New Avengers #24 Review (w/spoilers)

[brainwasher]

I wasn't referencing a normal person surrounded by psychos and you know it. I was referencing a mass murderer surrounded by other mass murderers who also happen to be even more psychotic.

Re-read my post because you clearly don't understood it. Or, if you can't tell the difference between someone that reluctantly take the mantle of mass murder to save bigger masses and mass murders that torture and kils for fun, we can't stop the conversation right here.

[Trident]

Lol DemonShadow you are letting your destain for Namor cloud your reasoning in this matter. There is nothing in Namors history that would suggest that he would be would join in with Thanos and crew on their killing spree or that he would enjoy doing so.

[Mark]

Re-read my post because you clearly don't understood it. Or, if you can't tell the difference between someone that reluctantly take the mantle of mass murder to save bigger masses and mass murders that torture and kils for fun, we can't stop the conversation right here.

There is a difference but the only difference to the ones that get killed is that they die a little faster and in a little less pain.

[XPac]

Yours is a reasonable logic but in a totally abstract and theoretically world. In the real world, we know that "just" killing a person can be impossibile for many people, and when they do they often suffer psychological consequence for the rest of their lifes. So saying that killing billions of people to save trillions is okay ignore the fact fundamental fact that human beings don't work this way. If everything was that clear and simple, there would be no discussions about that, everyone would agree, a story like that probably wouldn't even exist because it wouldn't be able to create tension and drama. You can think killing billions is what you would do in that position, but you can't say for sure that you would be able to do it if the occasion arises. You simply can't unless it is already happened to you. Even trained people sometimes are not able to kil their targets, and we are even ignoring moral issues, personal beliefs and so on. So, as a theory, your certinaly work, but once you test the theory in the real world, what will happen is what happened in that issue of New Avengers, someone will be able to do it, someone won't be. And you really can't judge someone for not doing something you don't know if you would be able to do (probably you wouldn't) and that involves the biggest moral taboo of all humanity history (taking another person life) multiplied billion times.

I could understand the Illuminati not beibg able to set off the bombs. But to sit back and do NOTHING in an incursion was inexcusable. At least tell someone else then lay down to die. That was cowardly.

[Mark]

Lol DemonShadow you are letting your destain for Namor cloud your reasoning in this matter. There is nothing in Namors history that would suggest that he would be would join in with Thanos and crew on their killing spree or that he would enjoy doing so.

I think if it got rid of everyone on the surface he might have done this a long time ago.

[Doc Omega]

you have destain for Namor? Can he not do his own laundry?

[Mark]

It matters in the sense that everyone will still be around 2 yeard fron niw. Thats something I suppose.

But I don't think the point is that what we are seeing is necessarily herioc. In fact I think the story is going out of its way to argue the opposite. I think the point is that it's necessary.

Cutting off the arm to save the body is great if you are not the arm. But I think that this is what marvel considers heroic, that it's been the standard for marvel ever since cw. Betrayal, murder, allies of convenience... in short the ends justify the means and the individual is meaningless against the greater whole. This is I think what Hickman and the rest of them believe and this story is just taking their philosophy to the extreme point. They don't want heroes at marvel, they just want beings with powers.

[Trident]

Yours is a reasonable logic but in a totally abstract and theoretically world. In the real world, we know that "just" killing a person can be impossibile for many people, and when they do they often suffer psychological consequence for the rest of their lifes. So saying that killing billions of people to save trillions is okay ignore the fact fundamental fact that human beings don't work this way. If everything was that clear and simple, there would be no discussions about that, everyone would agree, a story like that probably wouldn't even exist because it wouldn't be able to create tension and drama. You can think killing billions is what you would do in that position, but you can't say for sure that you would be able to do it if the occasion arises. You simply can't unless it is already happened to you. Even trained people sometimes are not able to kil their targets, and we are even ignoring moral issues, personal beliefs and so on. So, as a theory, your certinaly work, but once you test the theory in the real world, what will happen is what happened in that issue of New Avengers, someone will be able to do it, someone won't be. And you really can't judge someone for not doing something you don't know if you would be able to do (probably you wouldn't) and that involves the biggest moral taboo of all humanity history (taking another person life) multiplied billion times.

1) No one said anyone should be "ok" with killing anyone.

2) When you are face with a life or death situation in most cases your "flight or fight" responses kick in. If you are faced with the death of a relative few including your own or the death of three times as many including your own , choosing the later is always the better play. Can everyone do that? Maybe not but the truth of the matter is you wouldn't have been any less wrong for making that choice.

3) To continue to argue Namor should have let the universe die is really at its core arguing you should selfishly save your morals and decide for two worlds it is their time to no longer live.

Those are the only points I'm making in the matter. No matter how anyone tried to spin it those are the facts. No one said the choice is the easy one to make or that you would be fine with it after the fact but it is the right choice to make. To throw more jargon at what's going doesn't change the facts but instead it only muddies the discussion.

[Trident]

I think if it got rid of everyone on the surface he might have done this a long time ago.

Namor has never wanted to get rid of everyone on the surface world or even attempted to. So far Namor has only attacked the surface world when he has been provoked into doing so. It has mostly been due to the carelessness of the surface that lead to such attacks.

[rukkis]

What you say is true if you go for the 'kill some to save others' line of thinking. In fact at this rate they may become the greatest life savers in history by becoming the greatest murderers in history. I guess that's heroism by marvel standards. Too bad none of this will matter in a year or two.

We all understand that, you have been saying it for months. The story is about people having to do horrible things for the greater good and there reactions to it. The Cabal enjoy it, Namor despises it, the Illuminati can't stomach it, and Cap's Avengers are trying to stop it, consequences be damned. If an incursion type situation happened in real life, I am sure you would see all 4 of those reactions from people. You are correct in that its a very dark subject matter and that it's certainly not for everyone. That said, its been 2 years now and you would think that people would realize this by now. Posting the same outrage every month isn't going to change anything.

Edit: Didn't mean to single you out Mark even though it comes across that way. The same can be said for people who repeatedly post that Cap is an idiot or that the Illuminati are weak. These are all believable reactions to an unbelievable situation.

[Dboi654]

Yours is a reasonable logic but in a totally abstract and theoretically world. In the real world, we know that "just" killing a person can be impossibile for many people, and when they do they often suffer psychological consequence for the rest of their lifes. So saying that killing billions of people to save trillions is okay ignore the fact fundamental fact that human beings don't work this way. If everything was that clear and simple, there would be no discussions about that, everyone would agree, a story like that probably wouldn't even exist because it wouldn't be able to create tension and drama. You can think killing billions is what you would do in that position, but you can't say for sure that you would be able to do it if the occasion arises. You simply can't unless it is already happened to you. Even trained people sometimes are not able to kil their targets, and we are even ignoring moral issues, personal beliefs and so on. So, as a theory, your certinaly work, but once you test the theory in the real world, what will happen is what happened in that issue of New Avengers, someone will be able to do it, someone won't be. And you really can't judge someone for not doing something you don't know if you would be able to do (probably you wouldn't) and that involves the biggest moral taboo of all humanity history (taking another person life) multiplied billion times.

best post I have read today

[DeamonSnow]

You have a very shallow and distorted view of the problem…Namor is willing to do something he considers evil because there are no other viable options at the moment, not because he likes to kill. When is said he and the Illuminati were monsters, he obviously didn't mean that they enjoyed torture and homicide, but that what they were doing wasn't a noble endeavor and they should have accepted themselveds for wha they were, people willing to kill billions of lifes.

Now you are saying, for some delirious reason no rational man could fathom, that a man that has chosen to sacrifice his honor and morality for what he considers the greater good, should became a sadistic torturer in order to save his life…

You totally ignore or misunderstand the difference by evil and necessary evil (worst than that, you ignore the difference between killing by necessity, like a cop could be forced to do to save lifes, and tortuting and killing for fun) one of the axis of this whole run.

I understand what the Cabal are doing, I don't like it, I don't agree with it and I will not praise them for it. If it were up to me I would not have been able to kill billions no matter the circumstances. I could have built the bombs but when it mattered I would not have blown up an earth with billions of innocents.

Namor has been saying since this story began that the illuminati were fooling themselves, that they were already dead. That they were monsters.

After 8 months of killing world after world does Namor have the right to behave like he is different from Thanos? NO. They are both doing the same thing, Namor's whining does not make him that different from Thanos. You do not get to kill that many people and claim you are a good guy.
If you want you can argue that Namor is not quite as sick as Thanos (yet?).

I'm saying that if Namor wants to keep doing what he has been doing (killing worlds to save universes), he cannot show hesitation.
In this issue he says that the others are starting to sense it. So I ask you : do you think that if Namor keeps hesitating, Thanos will keep him on the team?
Namor formed this team to do a job and if he hesitates then he will be unable to do this job because he will most likely be dead.
He gave himself this responsibility like the arrogant man that he is. I don't see that much of a difference between Namor and Thanos, they are both killing worlds in order to save universes (Terrax said this in this issue), just because Namor is hand wringing it does not mean that he deserves sympathy. He put himself in this poisition.

[DeamonSnow]

Re-read my post because you clearly don't understood it. Or, if you can't tell the difference between someone that reluctantly take the mantle of mass murder to save bigger masses and mass murders that torture and kils for fun, we can't stop the conversation right here.

If a warlord had you and 30 children at gunpoint then told you that he will let you and 29 children go if you strangle a 5 year old little girl. If you don't kill her, he will kill all of you. Would you kill her?
You seem to think that because I do not agree with your moral code that that automatically means that my morals are twisted. So answer me, would you strangle the 5 year old girl?

Namor is the same as Thanos, no whining will change that. He does not deserve sympathy so he should continue on his path to damnation

There were more than a few reluctant mass murderers on the Nazi side. They do not deserve sympathy either.
Namor chose his path, it was not forced upon him. So I do not accept the - Namor is a reluctant mass murderer angle.

[Juggernaut Punch]

I understand what the Cabal are doing, I don't like it, I don't agree with it and I will not praise them for it. If it were up to me I would not have been able to kill billions no matter the circumstances. I could have built the bombs but when it mattered I would not have blown up an earth with billions of innocents.

Namor has been saying since this story began that the illuminati were fooling themselves, that they were already dead. That they were monsters.

After 8 months of killing world after world does Namor have the right to behave like he is different from Thanos? NO. They are both doing the same thing, Namor's whining does not make him that different from Thanos. You do not get to kill that many people and claim you are a good guy.
If you want you can argue that Namor is not quite as sick as Thanos (yet?).

I'm saying that if Namor wants to keep doing what he has been doing (killing worlds to save universes), he cannot show hesitation.
In this issue he says that the others are starting to sense it. So I ask you : do you think that if Namor keeps hesitating, Thanos will keep him on the team?
Namor formed this team to do a job and if he hesitates then he will be unable to do this job because he will most likely be dead.
He gave himself this responsibility like the arrogant man that he is. I don't see that much of a difference between Namor and Thanos, they are both killing worlds in order to save universes (Terrax said this in this issue), just because Namor is hand wringing it does not mean that he deserves sympathy. He put himself in this poisition.

Namor has never claimed that he's a good guy throughout this. Quite the opposite. What he's trying to accomplish by going to Doom is to alleviate the suffering of the people he's forced to kill. He wants to just drop off the bomb, pull the trigger, and that's that. As we saw this issue, the Cabal take the opportunity to brutally torture people. Him and Thanos aren't the least bit alike. Namor is doing this because of a sense of duty towards the greater good. Thanos is doing this to further his own interests and because he enjoys it.

[Trident]

I understand what the Cabal are doing, I don't like it, I don't agree with it and I will not praise them for it. If it were up to me I would not have been able to kill billions no matter the circumstances. I could have built the bombs but when it mattered I would not have blown up an earth with billions of innocents.

Namor has been saying since this story began that the illuminati were fooling themselves, that they were already dead. That they were monsters.

After 8 months of killing world after world does Namor have the right to behave like he is different from Thanos? NO. They are both doing the same thing, Namor's whining does not make him that different from Thanos. You do not get to kill that many people and claim you are a good guy.
If you want you can argue that Namor is not quite as sick as Thanos (yet?).

I'm saying that if Namor wants to keep doing what he has been doing (killing worlds to save universes), he cannot show hesitation.
In this issue he says that the others are starting to sense it. So I ask you : do you think that if Namor keeps hesitating, Thanos will keep him on the team?
Namor formed this team to do a job and if he hesitates then he will be unable to do this job because he will most likely be dead.
He gave himself this responsibility like the arrogant man that he is. I don't see that much of a difference between Namor and Thanos, they are both killing worlds in order to save universes (Terrax said this in this issue), just because Namor is hand wringing it does not mean that he deserves sympathy. He put himself in this poisition.

I'm sorry but this is more inconsequential jargon. It doesn't matter how Namor feels, it doesn't matter how the Illuminati feel, and it does not matter what any of us would do in the situation. In the story each universe is coming to an end and right now the only thing keeping chance and hope alive is Cabal. Yes, they are psychotic monsters who will at some point answer for what they have done but at the end of the day they are still the ones giving someone in the multi-verse a chance to do something.

Without them their is no hope and without hope there is no life.

Namor needs no more to hold hands with Thanos while he stabs his trident through it worlds defenders than he needs to stand on the sidelines and merely watch as the rapid dogs have their distasteful fun. Thinking that way is only thinking in a linear mindset. A mindset which correlates with silly thinking that if you agree with one thing you must agree with another. it also misses the point entirely.

For there to be a world left to produce more life the Cabal must exist for the time being. When their purpose has met it's end then they will be removed but until then they are the necessary hero, villain, evil, or whatever other pointless label helps you feel better is needed so something can survive to keep things moving forward.

Edit:
One more thing. There is one thing about Namor that a lot of people over look. No matter what decision he makes, be it right or wrong, he takes responsibility for those decision and deals with the consequences. He has yet to shunt his responsibility off on the feet of anyone else. Namor formed the Cabal and when they become unruly he sought out means to stop them and now that his first plan has failed with Doom he is still taking responsibility for Cabal. There is honor in that wether anyone wants to admit or not.