Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[The Dying Detective]

Well, I take issue with the idea that he hasn't written Tim and Steph in character. I think there are plenty of moments, up to the end of Victim Syndicate, where he wrote Steph in character (allowing for new circumstances). And I think his Tim has always been really solid. I know there's lots of hate for "hacker Tim," but I really don't think that he's done it too much, except maybe Batman and Robin Eternal #1. His Tim in Batman Eternal was wonderful, though a supporting character.

Well in fairness the hacker thing not what people know Tim Drake as and DC did waste everyone's time when they rebooted and gave Tim nearly completely different character. I honestly had no issues with Tim Drake's old New 52 costume it looked better than his Post-Crisis costume. I just douldn't wrap my head around his origin which was a little crazy. Stephanie's reasons for wanting to leave the Gotham Knights is understandable so in some ways I think people were miffed that she briefly turned on Batman after losing Tim I really cannot understand that issue. But after a while though Stephanie's grievances felt a little overstretched.

[millernumber1]

Well in fairness the hacker thing not what people know Tim Drake as and DC did waste everyone's time when they rebooted and gave Tim nearly completely different character. I honestly had no issues with Tim Drake's old New 52 costume it looked better than his Post-Crisis costume. I just douldn't wrap my head around his origin which was a little crazy. Stephanie's reasons for wanting to leave the Gotham Knights is understandable so in some ways I think people were miffed that she briefly turned on Batman after losing Tim I really cannot understand that issue. But after a while though Stephanie's grievances felt a little overstretched.

I think people who criticize the hacker thing really haven't paid enough attention to how much hacking (and other goofy plot things) Tim did in his original incarnation. I've never really minded the new origin as much as other fans, but I do really like that Tynion put back large chunks of the old origin.

I'm so glad someone besides me thinks Steph has understandable reasons! But I agree with you - at this point, Steph's conflict with Batman has gone on way too long without any change, and it's keeping her out of the book and unpopular with the fans, and I think it's gone sour, even though it started completely reasonably.

[The Dying Detective]

I think people who criticize the hacker thing really haven't paid enough attention to how much hacking (and other goofy plot things) Tim did in his original incarnation. I've never really minded the new origin as much as other fans, but I do really like that Tynion put back large chunks of the old origin.

I'm so glad someone besides me thinks Steph has understandable reasons! But I agree with you - at this point, Steph's conflict with Batman has gone on way too long without any change, and it's keeping her out of the book and unpopular with the fans, and I think it's gone sour, even though it started completely reasonably.

Some say though that even though Tim did do a lot of hacking in the past he's never relied on it that much whihc could be valid to a degree. Well I appreciate Tynion outting back the old origin because the new one was little convoluted to accept. Well I'm glad you do think that too admittedly though I did go along witt fans mentality about Stephanie mostly to gain attention but it is something I am ashamed of. I also think the reason has more to do with how people blindly worship Batman a lot. Still yeah it was unfortunate that Tim's return could not have come earlier and it was tied to Oz Effect then readers could have seen a much quicker resolution to Stephanie's conflict though Tynion had way too much on his plate to properly fix her issues with Batman.

[millernumber1]

Some say though that even though Tim did do a lot of hacking in the past he's never relied on it that much whihc could be valid to a degree. Well I appreciate Tynion outting back the old origin because the new one was little convoluted to accept. Well I'm glad you do think that too admittedly though I did go along witt fans mentality about Stephanie mostly to gain attention but it is something I am ashamed of. I also think the reason has more to do with how people blindly worship Batman a lot. Still yeah it was unfortunate that Tim's return could not have come earlier and it was tied to Oz Effect then readers could have seen a much quicker resolution to Stephanie's conflict though Tynion had way too much on his plate to properly fix her issues with Batman.

There is a lot of pushback on Tec because Tynion "hates Batman" - which is to say, Tynion is writing Bruce as a supporting character, who makes mistakes and fails. But I think he's had a lot of wins - they just don't like that he's not The Main Show And Never Questioned.

I still have hope, depending on whether Tynion gets to stay on Tec till 1000 or not. If he does, or he gets to spin off a Gotham Knights title, I think he'll fix her. But if he doesn't, and someone takes Tec and completely ignores Steph...

It'll be a dark time. Again.

[The Dying Detective]

There is a lot of pushback on Tec because Tynion "hates Batman" - which is to say, Tynion is writing Bruce as a supporting character, who makes mistakes and fails. But I think he's had a lot of wins - they just don't like that he's not The Main Show And Never Questioned.

I still have hope, depending on whether Tynion gets to stay on Tec till 1000 or not. If he does, or he gets to spin off a Gotham Knights title, I think he'll fix her. But if he doesn't, and someone takes Tec and completely ignores Steph...

It'll be a dark time. Again.

I don't know why these fans should be complaining about Batman mostly being left out of the action Detective Comics once it began exclusively featuring Batman the comic should have been rebranded as Batman instead. It's pretty much more proper now since the Batfamily are getting more of the spotlight on it. Also it's been something of bad trend to portray Batman as infallible which also repulses readers so what are people complaining about? After how bad he did her you really think Tynion can fix Stephanie Brown?

[millernumber1]

I don't know why these fans should be complaining about Batman mostly being left out of the action Detective Comics once it began exclusively featuring Batman the comic should have been rebranded as Batman instead. It's pretty much more proper now since the Batfamily are getting more of the spotlight on it. Also it's been something of bad trend to portray Batman as infallible which also repulses readers so what are people complaining about? After how bad he did her you really think Tynion can fix Stephanie Brown?

Eh. There's plenty of people who think Batman should never be seriously challenged by his allies. Thus the popularity of Loeb and Morrison and Snyder.

Then there's those who think that Batman should be challenged on his "no-killing" stance, as seen in the most recent Tec thread.

I do think that while Tynion had a logical and emotionally effective start to Steph's current arc of being opposed to Batman's methods, he has put her on the "wrong" side for the reader. After all, she's basically arguing that Batman shouldn't exist, and we're all Batman comic book readers and fans. While I am still a fan of hers, I do think that there's an unease created when you have a heroic character argue against the entire premise of the franchise that you're reading - like a romantic comedy saying that humor and love stories are bad, or a drama saying that conflict should be avoided. A Batman character saying that Batman shouldn't exist - yeah, it's kind of like having a "stop having fun" character.

I had hope that Steph would come to a realization - the whole issue where she fights Wrath, and the first issue of Utopia/Distopia had her starting to realize her hypocrisy and starting to heal from the wound of Tim's death. But having Tim lie to her and go basically crazy trying to become Bat-Tim (to avoid becoming Bat-Tim...you know, I honestly see why Steph left. I hate it, but Tim was being incredibly unhealthy) meant that her real philosophical issues with Batman (not to mention her fundamental distrust of Batman based on her childhood in Batman Eternal #10) have NEVER been dealt with.

We NEED an issue where Steph and Bruce have a heart to heart - maybe a team up, but some kind of encounter where they both are able to say the truth to each other, and Steph can realize that she wants the same things Bruce does, and that he really is a hero and she can work with him and not against him. I think Tynion can absolutely write that issue.

I don't know if he'll get that chance.

[The Dying Detective]

Eh. There's plenty of people who think Batman should never be seriously challenged by his allies. Thus the popularity of Loeb and Morrison and Snyder.

Then there's those who think that Batman should be challenged on his "no-killing" stance, as seen in the most recent Tec thread.

I do think that while Tynion had a logical and emotionally effective start to Steph's current arc of being opposed to Batman's methods, he has put her on the "wrong" side for the reader. After all, she's basically arguing that Batman shouldn't exist, and we're all Batman comic book readers and fans. While I am still a fan of hers, I do think that there's an unease created when you have a heroic character argue against the entire premise of the franchise that you're reading - like a romantic comedy saying that humor and love stories are bad, or a drama saying that conflict should be avoided. A Batman character saying that Batman shouldn't exist - yeah, it's kind of like having a "stop having fun" character.

I had hope that Steph would come to a realization - the whole issue where she fights Wrath, and the first issue of Utopia/Distopia had her starting to realize her hypocrisy and starting to heal from the wound of Tim's death. But having Tim lie to her and go basically crazy trying to become Bat-Tim (to avoid becoming Bat-Tim...you know, I honestly see why Steph left. I hate it, but Tim was being incredibly unhealthy) meant that her real philosophical issues with Batman (not to mention her fundamental distrust of Batman based on her childhood in Batman Eternal #10) have NEVER been dealt with.

We NEED an issue where Steph and Bruce have a heart to heart - maybe a team up, but some kind of encounter where they both are able to say the truth to each other, and Steph can realize that she wants the same things Bruce does, and that he really is a hero and she can work with him and not against him. I think Tynion can absolutely write that issue.

I don't know if he'll get that chance.

In some ways that's what characters like Huntress and the Red Hood should be doing challenging his ways and ideals it would restore balance to the stories involving Batman. I was often pretty interested in those type of characters who bring balance to the narrative. In a way I see why fans have turned against Stephanie for saying Batman shouldn't exist when in a sense she is doing everything Batman is doing especially when she took out Wrath. Still with how Stephanie has now left the team it would be impossible for her issues to ever be addressed. Then again she does disappear on and off so she might be back and Tynion can right her. But why so worried is Tynion going to be taken off Detective Comics or something?

[millernumber1]

In some ways that's what characters like Huntress and the Red Hood should be doing challenging his ways and ideals it would restore balance to the stories involving Batman. I was often pretty interested in those type of characters who bring balance to the narrative. In a way I see why fans have turned against Stephanie for saying Batman shouldn't exist when in a sense she is doing everything Batman is doing especially when she took out Wrath. Still with how Stephanie has now left the team it would be impossible for her issues to ever be addressed. Then again she does disappear on and off so she might be back and Tynion can right her. But why so worried is Tynion going to be taken off Detective Comics or something?

Excellent points. I really wish Huntress was interacting with Batman more these days. I think Steph has good points - but I don't think that her hypocrisy helps fans like her more (except for me ), and there's a serious problem with Steph, who in Dixon and BQM's hands has always had a really strong element of loving fun and enjoying being a hero, becomes the "stop having fun" girl.

There have been two significant rumors that Tynion is leaving Tec, and he's doing way too many series right now - Tec, The Immortal Men, all the Metal tie-ins, and the NOPE JUSTICE stuff. Going by sales, he's pretty solid, and going by what he's said in the past, he wants to stay for another year to get to 1000. However, Gleason wanted to stay with Tomasi for 100 issues, and he is getting shifted to Action without Tomasi after only 40. So clearly sales/editorial has their own plans. So the two rumors are really making me anxious (plus the fact that this last story arc, while having some incredibly strong issues, like 973, also has some really weak issues, like 974, and Steph's plot is clearly not working the way Tynion wants it to work, or he wouldn't be writing whiplash decisions for her).

Again, if Tynion gets a Gotham Knights title and Steph is part of it, I have no worries whatsoever. But if Steph is written off of Tec, and no one picks her up? I'm going to have some serious problems.

[Blight]

If anyone's been following the Cassandra thread, probably knows of Monolith doing a Batman board game called the Gotham City Chronicles where you can play various scenarios with the numerous heroes/villains of Gotham. Cass (as Orphan) was confirmed a week ago, but the box art for the game (drawn by David Finch) kind of also reveals Stephanie WILL be in the game too (so far only as Spoiler). It's possible she could also appear as Batgirl since the board game has revealed variant figures for Tim (Red Robin/Robin), Barbara (Batgirl/Oracle), Bruce, Selina (current/Long Halloween), and the Joker (Death of the Family/regular) so far).

27993129_1348795038558809_5423527371537524847_o.jpg

But sadly no Cass on the box art.

[millernumber1]

If anyone's been following the Cassandra thread, probably knows of Monolith doing a Batman board game called the Gotham City Chronicles where you can play various scenarios with the numerous heroes/villains of Gotham. Cass (as Orphan) was confirmed a week ago, but the box art for the game (drawn by David Finch) kind of also reveals Stephanie WILL be in the game too (so far only as Spoiler). It's possible she could also appear as Batgirl since the board game has revealed variant figures for Tim (Red Robin/Robin), Barbara (Batgirl/Oracle), Bruce, Selina (current/Long Halloween), and the Joker (Death of the Family/regular) so far).

27993129_1348795038558809_5423527371537524847_o.jpg

But sadly no Cass on the box art.

That's very exciting news! Here's a link to the full size image. I'm a bit confused as to the "official" status of this game, though - it's Kickstarting, but it's officially DC/WB product with official Batman artists on it?

https://twitter.com/Monolithedition/...25837274468354

[millernumber1]

With all the doom and gloom I'm feeling about Steph being written out of Tec, I thought this was a really nice, sweet fan interpretation of a moment from two issues ago:

http://silver-peel.tumblr.com/post/1...73-when-b-told

a.jpg

[The Dying Detective]

Excellent points. I really wish Huntress was interacting with Batman more these days. I think Steph has good points - but I don't think that her hypocrisy helps fans like her more (except for me ), and there's a serious problem with Steph, who in Dixon and BQM's hands has always had a really strong element of loving fun and enjoying being a hero, becomes the "stop having fun" girl.

There have been two significant rumors that Tynion is leaving Tec, and he's doing way too many series right now - Tec, The Immortal Men, all the Metal tie-ins, and the NOPE JUSTICE stuff. Going by sales, he's pretty solid, and going by what he's said in the past, he wants to stay for another year to get to 1000. However, Gleason wanted to stay with Tomasi for 100 issues, and he is getting shifted to Action without Tomasi after only 40. So clearly sales/editorial has their own plans. So the two rumors are really making me anxious (plus the fact that this last story arc, while having some incredibly strong issues, like 973, also has some really weak issues, like 974, and Steph's plot is clearly not working the way Tynion wants it to work, or he wouldn't be writing whiplash decisions for her).

Again, if Tynion gets a Gotham Knights title and Steph is part of it, I have no worries whatsoever. But if Steph is written off of Tec, and no one picks her up? I'm going to have some serious problems.

Huntress was always more of Bird of Prey character so don't expect anything like that. Yeah Stephanie is just undermining her own point and I find it so odd that no one was calling her out on her hypocrisy. If only Tim's return wasn't tied to Oz Effect then fixing her could have been a lot faster. Still you'd think after helping the Victim Syndicate Stephanie would feel guilty and stick around to make amends. That is a lot to consider but it's a waste of time to worry about well anything if there's no confirmation at all really. Might as well wait and see what develops. I'd rather keep Detective Comics as it is but thena gain Action Comics should have also been rebranded as Superman when they began exclusively focusing on him.

[millernumber1]

Huntress was always more of Bird of Prey character so don't expect anything like that. Yeah Stephanie is just undermining her own point and I find it so odd that no one was calling her out on her hypocrisy. If only Tim's return wasn't tied to Oz Effect then fixing her could have been a lot faster. Still you'd think after helping the Victim Syndicate Stephanie would feel guilty and stick around to make amends. That is a lot to consider but it's a waste of time to worry about well anything if there's no confirmation at all really. Might as well wait and see what develops. I'd rather keep Detective Comics as it is but thena gain Action Comics should have also been rebranded as Superman when they began exclusively focusing on him.

That's not really accurate. Huntress is a 1989 character (at least the Bertinelli version), and has existed outside of the Birds of Prey for much longer than she's been part of it (she was part of it from 2003-2008, 2010-2011, and 2016-2018). I would agree that her best incarnation is with the Birds of Prey, but she's much more a Batman character (all of the 90s) than a Bird. I think that because Huntress is basically the "property" of two teams these days - the Birds of Prey team, and Tim Seeley (who co-created the new version of Helena Bertinelli with Tom King in Grayson, and who is basically just putting Helena in every series he is writing - I'm just waiting for the Green Lanterns story with Helena... ) she's not being used in the Batfamily as much. But if you look at the 90s, she was a huge presence in Batman comics - Batman Chronicles, Detective Comics, Robin. She's a massive part of No Man's Land, and a big part of Hush. I'm hoping that they'll give Seeley a Bat-title again (actually, I wouldn't mind him taking over Tec, because he likes to use Steph too), so Huntress can return to Gotham again.

I think Steph did start recognizing her hypocrisy in Utopia/Distopia - Tynion just hasn't followed up on it at all.

The Oz Effect definitely showed the hampering of Tynion's story - he wanted to start bringing Tim back with The Button and League of Shadows/Intelligence, which you can see from the cover of the last issue of The Button, and the fact that originally, the end of League of Shadows would have referenced The Button and how Batman learned that Tim is alive, instead of having that happen six issues later in the last issue of Intelligence. That would also have allowed Tynion to get Steph back on the team before her hating superheros had become quite as entrenched.

All eyes are on Monday and the May solicits...

[The Dying Detective]

That's not really accurate. Huntress is a 1989 character (at least the Bertinelli version), and has existed outside of the Birds of Prey for much longer than she's been part of it (she was part of it from 2003-2008, 2010-2011, and 2016-2018). I would agree that her best incarnation is with the Birds of Prey, but she's much more a Batman character (all of the 90s) than a Bird. I think that because Huntress is basically the "property" of two teams these days - the Birds of Prey team, and Tim Seeley (who co-created the new version of Helena Bertinelli with Tom King in Grayson, and who is basically just putting Helena in every series he is writing - I'm just waiting for the Green Lanterns story with Helena... ) she's not being used in the Batfamily as much. But if you look at the 90s, she was a huge presence in Batman comics - Batman Chronicles, Detective Comics, Robin. She's a massive part of No Man's Land, and a big part of Hush. I'm hoping that they'll give Seeley a Bat-title again (actually, I wouldn't mind him taking over Tec, because he likes to use Steph too), so Huntress can return to Gotham again.

I think Steph did start recognizing her hypocrisy in Utopia/Distopia - Tynion just hasn't followed up on it at all.

The Oz Effect definitely showed the hampering of Tynion's story - he wanted to start bringing Tim back with The Button and League of Shadows/Intelligence, which you can see from the cover of the last issue of The Button, and the fact that originally, the end of League of Shadows would have referenced The Button and how Batman learned that Tim is alive, instead of having that happen six issues later in the last issue of Intelligence. That would also have allowed Tynion to get Steph back on the team before her hating superheros had become quite as entrenched.

All eyes are on Monday and the May solicits...

Huh I did not know that still what's interesting is how the New 52 Helena Bertinelli has dark skin but retains her Italian heritage is that odd? One guy I know ranted on his blog about Helena's skin change and he wasn't happy and accused DC of race lifting. She's going to appear in Green Lanterns? Maybe she can help give Jessica tips on dating Dick or just tell her to stay away from him. I admit as much those who love Stephanie and Tim being together how well done was it when throughout the New 52 they barely interacted? It feels kind of forced because it didn't have the same build up they had in Post-Crisis. And as busy as Tynion maybe it's kind of odd that instead of following up on Stephanie realising that she is being a hypocrite after the destruction of Gotham. I can't believe Tynion was forced to stretch it out though. What's happening in May will indeed make or break Detective Comics just hope whatever he's been doing for Metal, the New Age of DC Superheroes, and No Justice is done by now.

[millernumber1]

Huh I did not know that still what's interesting is how the New 52 Helena Bertinelli has dark skin but retains her Italian heritage is that odd? One guy I know ranted on his blog about Helena's skin change and he wasn't happy and accused DC of race lifting. She's going to appear in Green Lanterns? Maybe she can help give Jessica tips on dating Dick or just tell her to stay away from him. I admit as much those who love Stephanie and Tim being together how well done was it when throughout the New 52 they barely interacted? It feels kind of forced because it didn't have the same build up they had in Post-Crisis. And as busy as Tynion maybe it's kind of odd that instead of following up on Stephanie realising that she is being a hypocrite after the destruction of Gotham. I can't believe Tynion was forced to stretch it out though. What's happening in May will indeed make or break Detective Comics just hope whatever he's been doing for Metal, the New Age of DC Superheroes, and No Justice is done by now.

I mean, I don't want to get too far into my OTHER favorite purple-clad Gotham vigilante (she has her own appreciation thread here that needs love! http://community.comicbookresources....s-Appreciation). But short version: yes, she's the same character. Like Steph and Cass, she was erased in the n52, but it was much, much more offensive, because they wrote a Huntress miniseries teasing fans that she was still alive, but then it turned out it was Earth 2 Helena Wayne. (I'm still mad.) Then Tim Seeley introduced her at the end of Nightwing/beginning of Grayson as the head of Spyral's academy for girl assassins, and after he left Grayson, he brought her into Nightwing for an arc. He's also bringing her into Hellblazer for an arc (I'm probably going to buy that as well, since Seeley writes a pretty great Helena, I think.) I have no confirmation on whether Seeley's going to use her in Green Lanterns - I'm just making a joke based on his previous work.

After Batman Eternal, when Steph and Tim flirted in the very last issue, I was really bummed that not even Batman and Robin Eternal really did anything with that relationship. I'm really glad Tynion decided to put them back together, but I wish he'd done it in Batman and Robin Eternal - have them get closer in that series - instead of just surprising us in the second issue of Tec.

I'm still really unsure of why they changed The Button. That whole miniseries was so pointless without the reveal that Tim was alive.