Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[Dataweaver]

Let's address the Cassandra stuff in the Cassandra thread why don't we?

[Assam]

Let's address the Cassandra stuff in the Cassandra thread why don't we?

The information is germane to the discussion.

[Dataweaver]

I think it's Steph being Robin. The relationship with her and Tim and her and Bruce does not seem to be consistent with her being either Batgirl or Robin. The problem with Steph's non-Batgirl post-War Games history is that it's pretty disposable (or stupid) - FabNic just had her running around screwing with Tim's head at Batman's behest during RIP. The big things are really her relationship with Cass (which has definitely not been restored, and needs to be), and her relationship with Tim, which is on its way. Slowly. Hopefully.

I intend to look into the possibilities of restoring Cass' backstory elsewhere. For now, I'll agree that restoring that is important to restoring Steph's time as Batgirl: Cass was, after all, the one who gave Steph the push to get her to become Batgirl.

As for her relationship with Tim: what needs to be restored? I'm not talking about shared history; a big part of the point of this exercise is to restore as much of that history as possible; and already we've agreed that at the very least, all of her history prior to becoming Robin can be restored without significant disruption of post-Flashpoint events. So don't look at the question of whether or not she could have been Robin in terms of the current status quo; look at it in terms of much of the pre-Flashpoint history having been restored. Recall that for much of that history, she was dating Tim; that dovetails surprisingly well with their portrayal in 'Tec, only with more buildup before they took their relationship to the next level.

[adrikito]

You know I never thought of it this way, but Steph's "History of the BatFamily" is sort of her book's equivalent to the "Cass knocks out Steph" running gag. If you're primarily a fan of the book they stem from, you love it and think it's really funny. But if you're more a fan of the opposite Batgirl, it just kinda pisses you off the more it's circulated around.

I put recently one imagen of Cass winning easily Steph(is funny)...I love both characters.. That can not bother me(it´s reality, not something crazy like D..k.. winning Jason).. For bother me you should use characters that I don´t like or I hate, something really crazy, or writers that I don´t like..

So: how much of Stephanie's pre-Flashpoint history do you think can be restored without significantly undermining her N52 history? For instance, recasting her involvement in Batman Eternal so that it all happened, but it wasn't her first time as Spoiler, would not constitute a significant undermining of N52 events in my book.

Even if Barbara is Batgirl, this is one IMPORTANT Thing of both girls story.. Suddenly, the Titans existed thanks to Titans Hunt... And as you mentioned Tim was Robin again.. Damian has 13 years now... DC can add that this happened(in some way) during the last 3 years, no? Restoring the existence of these roles you don´t restore all the Steph/Cass comics events but is something..

They can mention something like that Steph and Cass were batgirls like 6 months(barbara was oracle during this time and then, she returned as batgirl) could work, is only change a little N52 Barbara past...


But I don´t trust in DC with this.. Cass is not one character with 15 years now? She need more age for this... I can only trust that DC will put this again if YJ adds Cass in the season 4 and both characters are enought succefuls for add this again..

[millernumber1]

Hell, even now in Bombshells, Cass is finally in, but not as one of the Batgirls.

The exclusion of Steph and Cass from the Batgirls group has been my biggest consistent complaint about the book for years. It's so unnecessary.

I intend to look into the possibilities of restoring Cass' backstory elsewhere. For now, I'll agree that restoring that is important to restoring Steph's time as Batgirl: Cass was, after all, the one who gave Steph the push to get her to become Batgirl.

As for her relationship with Tim: what needs to be restored? I'm not talking about shared history; a big part of the point of this exercise is to restore as much of that history as possible; and already we've agreed that at the very least, all of her history prior to becoming Robin can be restored without significant disruption of post-Flashpoint events. So don't look at the question of whether or not she could have been Robin in terms of the current status quo; look at it in terms of much of the pre-Flashpoint history having been restored. Recall that for much of that history, she was dating Tim; that dovetails surprisingly well with their portrayal in 'Tec, only with more buildup before they took their relationship to the next level.

I agree - Cass is essential to any discussion of the Batgirl character, and you should not discuss Babs or Steph without talking about the way she made it possible for Batgirl to be considered a viable solo title.

I agree about Steph's relationship with Tim. We don't really have a good handle on what Tim's career is like, now - some version of the n52 happened (but obviously not all of it, or all in the same way), so we don't have a good handle on how Steph intertwined with that. As of now, though, I'm going to imagine that some version of Robin 1-100 happened.

I put recently one imagen of Cass winning easily Steph(is funny)...I love both characters.. That can not bother me(it´s reality, not something crazy like D..k.. winning Jason).. For bother me you should use characters that I don´t like or I hate, something really crazy, or writers that I don´t like..

They can mention something like that Steph and Cass were batgirls like 6 months(barbara was oracle during this time and then, she returned as batgirl) could work, is only change a little N52 Barbara past...

But I don´t trust in DC with this.. Cass is not one character with 15 years now? She need more age for this... I can only trust that DC will put this again if YJ adds Cass in the season 4 and both characters are enought succefuls for add this again..

To clarify - the reason I object to the Cass knocking Steph out scene was never because I think Steph can beat Cass in a fight. It's because the whole comic is incredibly disrespectful to Steph, which I don't think fits Cass's character or her care for Steph.

As for how old Cass is - I thought she was 16, and Steph is 17. I don't know for sure how old Cass and Steph were in pre-Flashpoint canon - Steph was about 16-17 when she started being Spoiler (at least, I think she was - she was supposed to be about a year older than Tim), and about 19 when she became Batgirl. I've always thought Cass should be about a year around Steph's age - so between 18-20 when she was Black Bat. But because of the nature of her origin, I don't know if they ever actually hammered down her age.

[adrikito]

As for how old Cass is - I thought she was 16, and Steph is 17. I don't know for sure how old Cass and Steph were in pre-Flashpoint canon - Steph was about 16-17 when she started being Spoiler (at least, I think she was - she was supposed to be about a year older than Tim), and about 19 when she became Batgirl. I've always thought Cass should be about a year around Steph's age - so between 18-20 when she was Black Bat. But because of the nature of her origin, I don't know if they ever actually hammered down her age.

I think that I heard this here... Cass 15, Tim 16 and Steph 17(this now).... Maybe I am wrong, but only for 1 year, sure..

For help both with the batgirls story, both girls between 17-19 years would be better..

[Assam]

I agree - Cass is essential to any discussion of the Batgirl character, and you should not discuss Babs or Steph without talking about the way she made it possible for Batgirl to be considered a viable solo title.

It's honestly just depressing the amount of people I've encountered who just assume that Babs was the first Batgirl with her own title.

To clarify - the reason I object to the Cass knocking Steph out scene was never because I think Steph can beat Cass in a fight. It's because the whole comic is incredibly disrespectful to Steph, which I don't think fits Cass's character or her care for Steph.

Adrikito is referring to the scenes from #28, not #27. And I know you don't like #27, but #28 is a strong candidate for the best team-up of the two.

As for how old Cass is - I thought she was 16, and Steph is 17. I don't know for sure how old Cass and Steph were in pre-Flashpoint canon - Steph was about 16-17 when she started being Spoiler (at least, I think she was - she was supposed to be about a year older than Tim), and about 19 when she became Batgirl. I've always thought Cass should be about a year around Steph's age - so between 18-20 when she was Black Bat. But because of the nature of her origin, I don't know if they ever actually hammered down her age.

Pre-FP, at the end, Cass was 19/20 and Steph was 19. Currently, I have no idea about Steph (Probably 16-17 though), and Tynion has described Cass on different occasions as 14, 15, 16 and 17.

[Frontier]

I agree - Cass is essential to any discussion of the Batgirl character, and you should not discuss Babs or Steph without talking about the way she made it possible for Batgirl to be considered a viable solo title.

Just like Tim as Robin.

[millernumber1]

It's honestly just depressing the amount of people I've encountered who just assume that Babs was the first Batgirl with her own title.

Pre-FP, at the end, Cass was 19/20 and Steph was 19. Currently, I have no idea about Steph (Probably 16-17 though), and Tynion has described Cass on different occasions as 14, 15, 16 and 17.

It is really depressing. Especially since you have all four boy Robins. I know I always bring it up, but if they can explain Jason and Damian, they can explain Steph and Cass.

Haha. The shifting ages. Cass is probably 15, until the end of Doomsday Clock, and then, like Damian in Rebirth, she'll jump forward a billion years all at once.

Just like Tim as Robin.

Yep!

[adrikito]

The PURPLE Robin:

stephanie brown purple robin.jpg

http://www.imgrum.org/media/15908498...870_5944792589

[millernumber1]

The PURPLE Robin:

stephanie brown purple robin.jpg

http://www.imgrum.org/media/15908498...870_5944792589

I love that redesign! Much as Dustin Nguyen's redesign is one of my favorite costumes for Steph, I wish they'd given her a domino mask. It lets her be free to emote, especially with her famous grin.

[Assam]

The PURPLE Robin:

stephanie brown purple robin.jpg

http://www.imgrum.org/media/15908498...870_5944792589

Pretty slick design. I dig it.

[adrikito]

I put the purple Robin but... We can see the S of spoiler.. MY MISTAKE, is spoiler with Robin style costume.

[Frontier]

The PURPLE Robin:

stephanie brown purple robin.jpg

http://www.imgrum.org/media/15908498...870_5944792589

Huh. Y'know, I've never thought of Steph with a domino mask, but it actually works surprisingly well .

I think it works better then the ninja mask because it gives her Spoiler eyes while still allowing for showing her face. If we can't get the actual Spoiler mask, then I'd prefer this to the ninja mask.

[adrikito]

Imagine that Spoiler is... A BOY(sorry, is not Stephen) in one alternative universe, this can be his appearance:

Even with the purple, he looks a serious character:

dc_remake_spoiler.jpg

I saw this in deviantart, similar to Steph past..

https://malfar.deviantart.com/art/DC...iler-713702030