. I couldn't care less about it either way. What I don't like is a group of screaming people getting to decide what Marvel is allowed or not allowed to publish, because I know that will end up affecting me. I like people voting with their wallets, I like people raving about what they love and asking for more of it. I don't like people doing PR campaigns to prevent the content they don't like from getting published by big companies.

[TresDias]

That's exactly how the world should work, to be honest. Most of the time the public is powerless to affect the world around us. Voting with our wallets is all we have.

In any case, no one is dictating what Marvel can do. A decision was placed before Marvel to put their own money with their mouth is -- and, honestly, other than saying they will give more thought to these things in the future (which they need to if they want to grow), little has been affected. It's not like they cancelled the Spider-Woman cover or won't be working with the artist again in the future. They're just (hopefully) going to ask themselves "How will this image fit into our goals?" going forward.

[SXVA]

Not catastrophising myself, I'm sure there won't be any catastrophes and that we won't be seeing superheroines in burkas. However, one reason I'm not much interested in Hollywood's output is how formulaic most of their work is. Since it's entertainment for the masses they take pains to avoid offending anyone and the result is depressingly safe and uniform. With the success of Marvel and DC's movies (particularly Marvel's) the economic stakes are much higher and the pressure to avoid any PR problems is much stronger.

Sure, I can live without that butt-in-the-air Spider-Woman cover. I couldn't care less about it either way. What I don't like is a group of screaming people getting to decide what Marvel is allowed or not allowed to publish, because I know that will end up affecting me. I like people voting with their wallets, I like people raving about what they love and asking for more of it. I don't like people doing PR campaigns to prevent the content they don't like from getting published by big companies.

Yeah, i don't think many people speaking out on this give a crap about the cover... that's not the issue, it's that people are forcing their will, their views, their opinions, their preferences on the entirety (within the context of how the outrage/outcry took shape) and i can only speak for myself, but that doesn't sit well with me. I respect that my views/opinions aren't the only one's that matter and have no desire to force the world into my own image, i can't even imagine the arrogance it would take to try and make it so only my own perspective on things mattered... I also believe in building up rather than tearing down, instead of trying to tear down that cover and put a stop to it, for example... why not focus those energies toward a more positive goal like building up something that you do in fact like, and that fits within your personal views/opinions, build up things that support that... buy things that support that, positive discussions about it, etc.... this would have a much more positive outcome then focusing on tearing down or censoring something you don't particularly agree with.

I don't care for that particular cover, i wouldn't pay the overpriced amount it costs (overpriced in my view) or even if it was regular price... but i have absolutely no desire to shut down and stop anyone else from making that choice for themselves. I can't believe that others would feel entitled to do so, it's not surprising... just... amazing in it's absurdity. It wasn't people simply stating they disagreed in their views and preferences, it was people crying out and practically demanding that it shouldn't be. [from my perspective]

[yet another]

Yeah, i don't think many people speaking out on this give a crap about the cover... that's not the issue, it's that people are forcing their will, their views, their opinions, their preferences on the entirety ....

I don't get that, in what way are you or anyone else being forced here?

It's not as if any of the persons and web sites who have spoken out about this cover have any direct power to affect how things are done at Marvel. I haven't even seen any calls for boycotts.

Surely you don't want to suppress free speech when you don't agree with what is being said?

...and the cover will still be published.

[aja_christopher]

Cliche as it may sound, with great power comes great responsibility.

I am a fan of Manara's work (both explicit and non-explicit) and I didn't have issue with his cover(s), outside of the fact that I think he could have done better with the Spiderwoman variant.

However, the reality is that Marvel is seeking to expand their audience and they have to act accordingly. While I can see where there can be an accusation of hypocrisy given the nature of other equally "offensive" artists, as I understand it the "outcry" was over Manara, so that is what has to be addressed directly.

One of my favorite books was (Middleton's) NYX but I could see where going down that road could get Marvel into trouble. It would help if Marvel had a line specifically dedicated to more "adult" fare -- similar to DC's Vertigo -- but so far as I know that doesn't exist.

While I don't think artists should be censored, I likewise think that businesses have a right to focus on making money and avoiding bad publicity. To this day I think that NYX was one of the most promising concepts Marvel ever created, but I likewise can see where the need to protect the "brand" as a whole overrides the right to artistic expression, especially if it might endanger the bottom line.

nyx1.jpg

[SXVA]

I don't get that, in what way are you or anyone else being forced here?

It's not as if any of the persons and web sites who have spoken out about this cover have any direct power to affect how things are done at Marvel. I haven't even seen any calls for boycotts.

Surely you don't want to suppress free speech when you don't agree with what is being said?

As stated at the end of the post,

"It wasn't people simply stating they disagreed in their views and preferences, it was people crying out and practically demanding that it shouldn't be. [from my perspective] "

There's a big difference between disagreeing with something within your own views, opinions, preferences but still making an allowance and consideration for other perspectives, opinions, views to exist.

...and,

Having that perspective, views, opinions as singular where consideration and allowance for variation doesn't exist.

Suggesting that Marvel shouldn't have that cover in an absolute way, is the latter... [for example]

That's saying that because the person doesn't agree with it, it shouldn't be.... even though there's others who might not share that same perspective, it's forcing the one perspective to be, rather than taking into consideration and allowance for variant perspectives.

In reference to your last line... One thing to keep in mind, is that i'm on the side of variant perspectives.... i'm on the side that's saying i might not agree with the cover but my personal opinions, perspective and viewpoint isn't the only one that matters, or a defining absolute in how things should be. That's allowing everyone's perspective consideration and allowance, it allows and considers that people disagree and agree.

[Of Atlantis]

Cliche as it may sound, with great power comes great responsibility.

One of my favorite books was (Middleton's) NYX but I could see where going down that road could get Marvel into trouble. It would help if Marvel had a line specifically dedicated to more "adult" fare -- similar to DC's Vertigo -- but so far as I know that doesn't exist.

Marvel MAX, which is severely underutilized.

[Doc Omega]

Remember when comic books were all about reading and enjoyment? Yeah, neither do I

[Dabrikishaw]

Saw this coming. In hindsight Marvel should have though twice before hiring a porn artist in the first place.