Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[Frontier]

But seeing Steph act like she was her best friend at a time where it seemed like she didn't give half a f**k about her actual best friend? That doesn't get a pass from me.

It did seem kind of random to see Steph and Kara acting so close, but I didn't think they were acting like Kara was Steph's best friend beyond acknowledging the tradition of Supergirl being Batgirl's best friend.

[millernumber1]

So which leg do you want broken first?

But no, I disagree with this. I outlined how I would have done it awhile ago if you recall, and I still think that would have been a brilliant way to go about it. (There is one change I'd make though.) There's no denying that Miller's methods worked in terms of allowing Steph to shine and growing her a fanbase. But that doesn't change the fact that what we saw ended up turning the relationship between the two previously very friendly fanbases into a quite toxic one. There are still plenty of Cass fans who hate Steph for taking the mantle, even today and even for me, the treatment of Cass is what keeps me from loving Steph's book.

I think the order of events goes something like this: Editorial kicks Cass out of the Batgirl suit using the deliberately sabotaged Vol. 2 as an excuse. Steph's book starts. Morrison gets dibs on using her in Inc. Simone is denied using her in BoP because of Morrison's dibs. With her new Morrison given identity in place, FabNic gets permission to use her in Red Robin.

In the outline I refereed to, Cass would be a part of the book for about 3/4ths of a year before going to be Tim's co-star in Red Robin, having occasional appearances in Batgirl, thus allowing for a smooth transition.

I wonder how much of my hatred of Kara comes from her appearances in Batgirl...not relevant right now.

I did acknowledge that you would disagree. But fundamentally, while I think your outline of events would have made a great story, it would have been a Cass solo with Steph as a supporting character. I'm talking about Steph as Batgirl, succeeding as a solo character. I don't think that means Cass needed to disappear, but I do think it means she would need to be in a different title for most of the first year.

But seeing Steph act like she was her best friend at a time where it seemed like she didn't give half a f**k about her actual best friend? That doesn't get a pass from me.

1) I think I've said this before, but it's pretty clear from what actually happened that DC was treating the friendship between Steph and Cass as something that had changed significantly since Steph returned from the dead. There are strong textual arguments to be made that it hadn't necessarily (based largely on the Cass dream sequences in Batiglr 70-73), but I think claiming that the friendship was just the same as it was before Steph died is a only works if you do a certain amount of deliberately suppressing the text published. Which, if you want to go with your own fan-selected-canon, is fine - it's certainly an approach everyone has to take given the sheer volume of stuff out there - but there's a lot more evidence that Steph's relationships had changed a lot since she came back than she's ready to fall into old patterns.

2) This ties back to my hatred of Cass knocking Steph out, but even in their best issues, Cass never seemed to think that Steph was really worth standing up for. She was worth training, and she was an important part of her forming bonds to life instead of just to the mission, but she never once told Bruce he was wrong to ban Steph from being a hero, or firing her as Robin, or anything. She showed concern during War Games, but that's not the same as standing up for her.

It did seem kind of random to see Steph and Kara acting so close, but I didn't think they were acting like Kara was Steph's best friend beyond acknowledging the tradition of Supergirl being Batgirl's best friend.

It was supposed to be playing off of the Worlds Finest miniseries by Sterling Gates, I believe. They reference it, and I can see the way BQM wrote them as girls who like each other, but don't know each other that well yet. The way they don't seem to have a routine setup to meet as civilians, the BFFs joke, and the fact that Kara doesn't know that Steph needs to change into her costume all seem like this is a new friendship.

[dominus]

Here it is...I got kind of into it:

"Assuming that Morrison had to be left unbothered and that Cass was still going to be left out of Battle for the Cowl, despite how little sense her absence made, this is what I'd go with:

Batgirl #1 has the great scene of Cass and Steph fighting together from the original, but Cass doesn't leave here. Steph goes home, while Cass goes to see Babs, and while it wouldn't make sense for their ACTUAL reunion to be only happening now, it'd be treated as a reunion for them for the reader. Both would remark how much Steph has grown. Babs would mention how she isn't the only one (referring to Cass) but getting back on topic they'd mention how she could still be even better if she only had more faith in herself. The three would do a quick mission together, and at the end, they decide to not just let this be an occasional thing anymore.

*snipped for brevity*

And apart from just the idea of "Cass helps form Team Batgirl", I JUST thought of all this. No the ideas aren't entirely fleshed out, but with these 7 issues, we get: A satisfying character arc for Cass which ties back thematically to her solo series, some more fun and emotional moments with Babs, Steph and Cass together reminiscent of the days from before everything went to crap, an actual reunion between Cass and Babs, Steph slowly settling into the role of Batgirl, but the conflict of her being THE Batgirl still left open, "Team Batgirl" no longer being insulting to Cass fans,the first meeting for Damian with the girls and a chance for Dick and Cass to put their recent crap behind them, and a very clear point that no, Cass isn't being kicked out as Batgirl, this IS a promotion."

This is actually pretty decent, and I could see it healing some wounds.

As for the rest, well..

DC just needs to admit that N52 and Rebirth were just complete failures.

[Dataweaver]

N52, sure. But Rebirth? While it has its flaws, I wouldn't call it a failure; I'd call it a step in the right direction.

[Caivu]

DC just needs to admit that N52 and Rebirth were just complete failures.

The New 52 wasn't a complete failure, and Rebirth isn't a failure at all (even if some things are still "wrong").

[Dataweaver]

And frankly, if DC announced today that nothing from September 2011 to now counts and that they're picking up where they left of just before Flashpoint, none of the issues that we've been talking about would be fixed.

[millernumber1]

This is actually pretty decent, and I could see it healing some wounds.

As for the rest, well..

DC just needs to admit that N52 and Rebirth were just complete failures.

Like I said, it would be a very good Cass story, leading into a possibly good Steph story. But Cass leaving, unless as Assam suggests, she goes to another title as a lead or lead supporting character (like Red Robin/Black Bat), would only delay the problem, and there's not really a chance that Steph fans would really be on board after 9 months of a Cass book for it finally to be a Steph solo book. I mean, people like me would be like, "Yay! Steph finally gets her own chance! What a bold move!" But 9 issues in, a title has already found its level, and you'd be losing all the Cass fan sales and wouldn't get new readers on board on issue 10 unless you also had a creative change or relaunch.

I do think more should have been done by other titles, like RIP and Outsiders, to give Cass a direction, but I still would strongly argue that if you don't start with Batgirl #1, Steph clearly the main character by the end of the that 20 pages, you don't achieve a successful solo for Steph.

N52 was a mess. I don't think it's a complete failure. Batman Eternal, Grayson, Omega Men, Snyder's Batman (even though I don't much like it), Azzarello's Wonder Woman (even though I HATE it), Batman and Robin/Robin Son of Batman - all of these have far-reaching consequences and much love, and I'd argue several of them are really excellent achievements as well.

But most of those either are successful by sheer skill and willpower and advertising, or because they're course corrections (Batman Eternal in particular).

N52, sure. But Rebirth? While it has its flaws, I wouldn't call it a failure; I'd call it a step in the right direction.

Agreed. Rebirth really revitalized the DC fanbase, I think.

The New 52 wasn't a complete failure, and Rebirth isn't a failure at all (even if some things are still "wrong").

The n52 was a wrong direction, but it did what it was intended to do, and the negatives are hopefully being learned from.

And frankly, if DC announced today that nothing from September 2011 to now counts and that they're picking up where they left of just before Flashpoint, none of the issues that we've been talking about would be fixed.

Yeah. You'd still need someone on major titles who actually wanted to fix the Cass issue. Which we had in 2011 with Snyder and Higgins, but now...Snyder would never do a Cass book, since he wants to do something outside of Gotham now (and if he were in Gotham, it'd be all about Duke), and Higgins isn't really at DC, New Order notwithstanding. It's all on Tynion now, and he's purely a n52 writer.

[Assam]

1) I think I've said this before, but it's pretty clear from what actually happened that DC was treating the friendship between Steph and Cass as something that had changed significantly since Steph returned from the dead. There are strong textual arguments to be made that it hadn't necessarily (based largely on the Cass dream sequences in Batiglr 70-73), but I think claiming that the friendship was just the same as it was before Steph died is a only works if you do a certain amount of deliberately suppressing the text published. Which, if you want to go with your own fan-selected-canon, is fine - it's certainly an approach everyone has to take given the sheer volume of stuff out there - but there's a lot more evidence that Steph's relationships had changed a lot since she came back than she's ready to fall into old patterns.

And that makes this better how exactly? It kinda makes it worse.

2) This ties back to my hatred of Cass knocking Steph out, but even in their best issues, Cass never seemed to think that Steph was really worth standing up for. She was worth training, and she was an important part of her forming bonds to life instead of just to the mission, but she never once told Bruce he was wrong to ban Steph from being a hero, or firing her as Robin, or anything. She showed concern during War Games, but that's not the same as standing up for her.

Steph got a very clear skill boost when she became Batgirl. Over the course of the story I outlined, she'd show Cass just how much better she'd gotten.

N52, sure. But Rebirth? While it has its flaws, I wouldn't call it a failure; I'd call it a step in the right direction.

Considering 'Rebirth' is over, unless we're going to count EVERYTHING from now till the next reboot as Rebirth, I'd say it was pretty crap. Marginally better than the Nu52.

The New 52 wasn't a complete failure

Things I liked in the Nu52: Aquaman, Secret Six, Aquaman and the Others. Few other things I kinda liked, but none that kept my interest.

Yeah. You'd still need someone on major titles who actually wanted to fix the Cass issue. Which we had in 2011 with Snyder and Higgins, but now...Snyder would never do a Cass book, since he wants to do something outside of Gotham now (and if he were in Gotham, it'd be all about Duke), and Higgins isn't really at DC, New Order notwithstanding. It's all on Tynion now, and he's purely a n52 writer.

Snyder's leaving Gotham, Tynion is a Nu52 writer, Simone only wants to enjoy Cass as a fan, Bryan Hill isn't on a major title, Valentine and Higgens aren't at DC...oye.

[millernumber1]

And that makes this better how exactly? It kinda makes it worse.

Steph got a very clear skill boost when she became Batgirl. Over the course of the story I outlined, she'd show Cass just how much better she'd gotten.

Snyder's leaving Gotham, Tynion is a Nu52 writer, Simone only wants to enjoy Cass as a fan, Bryan Hill isn't on a major title, Valentine and Higgens aren't at DC...oye.

It doesn't make it better. It's the text we have to deal with. And the point of reading texts in community is that everyone is working from the same text. If we only use our fan-selected or fanon interpolations in conversation, it confuses people who read Cass's three trades and Steph's two trades and try to figure out what the relationship is. Even if they read everything on comixology, the specific interpretation that "Steph is still Cass's best friend despite the changes that her death brought, and then the horrific Evil Cass storyline brought" relies too heavily on things that simply aren't there. If we were writing our own stories in a shared universe like the DC New Dawn thingy on this forum, then we could use that shared assumption and fanon interpolations. But in terms of what is actually in the comics, it's not settled that Cass feels the same way about Steph that she did when Steph died.

I don't think Steph got a skill boost that's unusual for a few years of training. What she got was people - both civilians and the hero community - who believed in her as a hero who could be responsible for a major role. I don't think Steph could or should ever be as good as Cass at fighting - anywhere close. But I do think she's good enough to be Batgirl if given proper equipment and support. Your story does give her that, but it doesn't give her an actual solo for 9 months. Which is still a great story, but it's not a Steph solo.

Snyder is like Simone - only wants to enjoy Cass as a fan. That's a good way to put it. I do think it's a shame that Valentine never got a chance to write Cass outside of Batman and Robin Eternal, though she did a pretty solid job there.

[Dataweaver]

I agree with millernumber1: the problem with Assam's suggestion is that it doesn't feature Stephanie prominently enough. At the very least, Stephanie needs a character arc of her own that's more than “Cass recruits Stephanie to Team Batgirl; Team Batgirl bonds; months later, Cass splits, leaving Stephanie as the de facto solo Batgirl”. What's missing here is the same sorts of character-defining and -developing moments that you outlined for Cass.

And even if you did add them in, you'd still have the problem that Stephanie wouldn't be the lead for over half a year.

The issues you bring up are important ones that deserved to be addressed; just somewhere other than Stephanie's book.

[Dataweaver]

Considering 'Rebirth' is over, unless we're going to count EVERYTHING from now till the next reboot as Rebirth, I'd say it was pretty crap. Marginally better than the Nu52.

Personally, I'm not going to consider it “over” until Doomsday Clock is done; that will be the point when the plot threads introduced in DCU Rebirth will supposedly be resolved.

[millernumber1]

Personally, I'm not going to consider it “over” until Doomsday Clock is done; that will be the point when the plot threads introduced in DCU Rebirth will supposedly be resolved.

Well said. And even then. If it's making tons of money, look for "SPINNING OUT OF DOOMSDAY CLOCK!"

[Dataweaver]

What I like most about Assam's outline is the way that Cass giving up the Batgirl identity doesn't come out of the blue: I think having her guest-star in Batman and Robin about a month or two before the new Batgirl series launches could work as a way for her to get the idea in her head that she can move on from Batgirl to something that's her own. (Also, I would have been fine with her being part of the Battle for the Cowl, which could also be used for this purpose.)

[Assam]

I get what you guys are saying about it not being Steph's book for awhile with my idea, but I don't personally see that as a problem. Her book, up until the recent trades, was never called 'Stephanie Brown: Batgirl', but Batgirl. It would still be about characters calling themselves Batgirl. And in regards to sales dropping after the departure, ideally, the book would be well written enough and Steph interesting and likable enough that the fans who were originally picking it up for Cass would stick around. There used to be a lot more common ground between the fandoms.

Also, I would have been fine with her being part of the Battle for the Cowl, which could also be used for this purpose.)

Now see, I noted that I was excluding messing around with that story, but I definitely have some ideas on how I'd have told that story. And I'm not just talking about making Cass a main part of the action, I mean in general, because that story was a bloody mess.

I'll write out an outline on that end if anyone's interested (likely on the Cass thread) but I'll say that if I could do what I wanted there, I'd probably only need to have Cass be around for the first two or so issues of Batgirl in bit parts.

[Dataweaver]

I get what you guys are saying about it not being Steph's book for awhile with my idea, but I don't personally see that as a problem. Her book, up until the recent trades, was never called 'Stephanie Brown: Batgirl', but Batgirl. It would still be about characters calling themselves Batgirl.

Let's turn this around. Say, for the sake of argument, that the plan was for Dick to pass on the Nightwing identity to Cass. So we concoct an elaborate seven-month storyline in Nightwing where Duck brings Cass under his wing and has her suit up in a Nightwing-like costume and works alongside her for awhile, with both of them being called Nightwing. Then, at the end of the seven months, Dick drops the Nightwing identity and becomes Batman and leaves Cass to her own devices as the now one and only Nightwing.

Alternately, Dick contacts Cass and tells her that he thinks she'd benefit from being Nightwing, gives her a costume, and tells her to have at it; so from issue #1, the new Nightwing title is about Cassandra and how she deals with the new responsibilities that come with her new identity.

Setting aside for the moment the question of whether “Nightwing” is a good fit for Cass (let's assume that the writer can make her interesting in the role), and as a Cassandra Cain fan, which would you rather see: the version where she's at best sharing the spotlight with Dick and at worst is being unfavorably contrasted with him, or the version where she's the lead character from the start, and gets to make the book her own right away instead of having to wait half a year first?

The same holds true with Stephanie: giving her the full spotlight right off the bat is preferable to waiting six or seven months during which she's at best a costar and very likely viewed by the general audience as “the poor man's Batgirl”. No matter how competent she's shown to be, she's still essentially Cass' trainee for most of those six months; and their constant proximity all but screams for the readers to judge Stephanie in comparison to Cass rather than on her own merits — which more likely than not would merely drive a different kind of wedge between the two fanbases.

The best thing for Stephanie would be to get the spotlight from day one; and since the ultimate purpose of the title was to redeem and promote Stephanie, what's best for Stephanie should take precedence.

And in regards to sales dropping after the departure, ideally, the book would be well written enough and Steph interesting and likable enough that the fans who were originally picking it up for Cass would stick around.

…and, to paraphrase several characters from The Sound of Music with respect to the opportunist Max, it wouldn't do Cass' popularity any harm either — which, frankly, is what I figure you're more concerned about.

Now see, I noted that I was excluding messing around with that story, but I definitely have some ideas on how I'd have told that story. And I'm not just talking about making Cass a main part of the action, I mean in general, because that story was a bloody mess.

I'll write out an outline on that end if anyone's interested (likely on the Cass thread) but I'll say that if I could do what I wanted there, I'd probably only need to have Cass be around for the first two or so issues of Batgirl in bit parts.

As I pointed out above, that would be preferable. So let's hear it: I'll be monitoring the Cass thread for your alternate take on the Battle for the Cowl.