New Avengers #24 Review (w/spoilers)

[vitruvian]

I'd have to go back and dig up the issue when Black Swan was captured and see if there's anything that was discussed as to why they felt had to keep everything quiet. Was it because of Cap's dissension that made them decide to keep things secret?

No, because the argument with Cap doesn't happen until a good deal later, after he's used the Infinity Gauntlet (admittedly, turned out to be a one-off deal) when none of the brain trust even considered it. Since it came later, it can't be the reason they decide to make it an Illuminati plus T'Challa deal in the beginning.

[TresDias]

Kantian Ethics would say that not doing anything is the right answer (not killing there by not treating people as a means in pursuit of an end)... but they would also have a duty to tell others of the coming danger.

That seems fine to me. Though I think blowing up the alternate Earth was the right call, if someone can't bring themselves to do it, so long as they pass the choice to someone who they believed could, I would be able to respect that choice.

I can't believe at least one other Latverian besides Victor and Kristoff didn't witness the incursion. But they probably were probably given a proclamation that all is well and it was an optical illusion or some other coverup. How about any number of observatories across the globe. Guess we better not dig too deeply into that.

Outside the Incursion Zone, the incoming Earth isn't visible and all appears normal. It's only when you pass through that invisible "wall" that the red (or blue) sky comes into view.

[Mark]

Here we are 8 comic boxes since the end of Siege, and are the humans happy what they got when the super heroes returned? You have to wonder if Norman Osborns prophetic words, when he was placed in his cell, have come true. "Something a super hero or heroes do will crack open the Earth", and "the world is going from one chaotic encounter after an another". Others, like Daken, have said it was just a game, all these super heroic encounters. Not that in any way could the humans stop the encounters from happening, but they must be wondering now, "what have we done, letting these super heroes run around and do whatever they liked"? Surely there must be some way to counter this problem of the Cabal dictating who they want to destroy next? They shouldn't even be here. The humans don't know why the Cabal have been ignited, and that it is to do with Incursions. All they know is, that all this crazy alien, mutant, inhuman, super human stuff has led to this. The humans must be very disappointed in what it has all led down too. Happy were the days, when a super human just flew in and punched someone out, and a villain was led into jail. Those nostalgic days are all gone now.

I just wonder what assurances the super heroes gave the government at the start of the Heroic Age?

That the world would be a better place with them in it?
Or, that it will be a worse place without them in it?

Basically that the world wouldn't exist without them. Remove all the superhumans from Earth and then it becomes a lottery to see which alien species will conquer or destroy. I'll admit the old days of superheroes in the mu actually standing for something are gone, the days when you could have a supervillain out for revenge, wealth or world domination and have the same supervillain not become a hero a few years later is definitely gone, at this point being a bad guy is something you need to have on your resume if you want to be a true marvel star, either being a bad guy or having a large body count. Treachery for one reason or another is just something that a marvel character needs to embrace if they want to stay relevant. All that being said though there are still -if barely- menaces that have no counter in normal humans or anything that they can devise. The world of the mu is simply stuck. Gyrich could -as Tony Stark showed- round up heroes and throw them into a hole forever, but that doesn't stop the skrulls or the kree or Galactus (man, remember when he used to be something to worry about?) and the others.
They are simply stuck.

[Mark]

Yes, even outside of it. It's called crown immunity. Civil action may be taken but not criminal proceedings.

Lois of France, beheaded after a trial for crimes against the French people.
Charles of England, beheaded after a trial for crimes against the people.

[Mark]

I'm pretty sure he'd do something besides have sex with an old lover.

They didn't necessarily have to tell EVERYONE... but they did have the obligation to at least tell someone. After they chose to take on this obligation without telling anyone, they owed it to the universe to do that much. To give them a fighting chance even if they were willing to just lay down and die.

Hell, just tell Doom. Give him a shot. Even if he fails, then where's the harm in at least him trying. Not everyone is going to just lay down and play dead... some will TRY. And who knows, maybe some will suceed. If not they're no worse off really.

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

Lois of France, beheaded after a trial for crimes against the French people.
Charles of England, beheaded after a trial for crimes against the people.

Those were extreme examples of rebellion. They also occured before the ratification of the crown immunity act which is accepted by the UN and G20 councils.

Obviously actions before the formal recognition of these international laws and the World Court at The Hague were formed don't count. Laws cannot be enforced retroactively, we don't have time machines.

[Mark]

Those were extreme examples of rebellion. They also occured before the ratification of the crown immunity act which is accepted by the UN and G20 councils.

Obviously actions before the formal recognition of these international laws and the World Court at The Hague were formed don't count. Laws cannot be enforced retroactively, we don't have time machines.

So the best way to get away with a terrible crime is to become a king? Good to know. Nor am I really surprised that those who rule or hold power have decided in principle not to hold others who rule and hold power accountable for crimes. It's a bit like congress being exempt from hiring laws.

[ed2962]

So the best way to get away with a terrible crime is to become a king? Good to know. Nor am I really surprised that those who rule or hold power have decided in principle not to hold others who rule and hold power accountable for crimes. It's a bit like congress being exempt from hiring laws.

Wasn't it Nixon who said something like, "If the President does it, that means it's not illegal?" (smiley face)

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

So the best way to get away with a terrible crime is to become a king? Good to know. Nor am I really surprised that those who rule or hold power have decided in principle not to hold others who rule and hold power accountable for crimes. It's a bit like congress being exempt from hiring laws.

State legislature is state legislature, whether law of localised city limits or outright national policy.

Also it is a lot harder to become a king than it was 200 years ago. Again, due to the limitations of the limits of crown immunity and diplomatic immunity.

[Mark]

State legislature is state legislature, whether law of localised city limits or outright national policy.

Also it is a lot harder to become a king than it was 200 years ago. Again, due to the limitations of the limits of crown immunity and diplomatic immunity.

And the principle that all are equal under the law? Sorry, I don't agree. When you strip him naked a king who murders is still just a man and should be held accountable.

[jackolover]

The citizens of the MU would have to wonder what and who their super heroes are now, after Original Sin. Thor isn't worthy of lifting his hammer any more, Captain America is left an old man, Spiderman can get infected by one of his villains gallery, professor Xavier's powers are now in a villain and that has gone viral, the previously heroic X-men have split up and their leader is a fugitive from justice. You would have to wonder if this is the death of the Heroic Age and that the Earth is on the brink of collapse.

[jackolover]

U

Basically that the world wouldn't exist without them. Remove all the superhumans from Earth and then it becomes a lottery to see which alien species will conquer or destroy. I'll admit the old days of superheroes in the mu actually standing for something are gone, the days when you could have a supervillain out for revenge, wealth or world domination and have the same supervillain not become a hero a few years later is definitely gone, at this point being a bad guy is something you need to have on your resume if you want to be a true marvel star, either being a bad guy or having a large body count. Treachery for one reason or another is just something that a marvel character needs to embrace if they want to stay relevant. All that being said though there are still -if barely- menaces that have no counter in normal humans or anything that they can devise. The world of the mu is simply stuck. Gyrich could -as Tony Stark showed- round up heroes and throw them into a hole forever, but that doesn't stop the skrulls or the kree or Galactus (man, remember when he used to be something to worry about?) and the others.
They are simply stuck.

There's a darker side to this. As Siege was playing out and all the super heroes attacked the Void, the Void impailed all of them and that was the end of the super heroes. Then, Loki prayed to his father above to be able to use the Norn Stones to reanimate the super heroes, and one hero said, "I'm getting a second chance." Then another one says, "I like the second chances". That seems to be the process by which the 616 seems to run. You are a villain, or you make a mistake the first time, and then you reform, and you become the super hero. The MU seems like it is a factory where you make super heroes from failed attempts. Captain America seems to be the exception, but even he had to admit after Civil War he was the villain.

[jackolover]

Maj .....

The picture you just posted was seconds after T'Challa threw a tantrum for Namor following though on a decision that all memebers present decided on from day one. Namor was playing to T'Challas anger trying to not only provoke him but hurt him all at the same time. Those feeling are clearly ungenuine and I'm very sure by you previous post that you are of strong reason to acknowledge and accept that inspite of your love of the Black Panther mythos. Below is a more true representation on how Namor feels in regards to Wakanda because here in front of a dear friend and teammate he has no reason to lie:

What is this saying? Is Namor admitting he was taken over by the Phoenix and had no control over what he was doing? I'm surprised that Hope was so strong in her Attack against Namors destroying Wakanda, because Hope came out of a world that hunted her incessantly, so how should Hope know what Wakanda was and what the rules of the 21st Century are? Is Hope that comfortable in the 21st Century, that she knows what is right and wrong here? Or is Hope just projecting the hope that the 21 st Century is much better than the future she came from? Because it isn't.

[XPac]

What is this saying? Is Namor admitting he was taken over by the Phoenix and had no control over what he was doing? I'm surprised that Hope was so strong in her Attack against Namors destroying Wakanda, because Hope came out of a world that hunted her incessantly, so how should Hope know what Wakanda was and what the rules of the 21st Century are? Is Hope that comfortable in the 21st Century, that she knows what is right and wrong here? Or is Hope just projecting the hope that the 21 st Century is much better than the future she came from? Because it isn't.

He wasn't directly admitting that he had no control... in fact based on his words you can argue he was defending the actions.

But I do think if you read between the lines, the scene essentially tells us that Namor was out of control without Namor actually saying the words. It's a matter of interpreting his mannerism and reading between the lines.

The fact of the matter is that Namor would sooner admit to being a mass murderer than he would admit being controlled. That's just Namor.

[Trident]

What is this saying? Is Namor admitting he was taken over by the Phoenix and had no control over what he was doing?

In his own way he is saying that he wasn't in control. That something not only swept him away but made him feel small, insignificant, and out of control. If you watch his facial expression you can clearly pull that he, at the moment, regretted what he did while under the Phoenix sway. If you compare this the average characterization of the past for this character with this scene you can easily pull how Namor truly feels about what happen. What also makes this scene dependable on Namors true feelings is that he is speaking not only with some he actually likes and trust but it is also a female. Namor has a history of being more expressive and at times more giving of his emotions with women than he ever has with men.