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  1. #3331
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    Well it didn't seem that way to me she seemed oblivious to her own hypocrisy which is worrisome for her popularity. She already still has some haters leftover from War Games.
    Well, she realized her hypocrisy in "Utopia." Sadly, that arc was not well done (and by a guest writer), so I don't think people got it.

    The haters from War Games are the type of people who think it's fun to wish torture and death of fictional characters. I'm not too bothered by that.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  2. #3332
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Well, she realized her hypocrisy in "Utopia." Sadly, that arc was not well done (and by a guest writer), so I don't think people got it.

    The haters from War Games are the type of people who think it's fun to wish torture and death of fictional characters. I'm not too bothered by that.
    Hmm not sure Stephanie realised her hypocrisy in Utopia not when she still wanted Tim to give up vigilantism. But how did you see that my memory's a little foggy. Well it's not just those who wish death and torture on fictional characters who hate her. At least one guy I know thinks when she came back from the dead Stephanie should not have been welcomed back too quickly for causing the Gotham Gang War by accident. This was a guy who liked Stephanie and saw as the sign of what could happen if one worked hard enough. But then when the Gotham Gang War erupted he lost his liking for her.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  3. #3333
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    Hmm not sure Stephanie realised her hypocrisy in Utopia not when she still wanted Tim to give up vigilantism. But how did you see that my memory's a little foggy. Well it's not just those who wish death and torture on fictional characters who hate her. At least one guy I know thinks when she came back from the dead Stephanie should not have been welcomed back too quickly for causing the Gotham Gang War by accident. This was a guy who liked Stephanie and saw as the sign of what could happen if one worked hard enough. But then when the Gotham Gang War erupted he lost his liking for her.
    Steph definitely realized her hypocrisy - when Anarky asked her "Would Batman have done this?" she says "yup, he trained me on doing it." And further muses that everything she's been doing is what Batman does.

    I think Steph wanted Tim to give up being a vigilante because she thought it was best for him, with his specific gifting. I don't think she was against it in total, after the events of Utopia.

    There are a couple of people like that. I've talked to them, and I know they're not the same as the people who wished Steph had actually stayed dead. But I think that argument doesn't hold water, because:

    1) Steph's INTENTIONS were not to start the war. As far as we know, the plan was for Orpheus to take control. (This is weakened by how stupid the writing in War Games became, but the first third indicated that the plan went WRONG, and that's why there was a war.)

    2) Steph paid for it in blood. Even though she didn't die, she was tortured for a LONG time (I don't know if it was hours or days, but it was really long and really nasty.)

    3) Steph's whole career as Batgirl was an attempt to make Gotham better, in part motivated by her guilt for War Games. So there's another way she was paying for it.

    4) I'm always puzzled by what this type of argument wants. How do they think Steph should pay for her "sins"?
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  4. #3334
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Steph definitely realized her hypocrisy - when Anarky asked her "Would Batman have done this?" she says "yup, he trained me on doing it." And further muses that everything she's been doing is what Batman does.

    I think Steph wanted Tim to give up being a vigilante because she thought it was best for him, with his specific gifting. I don't think she was against it in total, after the events of Utopia.

    There are a couple of people like that. I've talked to them, and I know they're not the same as the people who wished Steph had actually stayed dead. But I think that argument doesn't hold water, because:

    1) Steph's INTENTIONS were not to start the war. As far as we know, the plan was for Orpheus to take control. (This is weakened by how stupid the writing in War Games became, but the first third indicated that the plan went WRONG, and that's why there was a war.)

    2) Steph paid for it in blood. Even though she didn't die, she was tortured for a LONG time (I don't know if it was hours or days, but it was really long and really nasty.)

    3) Steph's whole career as Batgirl was an attempt to make Gotham better, in part motivated by her guilt for War Games. So there's another way she was paying for it.

    4) I'm always puzzled by what this type of argument wants. How do they think Steph should pay for her "sins"?
    Huh I must have skimmed that part I really wish she had stuck around to hear Batman tell her that Tim was alive then she could have dealt with the future Tim and maybe mend bridges between her and the Batfamily. I getting the impression that that one person who lost his liking for Stephanie wanted Stephanie to be confronted for what happened and doesn't care for the shoddy writing and overlooks the accident part of the Gotham Gang War. As long as it did happen he wants her to be confronted over it.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  5. #3335
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    Huh I must have skimmed that part I really wish she had stuck around to hear Batman tell her that Tim was alive then she could have dealt with the future Tim and maybe mend bridges between her and the Batfamily. I getting the impression that that one person who lost his liking for Stephanie wanted Stephanie to be confronted for what happened and doesn't care for the shoddy writing and overlooks the accident part of the Gotham Gang War. As long as it did happen he wants her to be confronted over it.
    I really wish they hadn't done Utopia in the way they did. It was basically an incredibly frustrating filler arc, and Steph missing Batman telling her that Tim's alive is a big part of that.

    Steph was confronted, by Babs, explicitly, in Batgirl #2, about her part in War Games. I feel like a lot of people want Steph to be punished by staying dead or something. Like...she was tortured nearly to death, and had to take a year recovering, away from everyone who loved her except Leslie. What more do you want?
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  6. #3336
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I really wish they hadn't done Utopia in the way they did. It was basically an incredibly frustrating filler arc, and Steph missing Batman telling her that Tim's alive is a big part of that.

    Steph was confronted, by Babs, explicitly, in Batgirl #2, about her part in War Games. I feel like a lot of people want Steph to be punished by staying dead or something. Like...she was tortured nearly to death, and had to take a year recovering, away from everyone who loved her except Leslie. What more do you want?
    Since Tim's death a lot things in Detective Comics stumbled at the finish line and Utopia was made even worse by how the writer tried to do too much at once. Well I guess when it comes down to it the answer is simple hatred is a irrational. And comic book fans are the ones most prone to that irrationality there's no point in trying to please anybody. They should just take things as they come because I feel like comic book fans are way too immersed into a reality that's fictional it's kind of creepy.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  7. #3337
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    I think the first time I read Steph was in War Games I had no idea who she was I think I stumbled into it because I was reading Catwoman at the time. This is years after War Games had come out, I was also reading Geoff Johns Teen Titans and saw a female Robin and later found out that she was the female robin. That got me interested to see what else she was in and I found out she was Batgirl and then read all of her Batgirl series. That is also how I found out about Cass too by the way I first read her in Teen Titans and then she appeared in Steph's Batgirl series and that made me look up who this character was.

  8. #3338
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    Since Tim's death a lot things in Detective Comics stumbled at the finish line and Utopia was made even worse by how the writer tried to do too much at once. Well I guess when it comes down to it the answer is simple hatred is a irrational. And comic book fans are the ones most prone to that irrationality there's no point in trying to please anybody. They should just take things as they come because I feel like comic book fans are way too immersed into a reality that's fictional it's kind of creepy.
    Well, we are fanatics. But I agree. I am all for getting really invested in characters (no, really? ), but it's a hobby, not my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by reni344 View Post
    I think the first time I read Steph was in War Games I had no idea who she was I think I stumbled into it because I was reading Catwoman at the time. This is years after War Games had come out, I was also reading Geoff Johns Teen Titans and saw a female Robin and later found out that she was the female robin. That got me interested to see what else she was in and I found out she was Batgirl and then read all of her Batgirl series. That is also how I found out about Cass too by the way I first read her in Teen Titans and then she appeared in Steph's Batgirl series and that made me look up who this character was.
    Interesting! I think I'd seen a couple things with Steph before War Games - the issue of Batgirl where Cass knocks her out all the time (which I thought was funny at the time, and I thought Steph was annoying, but now I strongly dislike that issue), and read something about her giving her baby up for adoption in a DC encyclopedia, but War Games was the first time I really noticed Steph as a character (of course, I really wanted her to live, but she died and I was very sad). It's so fun how reading one or two things becomes reading lots of side things that interest you. All part of the great fan experience!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  9. #3339
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Well, we are fanatics. But I agree. I am all for getting really invested in characters (no, really? ), but it's a hobby, not my life.
    Indeed some folks really should just take some time away from comics and maybe see a therapist because I know people have read comics as a means of coping with their life's issues but to be way too invested is a sign that they should step back and take a look at their lives. I actually propposed to a friedn to help me with a project where Marvle and DC characters are not necessary for the future of mankind and well he didn't like the idea.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  10. #3340
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  11. #3341
    SON OF BATMAN adrikito's Avatar
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    The Hooded Robins:

    Attachment 65786
    Last edited by adrikito; 05-11-2018 at 02:14 PM.
    Waiting for the first Damian girlfriend.
    Cass is with the Outsiders. Waiting for one comic with Steph.

  12. #3342
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Just a weird thought, if they're making steph being Batgirl cannon, does that mean that that the hints of BMQ having her be the future Nightwing is still an option now?

  13. #3343
    Danger Doll in pink! Chickfighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    Just a weird thought, if they're making steph being Batgirl cannon, does that mean that that the hints of BMQ having her be the future Nightwing is still an option now?
    Don't get carried away, but there's "always run for hope..."

  14. #3344
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrikito View Post
    The Hooded Robins:

    Attachment 65786
    Cool image! Who drew it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    Just a weird thought, if they're making steph being Batgirl cannon, does that mean that that the hints of BMQ having her be the future Nightwing is still an option now?
    Not in the Titans of Tomorrow future, at least what we have seen so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chickfighter View Post
    Don't get carried away, but there's "always run for hope..."
    Steph, as always, said it best!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  15. #3345
    SON OF BATMAN adrikito's Avatar
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    NOTHING IMPORTANT(because this donīt confirm her presence here and we are talking about another universe), BUT.. I like to see that other people that remembers her with love after the bad events of the last year.

    https://www.newsarama.com/39922-how-...-a-sequel.html

    If Murphy takes Batman off the table as he hinted in his final panel, then despite the existence of the GTO, more criminals can come crawling out the woodwork. Murphy has shown a knack for using various members of Bruce's inner-circle after all, with Duke Thomas even being retconned into an urban military leader. This leaves room for new faces such as Tim Drake, Azrael, and Spoiler to appear as new vigilantes who might not be too trusting of the GTO, because at the end of the day, taxpayers are footing the bill, which means Gordon will have to be held accountable and that he may be receiving direction from financiers.
    Last edited by adrikito; 05-15-2018 at 06:58 AM.
    Waiting for the first Damian girlfriend.
    Cass is with the Outsiders. Waiting for one comic with Steph.

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