Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[millernumber1]

What I like most about Assam's outline is the way that Cass giving up the Batgirl identity doesn't come out of the blue: I think having her guest-star in Batman and Robin about a month or two before the new Batgirl series launches could work as a way for her to get the idea in her head that she can move on from Batgirl to something that's her own. (Also, I would have been fine with her being part of the Battle for the Cowl, which could also be used for this purpose.)

Yup. All that setup could and should have been done beforehand. But the fact that she was kicked out of her own team book by Tomasi, and Battle for the Cowl completely ignored her (not that she would have gotten GOOD characterization from it, but she wouldn't have been MIA for no good reason, at least) killed that possibility.

I get what you guys are saying about it not being Steph's book for awhile with my idea, but I don't personally see that as a problem. Her book, up until the recent trades, was never called 'Stephanie Brown: Batgirl', but Batgirl. It would still be about characters calling themselves Batgirl. And in regards to sales dropping after the departure, ideally, the book would be well written enough and Steph interesting and likable enough that the fans who were originally picking it up for Cass would stick around. There used to be a lot more common ground between the fandoms.

Well, it makes sense that you don't see it as a problem. Just as I don't feel the mistreatment of Cass destroys my enjoyment of Steph's solo as it exists. It's all about the character you are more invested in, and for me, it's Steph. (Also, it's called "Batgirl: Stephanie Brown" now in trade ).

That being said, the point of the book was clearly a Steph solo, though it has a LOT of Babs (at least for the first year).

Let's turn this around. Say, for the sake of argument, that the plan was for Dick to pass on the Nightwing identity to Cass. So we concoct an elaborate seven-month storyline in Nightwing where Duck brings Cass under his wing and has her suit up in a Nightwing-like costume and works alongside her for awhile, with both of them being called Nightwing. Then, at the end of the seven months, Dick drops the Nightwing identity and becomes Batman and leaves Cass to her own devices as the now one and only Nightwing.

Alternately, Dick contacts Cass and tells her that he thinks she'd benefit from being Nightwing, gives her a costume, and tells her to have at it; so from issue #1, the new Nightwing title is about Cassandra and how she deals with the new responsibilities that come with her new identity.

Setting aside for the moment the question of whether “Nightwing” is a good fit for Cass (let's assume that the writer can make her interesting in the role), and as a Cassandra Cain fan, which would you rather see: the version where she's at best sharing the spotlight with Dick and at worst is being unfavorably contrasted with him, or the version where she's the lead character from the start, and gets to make the book her own right away instead of having to wait half a year first?

The same holds true with Stephanie: giving her the full spotlight right off the bat is preferable to waiting six or seven months during which she's at best a costar and very likely viewed by the general audience as “the poor man's Batgirl”. No matter how competent she's shown to be, she's still essentially Cass' trainee for most of those six months; and their constant proximity all but screams for the readers to judge Stephanie in comparison to Cass rather than on her own merits — which more likely than not would merely drive a different kind of wedge between the two fanbases.

The best thing for Stephanie would be to get the spotlight from day one; and since the ultimate purpose of the title was to redeem and promote Stephanie, what's best for Stephanie should take precedence.

…and, to paraphrase several characters from The Sound of Music with respect to the opportunist Max, it wouldn't do Cass' popularity any harm either — which, frankly, is what I figure you're more concerned about.

As I pointed out above, that would be preferable. So let's hear it: I'll be monitoring the Cass thread for your alternate take on the Battle for the Cowl.

Good parallel counterfactual there. The biggest problem with Steph in a series where Cass is actively functioning in the same general area is that she cannot compete on a sheer combat level, and thus there's going to be a constant pressure to be the same kind of Batgirl, or for people top wish for the better Batgirl.

And that's not what a Steph Batgirl series would need for Steph to become respected as Batgirl. Now, if your position is, as I know it is for many Cass fans, that Steph's natural place in the universe is as Cass's sidekick, then you have little desire to see Steph strike out on her own.

But I do.

[Assam]

As I pointed out above, that would be preferable. So let's hear it: I'll be monitoring the Cass thread for your alternate take on the Battle for the Cowl.

I'll try to get to that soon. To make sure I get details straight, I'm probably gonna reread Battle for the Cowl first...which isn't exactly something I want to do.

(Also, it's called "Batgirl: Stephanie Brown" now in trade ).

I got it backwards. Sue me.

Now, if your position is, as I know it is for many Cass fans, that Steph's natural place in the universe is as Cass's sidekick, then you have little desire to see Steph strike out on her own.

It's less for me that I feel that it's Steph's 'place' to be Cass's sidekick than it is my thinking that she's never been better than in the issues where she was Cass's sidekick.

[Godlike13]

Thats not really better, lol. She came off as a joke when with Cass. Steph was comically dismissed and beat up by Cass. If Cass was ever treated like Steph was when she was next to Cass, Cass fans would go ape ****.

[Frontier]

Can I just say what an interesting experience it has been for me reading the Batgirls in backwards chronological order ?

[millernumber1]

I got it backwards. Sue me.

It's less for me that I feel that it's Steph's 'place' to be Cass's sidekick than it is my thinking that she's never been better than in the issues where she was Cass's sidekick.

I was just joking about the Batgirl Stephanie Brown thing.

See, I think Steph has had some really great stuff as Cass's sidekick, but I do think that's how Puckett and Horrocks thought of her. Dixon thought of Steph as a supporting character for Tim, but he did give her her own plotlines, like the stuff with her Dad, training with Black Canary, and just before he left the first time, she was training with Batman. She never really felt like Tim's sidekick, or even just like his love interest, but like a character with her own aspirations and arcs. That, to me, is why I like Tim and Steph so much together, both as love interests and as friends. Because she wasn't his sidekick, anymore than Babs was Dick's.

Thats not really better, lol. She came off as a joke when with Cass. Steph was comically dismissed and beat up by Cass. If Cass was ever treated like Steph was when she was next to Cass, Cass fans would go ape ****.

Yeah, pretty much.

Can I just say what an interesting experience it has been for me reading the Batgirls in backwards chronological order ?

I read at least part of Batgirl Year One before I read Steph as Batgirl, and I read a few issues of Cass's run, but the order for me was Babs in Year One, Steph, and Cass, in terms of reading things all the way through.

And all three are so much better than Babs has been since n52, sadly. Not that I want Babs to be a bad Batgirl, but she's just less than she's ever been, and much less than either Steph or Cass.

[Assam]

I was just joking about the Batgirl Stephanie Brown thing.

I know.

See, I think Steph has had some really great stuff as Cass's sidekick, but I do think that's how Puckett and Horrocks thought of her. Dixon thought of Steph as a supporting character for Tim, but he did give her her own plotlines, like the stuff with her Dad, training with Black Canary, and just before he left the first time, she was training with Batman. She never really felt like Tim's sidekick, or even just like his love interest, but like a character with her own aspirations and arcs. That, to me, is why I like Tim and Steph so much together, both as love interests and as friends. Because she wasn't his sidekick, anymore than Babs was Dick's.

A fair perspective. What I meant by what I said was that I've never personally enjoyed her character more than in that role, because her dynamic with Cass is by far the most interesting thing about her character to me. Plus, an issue from that period, #26, is my favorite solo Steph adventure.

[millernumber1]

A fair perspective. What I meant by what I said was that I've never personally enjoyed her character more than in that role, because her dynamic with Cass is by far the most interesting thing about her character to me. Plus, an issue from that period, #26, is my favorite solo Steph adventure.

I'm curious - why would Steph existing mostly to support/further Cass's development be better than the same situation with Tim? I personally view both roles for Steph as stepping stones to her solo career, but there does seem to be a large contingent of fans who seem to think that it's bad for Steph to be a supporting character for Tim but not pretty much the same relationship (creatively, I mean) with Cass?

I do, as you know, adore Batgirl #26. Still really happy I found a copy of it!

[Frontier]

And all three are so much better than Babs has been since n52, sadly. Not that I want Babs to be a bad Batgirl, but she's just less than she's ever been, and much less than either Steph or Cass.

I don't disagree with this at all.

[dominus]

Good parallel counterfactual there. The biggest problem with Steph in a series where Cass is actively functioning in the same general area is that she cannot compete on a sheer combat level, and thus there's going to be a constant pressure to be the same kind of Batgirl, or for people top wish for the better Batgirl.

And that's not what a Steph Batgirl series would need for Steph to become respected as Batgirl. Now, if your position is, as I know it is for many Cass fans, that Steph's natural place in the universe is as Cass's sidekick, then you have little desire to see Steph strike out on her own.

But I do.

Easy fix for that. (Not sure if Assam is on a perma-ban or temp) but I've got a solution that would take their outline and probably give a good outcome for fans of both.

Steph gets her solo series, at the end of a Cass Batgirl 6 issue mini series, where Cass hands over the uniform. Cass feels the calling to go out in the world, but realizes that Gotham needs a Batgirl, so she picks her own replacement. (Whether or not at the behest of Bruce can be left ambiguous.)

Spoiler (at the end of a crime bust): So... team Batgirl?
Batgirl (stripping off her costume and handing it over to Steph): No. Just Batgirl.

[millernumber1]

Easy fix for that. (Not sure if Assam is on a perma-ban or temp) but I've got a solution that would take their outline and probably give a good outcome for fans of both.

Steph gets her solo series, at the end of a Cass Batgirl 6 issue mini series, where Cass hands over the uniform. Cass feels the calling to go out in the world, but realizes that Gotham needs a Batgirl, so she picks her own replacement. (Whether or not at the behest of Bruce can be left ambiguous.)

Spoiler (at the end of a crime bust): So... team Batgirl?
Batgirl (stripping off her costume and handing it over to Steph): No. Just Batgirl.

I think that would work - probably even better if we move the Batgirl: Redemption miniseries to after RIP, have it written by ANYBODY ELSE, and have the handoff be the end of it. Maybe have the adoption be the beginning of it.

I mean, we know that Beechen was against Steph being Batgirl, so it would definitely have to be someone else writing.

[Dataweaver]

No, actually it wouldn't work. A six-month delay is a six-month delay, whether it's six months of Cass taking the lead in Steph's book or six months of Steph's book being delayed to allow the Cass miniseries to play out. Remember, when Batgirl #1 came out, it coincided with both Red Robin #1 and Batman and Robin #1: in that month, Dick became Batman; Damian became Robin; Tim became Red Robin; and Stephanie became Batgirl.

This is where Battle for the Cowl comes in: if you want a miniseries prior to Batgirl #1 in which Cassandra comes to the decision to pass the Batgirl identity on to Stephanie, that miniseries/event would have been the perfect place to do it. It took place at the right time (in the aftermath of Batman RIP and just before Batgirl #1) and its subject matter was highly compatible (in the wake of Bruce's apparent death, who should take on what identity?).

[millernumber1]

No, actually it wouldn't work. A six-month delay is a six-month delay, whether it's six months of Cass taking the lead in Steph's book or six months of Steph's book being delayed to allow the Cass miniseries to play out. Remember, when Batgirl #1 came out, it coincided with both Red Robin #1 and Batman and Robin #1: in that month, Dick became Batman; Damian became Robin; Tim became Red Robin; and Stephanie became Batgirl.

This is where Battle for the Cowl comes in: if you want a miniseries prior to Batgirl #1 in which Cassandra comes to the decision to pass the Batgirl identity on to Stephanie, that miniseries/event would have been the perfect place to do it. It took place at the right time (in the aftermath of Batman RIP and just before Batgirl #1) and its subject matter was highly compatible (in the wake of Bruce's apparent death, who should take on what identity?).

That's why I posited this miniseries replacing Batgirl: Redemption. That gives Cass her due without taking any of Steph's screentime.

Of course, your suggestion of a Battle for the Cowl tie-in filling the same function would also have been pretty solid.

I'm still firmly in the "Cass was shafted, but that doesn't mean we need to shaft Steph to make it right" camp.

[Dataweaver]

And delaying Batgirl: Redemption would have shafted Cass even more — though I agree with your assessment that it should have been written by someone else; Beechen was the one who screwed up Cass in One Year Later (though more due to ignorance and editorial mandate than malice); and too much of Batgirl: Redemption involved patching up continuity errors that we're better off ignored (e.g., devoting any panel time to explaining how Lynx could be killed twice, once during Way Games and again in One Year Later — especially when the explanation was “I had her resurrected so I could kill her again”).

[millernumber1]

And delaying Batgirl: Redemption would have shafted Cass even more — though I agree with your assessment that it should have been written by someone else; Beechen was the one who screwed up Cass in One Year Later (though more due to ignorance and editorial mandate than malice); and too much of Batgirl: Redemption involved patching up continuity errors that we're better off ignored (e.g., devoting any panel time to explaining how Lynx could be killed twice, once during Way Games and again in One Year Later — especially when the explanation was “I had her resurrected so I could kill her again”).

I disagree that delaying it would shaft her more. We already had Cass being heroic in Batman and the Outsiders from at least December 2007, and Batgirl: Redemption came out July-December 2008. Delaying it so it coincided a bit more with RIP/Battle for the Cowl wouldn't have hurt her more if it turned into an actually good series, instead of a really crummy story with kinda sketchy art that has exactly one good panel in all six issues.

My dislike of Beechen is less because he screwed up Cass (since later interviews show he loved Cass as Batgirl, and was very cranky when Steph took over), and more that he's just a really bad writer.

Poor Lynx. That "resurrected to kill her again" is pretty lol-inducing, though.

Fundamentally, though, I think Cass should have had at least a one-shot during Battle for the Cowl, or even a short story in the Gotham Gazette framing issues for Battle for the Cowl. Much as I love seeing Steph in that Chris Cross art, FabNic's story for her was pretty whack, and I wouldn't have minded Cass getting her own solo short story, or even sharing the story with Steph (instead of FabNic's incredibly annoying Tim "YOU CAN'T BE A HERO STEPH"). She did get some cool moments in The Network, I think, but it wasn't nearly enough.

[adrikito]

I miss the happy days in this topic... But in the solicitations I can´t see better days..


Young Justice.. Season 3 won't debut before October 2018.

https://twitter.com/Greg_Weisman/sta...82773961658376


In the WORST CASE, Maybe we will see the season 3 in December, like a Christmas gift...