New Avengers #24 Review (w/spoilers)

[Emma's Midriff]

I'm not saying it's weird. I was just speaking academically about moral principles. I laid out what I would find moral a few posts later.

Ah, I guess you're just having trouble seeing the forest through the trees.

[KOSLOX]

It's a morality play, discussing various moral paradigms is hyper relevant.

Heck there are schools of thought that would find Thanos' actions moral; which I can discuss without necessarily giving them approval.

[vitruvian]

I think keeping it small initially was a good move, but that said once they got more information they should have started being more open with that information. Instead they tried to horde their information to the detriment of themselves and the world.

I can certainly see keeping it close until they were sure it was really a recurring issue, or if Black Swan was lying. But by close, I don't mean the Illuminati... I mean the other hero teams and maybe SHIELD. And as soon as they realized the scope of the problem, they should have been pulling all the best minds they could recruit into the pool, even if a fully public announcement was not warranted, on the basis of what could most people actually do at that point. Only once you had a possible solution in place would you need agreement and accountability from the populace as a whole, if said solution involved either sacrifice or a significant moral dilemma.

I could also see being leery of informing off-planet resources at first, given the number of pragmatic/utilitarian galactic empires out there who would immediately, like the Builders, jump to the easiest solution of destroying their own reality's Earth to save themselves.

But by restricting it strictly to the same Illuminati group whose formation T'Challa at first (and probably rightly) opposed, they have consistently been excluding many of the resources that could have found better solutions. In fact, it's a bit surprising that they *have* finally expanded to include Braddock, Cho, and Pym as Illuminati members, when eight months before they'd given up on solving it at all.

[ShaokhaN]

The Dark Knight had outs , but the people on the boat didn't know that. If Joker actually had the bombs triggered everyone would have died, but that that's the chance that everyone took, because no one had it in themselves to kill the other group. It's not the numbers that are important. It's the idea that would you, could you, and should you kill an innocent person/people in order to save yourself/someone else.

Of course they knew it. They knew it could be a bluff, they knew that IF there were really bombs he could perhaps be stopped in time, or the bombs could possibly not go off, or even if they did go off there was a chance they would not be killed. None of that was the case for the Illuminati. And like XPac explained, numbers do matter as well.

[Trident]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commensurability_(ethics)

I think you may be misunderstanding this in relation of the story now. Lol

[Owain]

But Namor still allied himself with these demons, yes?

A necessary evil, yes?

I thought Namor regretted nothing?

There's more horror to come so I hope the Avenging Son is ready.

Did you miss this?

I honestly don't understand how some think that Namor revels in killing after his speech in these pages....
http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Ir...tomzj.jpg.html
http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Ir...28da3.jpg.html
http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Ir...bxmoq.png.html

I understand that not everyone is going to be as knowledgeable about Namor history but it sorta seems strange. I guess I would understand better if he threw his head back in maniacal laughter or something but that didn't occur. Could someone explain that to me?

It's trolling. More of this, but with Namor as a target.

Unfortunately, in their overzealousness to paint the former Wakandan monarch as a petulant child, some choose to ignore salient facts in favour of snide commentary couched in seemingly neutral discourse.

That said, I think Hickman will again have Namor say he has no regrets about his latest decision, which some people will misunderstand. Namor clearly regrets the way the Cabal is doing things, but given the exact same situation, I'll bet he would make the same decision to form the Cabal.

Despite what some in this thread have posted, and what Doom said (which I found most odd), Namor didn't have the time or situation to make another choice -- at least, given what little Hickman showed us. Either Thanos and company were waiting in the Necropolis, or about to break out. Plus, and it's an assumption on my part, but I'm guessing this is the partly revealed deal that Namor made with Black Swan several issues ago. So, I'm also wondering if there's more to that deal, as I never got the impression that Black Swan was a sadist.

Also, how much does Hickman hate Dr. Strange? Yet another issue with nothing about him, despite the fact he's the only one of the surviving Illuminati who didn't lay down and give up on his "last day."

[Owain]

I actually take issue on this whole "THEY SHOULD TELL EVERYONE" mantra.

Here's the thing, they should have told everyone in the first place. When there's only eight hours to go, and you've decided to forgo your last option, I'd say that yeah, it's pretty damn hopeless. They probably assumed that telling everyone was just going to lead to a mass panic, them getting held (rightfully) accountable and nothing more.

Was it wrong? Yeah. Is it understandable given the amount of time they had left and the emotional circumstances? I'd argue yeah, because telling everyone in the last eight hours is way too late.

You don't fix an issue like this in eight hours. It's been eight months after Namor and the Cabal started, and they STILL haven't solved it.

Actually, T'challa should have told everyone after he discovered Black Swan. Instead he sold out his "morals" and called in the Illuminati. Hence the morality play of a 'good man' making a bad choice and paying the consequences... and why there's so many pages of T'challa in this book. Allegedly Hickman is going to leave T'challa in a better / more usuable place, so at some point, things will start looking up for him.

The Illuminati are only doing what they've always done, which is arrogantly believe they can solve anything for everybody. They were never going to 'tell everyone.' At least some of them are paying the price for subscribing to the mandate of the Illuminati. Ostensibly, since they are / or will be used elsewhere, things should start looking up for them also. Granted, with Hickman's pacing, it may happen in the last issue. LOL!

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

It's trolling. More of this, but with Namor as a target.






That said, I think Hickman will again have Namor say he has no regrets about his latest decision, which some people will misunderstand. Namor clearly regrets the way the Cabal is doing things, but given the exact same situation, I'll bet he would make the same decision to form the Cabal.

Despite what some in this thread have posted, and what Doom said (which I found most odd), Namor didn't have the time or situation to make another choice -- at least, given what little Hickman showed us. Either Thanos and company were waiting in the Necropolis, or about to break out. Plus, and it's an assumption on my part, but I'm guessing this is the partly revealed deal that Namor made with Black Swan several issues ago. So, I'm also wondering if there's more to that deal, as I never got the impression that Black Swan was a sadist.

Also, how much does Hickman hate Dr. Strange? Yet another issue with nothing about him, despite the fact he's the only one of the surviving Illuminati who didn't lay down and give up on his "last day."

Strange is on the cover of a future issue and appears to have put on the Black Priest helmet he teleported away with.

[ExcelsiorPrime]

As far as showing regret. Words are nice but do not show the breadth of regret. When a person really shows regret they do something about it..I believe namor has never gone to wakanda and said he was sorry. Nor did he ever say sorry. Not to mention it is canonical that he is a manipulator who isn't honest at times.

[Iron Maiden]

Earth? Earth doesn't contain the only stakeholders in this, Incursions affect the entire universe.

Yeah but are how are you going to be able to hold a consensus on that? It would become universe vs universe and they would just toss a coin because they both win no matter what. One of them just loses an Earth.

And no, eight hours doesn't allow for even a small group to come to a consensus. That's why the Incursions should have been public, or at least all the superhero teams should have been informed, from the very beginning. In fact, I'm not quite sure why they started off being more proactively secretive about this problem than past events where the existence of the planet or universe was in question, except that by the nature of the Incursion zones they could be... at least until one opened in a populated area with witnesses. Then how were they proposing to keep the secret?

I can't believe at least one other Latverian besides Victor and Kristoff didn't witness the incursion. But they probably were probably given a proclamation that all is well and it was an optical illusion or some other coverup. How about any number of observatories across the globe. Guess we better not dig too deeply into that.

I agree that more people should have been informed. They didn't even have to bring up the Illuminati, just that one of them discovered the phenomena.

[Mr MajestiK]

Did you miss this?

Did you miss this?

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

Did you miss this?

He's still expressing regret, even if it is maliciously and this was after BP attacked him first.

[Trident]

Did you miss this?

Maj .....

The picture you just posted was seconds after T'Challa threw a tantrum for Namor following though on a decision that all memebers present decided on from day one. Namor was playing to T'Challas anger trying to not only provoke him but hurt him all at the same time. Those feeling are clearly ungenuine and I'm very sure by you previous post that you are of strong reason to acknowledge and accept that inspite of your love of the Black Panther mythos. Below is a more true representation on how Namor feels in regards to Wakanda because here in front of a dear friend and teammate he has no reason to lie:

[vitruvian]

Yeah but are how are you going to be able to hold a consensus on that? It would become universe vs universe and they would just toss a coin because they both win no matter what. One of them just loses an Earth.



I can't believe at least one other Latverian besides Victor and Kristoff didn't witness the incursion. But they probably were probably given a proclamation that all is well and it was an optical illusion or some other coverup. How about any number of observatories across the globe. Guess we better not dig too deeply into that.

I agree that more people should have been informed. They didn't even have to bring up the Illuminati, just that one of them discovered the phenomena.

Right, T'Challa found out first because the zone occurred and Black Swan was captured in Wakanda. It would not have been strange at all, and would not have implicated the Illuminati (which he hadn't actually joined and could rightly claim he didn't know much about other than that the idea had been proposed) in the slightest, had he informed his fellow Avengers Tony and Hank and Steve, and his longtime friend and ally Reed Richards, before anybody else so they could help him figure out how bad this latest threat really was. It's mere coincidence that this would have brought in most of the Illuminati at the time, other than his hated adversary Namor; Reed could even have invited Black Bolt along.

Then they could have brought in other allies and resources and expanded the circle as needed, including the whole Avengers, SHIELD, and others as seemed wise. Among other things, this probably would have lead to the earlier realization that the event Hyperion had survived was also an Incursion, and investigation into what allowed him to physically survive when everything else was wiped out. Consultations with the Captain Britain Corps. Lots of other avenues we haven't even seen explored.

[Iron Maiden]

Right, T'Challa found out first because the zone occurred and Black Swan was captured in Wakanda. It would not have been strange at all, and would not have implicated the Illuminati (which he hadn't actually joined and could rightly claim he didn't know much about other than that the idea had been proposed) in the slightest, had he informed his fellow Avengers Tony and Hank and Steve, and his longtime friend and ally Reed Richards, before anybody else so they could help him figure out how bad this latest threat really was. It's mere coincidence that this would have brought in most of the Illuminati at the time, other than his hated adversary Namor; Reed could even have invited Black Bolt along.

Then they could have brought in other allies and resources and expanded the circle as needed, including the whole Avengers, SHIELD, and others as seemed wise. Among other things, this probably would have lead to the earlier realization that the event Hyperion had survived was also an Incursion, and investigation into what allowed him to physically survive when everything else was wiped out. Consultations with the Captain Britain Corps. Lots of other avenues we haven't even seen explored.

I'd have to go back and dig up the issue when Black Swan was captured and see if there's anything that was discussed as to why they felt had to keep everything quiet. Was it because of Cap's dissension that made them decide to keep things secret? I wonder if there could be a parallel with Secret Wars. The heroes and the villians ended up fighting each other instead of meeting the challenge of the Beyonder. Only Doom was able to overcome the Beyonder's challenge by going it alone.

One good thing is that Marvel is certainly shipping as a aggressively as possible with NA. Issue #25 is on Diamond's advance shipping list for October 15th