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  1. #1516
    Incredible Member Link's Avatar
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    wow, I just read this issue before going to bed and had to jump on the boards and see what everyone was saying. So Wakanda is finished? That's it huh? Dang...things in the MU are looking really bleak and grim. I mean, how do you redeem these characters? Most of the people are passed that point of achieving the title of 'Hero' ever again. I'm also talking about other titles and heroes not just the characters in New Avengers.

    How would Marvel bring back Wakanda now? So many citizens are dead thanks to the Cabal and Namor.

  2. #1517
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Link View Post
    wow, I just read this issue before going to bed and had to jump on the boards and see what everyone was saying. So Wakanda is finished? That's it huh? Dang...things in the MU are looking really bleak and grim. I mean, how do you redeem these characters? Most of the people are passed that point of achieving the title of 'Hero' ever again. I'm also talking about other titles and heroes not just the characters in New Avengers.

    How would Marvel bring back Wakanda now? So many citizens are dead thanks to the Cabal and Namor.
    I'm still of the belief that a year or two from now Wakanda and Atlantis will magically return to status quo. Not saying that makes sense, but that's how comics usually work.

  3. #1518
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    He wasn't directly admitting that he had no control... in fact based on his words you can argue he was defending the actions.

    But I do think if you read between the lines, the scene essentially tells us that Namor was out of control without Namor actually saying the words. It's a matter of interpreting his mannerism and reading between the lines.

    The fact of the matter is that Namor would sooner admit to being a mass murderer than he would admit being controlled. That's just Namor.
    Yeah, well, that's the feeling I got from that dialogue and the imagery. The fact that Namor was hesitant, and in his own element, under water where there are no witnesses, I got the feeling he was showing his true feelings. He was open and vulnerable with Hope and then Hope became too uncivil and Namor closed up again. Was he trying to get in her pants?

  4. #1519
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    In his own way he is saying that he wasn't in control. That something not only swept him away but made him feel small, insignificant, and out of control. If you watch his facial expression you can clearly pull that he, at the moment, regretted what he did while under the Phoenix sway. If you compare this the average characterization of the past for this character with this scene you can easily pull how Namor truly feels about what happen. What also makes this scene dependable on Namors true feelings is that he is speaking not only with some he actually likes and trust but it is also a female. Namor has a history of being more expressive and at times more giving of his emotions with women than he ever has with men.
    Nice summation there. I was also picking up some female significance here too.

  5. #1520
    Mighty Member neohuey89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Right, T'Challa found out first because the zone occurred and Black Swan was captured in Wakanda. It would not have been strange at all, and would not have implicated the Illuminati (which he hadn't actually joined and could rightly claim he didn't know much about other than that the idea had been proposed) in the slightest, had he informed his fellow Avengers Tony and Hank and Steve, and his longtime friend and ally Reed Richards, before anybody else so they could help him figure out how bad this latest threat really was. It's mere coincidence that this would have brought in most of the Illuminati at the time, other than his hated adversary Namor; Reed could even have invited Black Bolt along.

    Then they could have brought in other allies and resources and expanded the circle as needed, including the whole Avengers, SHIELD, and others as seemed wise. Among other things, this probably would have lead to the earlier realization that the event Hyperion had survived was also an Incursion, and investigation into what allowed him to physically survive when everything else was wiped out. Consultations with the Captain Britain Corps. Lots of other avenues we haven't even seen explored.
    no he definitely called the Illuminati. He knew when she blew up the other earth that he was dealing with a situation that only the Illuminati could deal with. He wasn't apart of it, but he was there for the first mutant. He knew who was apart of it (aside from Cap and Beast who was alerted through the means of Professor X's contingency)

  6. #1521
    Mighty Member neohuey89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Yeah, well, that's the feeling I got from that dialogue and the imagery. The fact that Namor was hesitant, and in his own element, under water where there are no witnesses, I got the feeling he was showing his true feelings. He was open and vulnerable with Hope and then Hope became too uncivil and Namor closed up again. Was he trying to get in her pants?
    I don't think he was trying to get in her pants. I think at the point Namor was feeling humble and reached out to someone he considered his own (a mutant child) he definitely felt like he was being manipulated by the Phoenix. I don't think he meant to attack his former ally, but things happen and Namor is never going to admit to it. That's just how he is.

  7. #1522
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    I'm shaking my head here at how Marvel have done this job of exploding so much stuff onto the stories that are interesting, after Original Sin finished and heading towards TRO. I wasn't interested in any of this, but just the last 4 books in Av, NA, UA, and Cap are just so freaked out, I think Marvel have done a good job here.

  8. #1523
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I'm shaking my head here at how Marvel have done this job of exploding so much stuff onto the stories that are interesting, after Original Sin finished and heading towards TRO. I wasn't interested in any of this, but just the last 4 books in Av, NA, UA, and Cap are just so freaked out, I think Marvel have done a good job here.
    Yeah. I honestly thought that Hickmans Avengers stuff was dragging after Infinity, but the last few issues of the 8 months later have really been interesting reading. The third act of this story has definately gotten my attention. Hopefully it will finish strong.

  9. #1524
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    This is a couple of naive political maneuverings, going on here. First, Namor arrives at Dooms house in a poor political posture, having exhausted his options with the Cabal, and now scrambles to include Doom. It reflects Namors subjugation before the Black Order. Then follows Black Panther and Shuri's invasion of the Necropolis, in a forlorn attempt to steal planet busters and are mistaken about the Intel they are being fed. Two failures here, and the Illuminati are forced to escape because Panther brings their pursuers to their hideout. This is a planet that has lost. Men are on the run, and Devils as Namor puts it, are in charge. I do wonder how the MU operates, under these conditions, as Namor laments, "why do we need to supper, when the situation is so dire". It's like the Black Order won the "Infinity" fight, and now is pleasuring itself with dangling little locus Earth before Incursions for their own entertainment. I have little doubt that the Black Order will tire of this little distraction, until they jump to another Earth and destroy the 616 out of boredom.

    Hickman paints a picture of betrayal and fear, and desperation. Where it leads is yet to be seen. But it paints a picture of a Marvel Universe ageing and decrepit, greying and with wrinkles, like a Dorian Grey that has been exposed to view, and it's truth is now corrupting it. I don't know how the MU emerges from this without a psychological mind wipe. It is a terrible nightmare.

  10. #1525
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    This is a couple of naive political maneuverings, going on here. First, Namor arrives at Dooms house in a poor political posture, having exhausted his options with the Cabal, and now scrambles to include Doom. It reflects Namors subjugation before the Black Order. Then follows Black Panther and Shuri's invasion of the Necropolis, in a forlorn attempt to steal planet busters and are mistaken about the Intel they are being fed. Two failures here, and the Illuminati are forced to escape because Panther brings their pursuers to their hideout. This is a planet that has lost. Men are on the run, and Devils as Namor puts it, are in charge. I do wonder how the MU operates, under these conditions, as Namor laments, "why do we need to supper, when the situation is so dire". It's like the Black Order won the "Infinity" fight, and now is pleasuring itself with dangling little locus Earth before Incursions for their own entertainment. I have little doubt that the Black Order will tire of this little distraction, until they jump to another Earth and destroy the 616 out of boredom.

    Hickman paints a picture of betrayal and fear, and desperation. Where it leads is yet to be seen. But it paints a picture of a Marvel Universe ageing and decrepit, greying and with wrinkles, like a Dorian Grey that has been exposed to view, and it's truth is now corrupting it. I don't know how the MU emerges from this without a psychological mind wipe. It is a terrible nightmare.
    They'll probably just ignore it and move onto the next event. Writing stuff like this is a lot easier than writing complex follow up tales that deal with repercussions. As Xpac said Wakanda and Atlantis will be back, and probably just in time for them to be destroyed again for dramatic effect.
    Last edited by Mark; 10-02-2014 at 04:08 AM.

  11. #1526
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Was he trying to get in her pants?
    No. With a large NO!

    Durring Namors run on the X-Men he developed a friendship with Hope. It's clear that he respect, trust, and to a degree admires her but that is as far as it will go.

  12. #1527
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    They'll probably just ignore it and move onto the next event. Writing stuff like this is a lot easier than writing complex follow up tales that deal with repercussions. As Xpac said Wakanda and Atlantis will be back, and probably just in time for them to be destroyed again for dramatic effect.
    I wonder if Marvel can just ignore the Hickman run and write stories like it never happened? I suppose they could do a HoM and just have a white out and everybody is back in 2004. But I don't think the writers ever want to go back. They have a formula now where they rip the MU apart, and the next big thing takes over as the DoS and another good guy becomes the bad guy that everybody dumps on.

    What could happen after the Hickman run is that the people of the MU have to accept the super heroes as viable allies again, and not marginalise them again, like they have in the past. But one things for sure. Everybody is going to be more aware of everybody's failings after this. Nobody is going to act high and mighty because everybody will have been taken to purgatory and made naked in front of everybody else. The psychology of the planet Earth will have to be resown back into place, just so countries and parties can become viable again. This doesn't just reflect on the super heroes. This takes away from the citizens as well. Everybody is incriminated.

    Otherwise, why bother with such an elaborate plot? Where is the point of showing what a really human Universe this is, where everybody is tempted and found to be wanting, and then it is just ignored? I don't see the point of building such a strong humane story, showing what it is to be human and then turning a page, and it's a new day, and who cares what happened yesterday? You have a perfectly set up plot, where nobody can act like they are superior to anybody else, and from that starting point you begin.
    Last edited by jackolover; 10-02-2014 at 05:39 AM.

  13. #1528
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    No. With a large NO!

    Durring Namors run on the X-Men he developed a friendship with Hope. It's clear that he respect, trust, and to a degree admires her but that is as far as it will go.
    I will just say this. Namor is a fish. He has no morals. If they are of breeding age, then you breed.

  14. #1529
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    This is a couple of naive political maneuverings, going on here. First, Namor arrives at Dooms house in a poor political posture, having exhausted his options with the Cabal, and now scrambles to include Doom. It reflects Namors subjugation before the Black Order. Then follows Black Panther and Shuri's invasion of the Necropolis, in a forlorn attempt to steal planet busters and are mistaken about the Intel they are being fed. Two failures here, and the Illuminati are forced to escape because Panther brings their pursuers to their hideout. This is a planet that has lost. Men are on the run, and Devils as Namor puts it, are in charge. I do wonder how the MU operates, under these conditions, as Namor laments, "why do we need to supper, when the situation is so dire". It's like the Black Order won the "Infinity" fight, and now is pleasuring itself with dangling little locus Earth before Incursions for their own entertainment. I have little doubt that the Black Order will tire of this little distraction, until they jump to another Earth and destroy the 616 out of boredom.

    Hickman paints a picture of betrayal and fear, and desperation. Where it leads is yet to be seen. But it paints a picture of a Marvel Universe ageing and decrepit, greying and with wrinkles, like a Dorian Grey that has been exposed to view, and it's truth is now corrupting it. I don't know how the MU emerges from this without a psychological mind wipe. It is a terrible nightmare.
    This post has 100% legendary status.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

    Mr MajestiK took a short hiatus and the Chaos Bringer was reborn.

  15. #1530
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I will just say this. Namor is a fish. He has no morals. If they are of breeding age, then you breed.
    Lol that makes no sense but ok.

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