New Avengers #24 Review (w/spoilers)

[XPac]

You know if everyone just paused and realized that Doctor Doom is being more heroic then them, the Cabal should realize just how far they fallen.

That is the funny thing about this story.

You essentially have Thanos holding the line and preventing the universe from being destroyed, and you have Doom making the most head way as far as resolving the problem.

It's almost comical that the universe is relying on Thanos and Doom right now.

[Double 0]

They didn't necessarily have to tell EVERYONE... but they did have the obligation to at least tell someone. After they chose to take on this obligation without telling anyone, they owed it to the universe to do that much. To give them a fighting chance even if they were willing to just lay down and die.

Hell, just tell Doom. Give him a shot. Even if he fails, then where's the harm in at least him trying. Not everyone is going to just lay down and play dead... some will TRY. And who knows, maybe some will suceed. If not they're no worse off really.

Do we even know if Doom knew about the Incursions or not at that time? Or how to locate them?

I've been wondering that every since this issue came out.

[KOSLOX]

I'm just talking about ehtical priniciples in general not making an argument for one or the other. I think it'd be crazy to broadcast this and cause mass hysteria.

My personal philosophy would have the most moral act be actively working on a solution using the most REASONABLE means and tools available (cast a wide enough net but avoid public panic) and only detonate another planet as an absolute last resort.

Basically this is a problem too big for 8 people to solve, and death should always be a last resort, and by casting out the main vote of dissent they've limited their will to find "out of the box" options even more. They went into this whole thing arrogant and backwards. They started building planet busters immediately which made them that much more likely to use them.

[Iron Maiden]

You know if everyone just paused and realized that Doctor Doom is being more heroic then them, the Cabal should realize just how far they fallen.

In their view, the Cabal hasn't fallen. With the exception of Namor they are indulging themselves in sadistic torture of people who were going to die anyway, making their last moments full of pain and despair. If you mean the Illuminati, then yes. They've dropped the ball and now their focus seems to be trying to stop the Cabal. And if they do, then what? I hope they have a plan B. I would hope they are still actively trying to stop the incursions or at the very least coming up with an evacuation plan.
'

[Emma's Midriff]

Guys letting universes die when you have the means to stop it is super moral. Yeah.

[Emma's Midriff]

That's because you're coming at it from a utilitarian view. Few<Many, so less death equals moral act.

Some don't put a numerical value on human life therefore to kill one vs. one million makes no difference since ends are the same (you've killed someone). In this type of moral philosophy since you aren't directly causing their death (inaction is not causation) it becomes more moral than actively commiting murder.

That's completely false. The choice to not act to save someone is the same as the choice to kill them.

If you make the choice that more people should die because it's more fair, that's not more moral than what Namor is doing. It makes no fucking sense.

Look at it this way, do you think it's more moral to save who you can in the wake of a disaster? Or let them all die because it's fair?

[KOSLOX]

Guys letting universes die when you have the means to stop it is super moral. Yeah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commensurability_(ethics)

[Double 0]

My personal philosophy would have the most moral act be actively working on a solution using the most REASONABLE means and tools available (cast a wide enough net but avoid public panic) and only detonate another planet as an absolute last resort.

Basically this is a problem too big for 8 people to solve, and death should always be a last resort, and by casting out the main vote of dissent they've limited their will to find "out of the box" options even more. They went into this whole thing arrogant and backwards. They started building planet busters immediately which made them that much more likely to use them.

I also think they used the bridge terribly.

Notice how they kept looking at universes with Illuminati or Illuminati like factions? Why not aim for ones where they alerted everyone? You know, real alternate scenarios?


This also follows something I've been thinking for a while now: that Black Swan hunts for Illuminati like groups because they are the most vunerable and most likely to play the game.

[TakoM]

That's because you're coming at it from a utilitarian view. Few<Many, so less death equals moral act.

Some don't put a numerical value on human life therefore to kill one vs. one million makes no difference since ends are the same (you've killed someone). In this type of moral philosophy since you aren't directly causing their death (inaction is not causation) it becomes more moral than actively commiting murder.

What is a huge cultural gap I think in most western cultures life isn't tradable like this for the benefit that war isn't acceptable solution either on the other side cultures which are going to war from time to time there must be utilitarian thinking otherwise the people on the street wouldn't accept it.

The problem is Reed and some others wasn't utilitarian in the past I would say marvel heroes who are utilitarian were Wolverine, The Punisher, Cable(X-Force), Thunderbolts and the the rest is not. On top of that we saw at the end they found out for them self 10 seconds before end they weren't but for non utilitarian they went already too far.

One example how Reed dealt with situation like this in the past before CW Bendis/Hickman. When he let the villain run many people will die if he shoot the universe will possible die instead:

[Emma's Midriff]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commensurability_(ethics)

Why are you linking a wikipedia article? All I did was agree with you...

[vitruvian]

There is very little time when an incursion is imminent to allow some kind of democratic voting and that would be a huge undertaking anyway. I can't see the MU Earth coming to any kind of consensus.

Earth? Earth doesn't contain the only stakeholders in this, Incursions affect the entire universe.

And no, eight hours doesn't allow for even a small group to come to a consensus. That's why the Incursions should have been public, or at least all the superhero teams should have been informed, from the very beginning. In fact, I'm not quite sure why they started off being more proactively secretive about this problem than past events where the existence of the planet or universe was in question, except that by the nature of the Incursion zones they could be... at least until one opened in a populated area with witnesses. Then how were they proposing to keep the secret?

[KOSLOX]

Why are you linking a wikipedia article? All I did was agree with you...

Agree with me about what? Broad moral principles and their applications? Great. You can pass a first year ethics class.

[Emma's Midriff]

Agree with me about what? Broad moral principles and their applications? Great. You can pass a first year ethics class.

I don't know what you mean. My stance is that you should always try to save as many as you can, like Namor is doing.

I don't feel like it's that weird of a stance?

[KOSLOX]

Earth? Earth doesn't contain the only stakeholders in this, Incursions affect the entire universe.

And no, eight hours doesn't allow for even a small group to come to a consensus. That's why the Incursions should have been public, or at least all the superhero teams should have been informed, from the very beginning. In fact, I'm not quite sure why they started off being more proactively secretive about this problem than past events where the existence of the planet or universe was in question, except that by the nature of the Incursion zones they could be... at least until one opened in a populated area with witnesses. Then how were they proposing to keep the secret?

I think keeping it small initially was a good move, but that said once they got more information they should have started being more open with that information. Instead they tried to horde their information to the detriment of themselves and the world.

[KOSLOX]

I don't know what you mean. My stance is that you should always try to save as many as you can, like Namor is doing.

I don't feel like it's that weird of a stance?

I'm not saying it's weird, it's a valid stance, it's just not the only valid stance. I was just speaking academically about moral principles. I laid out what I would find moral a few posts later.

The reason I linked to wikipedia is because "Commensurability" or rather "Incommensurability" refers to why it's difficult to understand differing views on morality and their implications.