Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[Assam]

I get it. I think King's not really as anti-Cass as some of his statements have made it seem, but he's definitely not super interested in writing Cass. Maybe he's like Snyder - as a reader, he's a fan, but as a writer, he doesn't have much to say?

As I was trying to say there, his comments about Cass are the least of my issues with him. (Though I'd be lying if I said they didn't bother me at all.)

I'm a much bigger fan of the scenes where they train together.

Definitely agree on that.

[millernumber1]

As I was trying to say there, his comments about Cass are the least of my issues with him. (Though I'd be lying if I said they didn't bother me at all.)

Interesting. I will admit, King's nowhere close to Tynion for me (I don't buy Batman regularly, but I've bought every single issue of Tec so far), but maybe it's just my dislike of Snyder and Morrison, but King's been something I actually enjoy reading. Probably because I like Batman and Catwoman as a ship.

[Assam]

Interesting. I will admit, King's nowhere close to Tynion for me (I don't buy Batman regularly, but I've bought every single issue of Tec so far), but maybe it's just my dislike of Snyder and Morrison, but King's been something I actually enjoy reading. Probably because I like Batman and Catwoman as a ship.

I'll say this for each. Morrison has written the most stuff I like in general (Yes, even with the small amount of things I told you I liked from him), but I feel he had the largest long-term negative impact on the franchise. (King is definitely in second though.) Snyder I've only read a few storylines from and didn't care for his Nu52 work, but he DID write the best Bat stories of the three with his Pre-Nu52 stories Black Mirror and Gates of Gotham. And King is the one I'm currently the most pissed at, but at the same time, despite my frustrations regarding Victor, I still really like Vision as a story.

I'd say Tynion is about Snyder's equal in terms of writing quality, each having their own strengths and weaknesses.

[Dataweaver]

Is War Games itself the stocking point? Because if so, I think there's a way around it.

Steph's time as Robin ended on a traumatic note, with Batman during her. Originally, this lead directly into War Games, which also ended on a traumatic note: her apparent death, which was later retconned to Leslie snuggling her out of the country and her taking a “sabbatical” in Africa before returning later on in Dixon's second run. So why not just skip straight from “fired by Batman” to “sabbatical in Africa”, with the firing being the justification for the sabbatical? And if you do that, how much of Stephanie's post-War Games history could be recovered?

[Assam]

And if you do that, how much of Stephanie's post-War Games history could be recovered?

Pretty much all of her post-War Games history is as Batgirl. And while the events from her Batgirl book could be said to have happened with her as Spoiler, they kind of lose any meaning without the full history behind those stories.

[millernumber1]

Is War Games itself the stocking point? Because if so, I think there's a way around it.

Steph's time as Robin ended on a traumatic note, with Batman during her. Originally, this lead directly into War Games, which also ended on a traumatic note: her apparent death, which was later retconned to Leslie snuggling her out of the country and her taking a “sabbatical” in Africa before returning later on in Dixon's second run. So why not just skip straight from “fired by Batman” to “sabbatical in Africa”, with the firing being the justification for the sabbatical? And if you do that, how much of Stephanie's post-War Games history could be recovered?

I think it's Steph being Robin. The relationship with her and Tim and her and Bruce does not seem to be consistent with her being either Batgirl or Robin. The problem with Steph's non-Batgirl post-War Games history is that it's pretty disposable (or stupid) - FabNic just had her running around screwing with Tim's head at Batman's behest during RIP. The big things are really her relationship with Cass (which has definitely not been restored, and needs to be), and her relationship with Tim, which is on its way. Slowly. Hopefully.

[Frontier]

I agree with Endsong - pretty much all of the Dixon stuff can be filled in in some way. But her time as Robin and Batgirl...yeah. Robin can't be allowed because it's between Tim and Damian and even only three months made a huge impact on continuity (at least, I think it did). And Batgirl is so dependent on Cass and Babs having their history restored - and Babs hasn't had enough of it restored, even with the Bensons doing their best. I could maybe see some storylines like The Flood being restored a bit, fitting them into the Batgirl #46-52 slot, with Steph as Spoiler, and we know some version of the Flood happened, because it's foundational for Death of Oracle, which we know some version happened since it was key to the Oracle plotline in Bird of Prey last year. But Batgirl Rising is out, and Batgirl: The Lesson is precluded by Cluemaster being still dead.

They would also have to come up with a plausible reason why Steph would go back to being Spoiler to justify Babs becoming Batgirl again, if they tried to restore the Batgirls' careers while still keeping things relatively status quo.

[TheCape]

Frankly, i think that there is zero chance of Cassandra and Steph times to be restored any time soon.

[Frontier]

Frankly, i think that there is zero chance of Cassandra and Steph times to be restored any time soon.

We can still hope though .

[millernumber1]

They would also have to come up with a plausible reason why Steph would go back to being Spoiler to justify Babs becoming Batgirl again, if they tried to restore the Batgirls' careers while still keeping things relatively status quo.

Yeah. I'm betting it would be "I filled in for Babs when she was in Asia or something." But this Steph is two years younger, and in a very different place in her career (though I personally think her time away from the Knights is a deliberate attempt by Tynion to give her some of that stage of her career - a more solo-focused career, not dependent on Bruce or Tim for her plans or materiel.

Frankly, i think that there is zero chance of Cassandra and Steph times to be restored any time soon.

I think there's a solid chance of at least some version of Steph's history with Tim being restored. I think that sadly, you're right about Cass. We've gotten the re-do of Cass's discovery that Shiva is her mother, so that's obviously not going to be restored.

We can still hope though .

That's why we're Steph fans, isn't it?

[Assam]

All of this is pretty much why I have to maintain my headcanon that New Earth was never touched by Manhattan, and it was just a very similar Earth that had its time stolen. Without believing that to be true, I wouldn't be able to enjoy anything from Rebirth.

[millernumber1]

All of this is pretty much why I have to maintain my headcanon that New Earth was never touched by Manhattan, and it was just a very similar Earth that had its time stolen. Without believing that to be true, I wouldn't be able to enjoy anything from Rebirth.

I mean, it's New Earth, not Earth 0, right?

[Dataweaver]

Frankly, i think that there is zero chance of Cassandra and Steph times to be restored any time soon.

That's what I thought about Tim's origin before a lonely place of living restored it.

[millernumber1]

That's what I thought about Tim's origin before a lonely place of living restored it.

Very true! It's why I still have hope!

[Assam]

That's what I thought about Tim's origin before a lonely place of living restored it.

Tim was never wiped from canon and didn't have a history of editorial bias against him. The fact that the bat symbol was banned from appearing on the Orphan suit for the reasoning of not wanting any young woman to wear the symbol besides Babs basically confirms that there's no chance at all until there's an editorial change. Hell, even now in Bombshells, Cass is finally in, but not as one of the Batgirls.