Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[adrikito]

Incomplete image of Steph in 2018 wondercon:

Screen Shot 243.jpg

We are almost in the 200th page.

[The Dying Detective]

Incomplete image of Steph in 2018 wondercon:

Screen Shot 243.jpg

We are almost in the 200th page.

So people still do remember the old Red Robin suit. Maybe DC should use it again minus the Doctor Mid-Nite cowl.

[adrikito]

So people still do remember the old Red Robin suit. Maybe DC should use it again minus the Doctor Mid-Nite cowl.

I am not Tim fan and I like this costume.. Better than his N52 Costume..

[The Dying Detective]

I am not Tim fan and I like this costume.. Better than his N52 Costume..

I liked the New 52 costume because it didn't have that ridiculous cowl. The rest of the old one is okay it's cowl that's the problem.

[millernumber1]

Really? Well that's a shame still with all those hints out there that the real Conner and Bart are out there somewhere DC would be foolish to not relaunch Young Justice especially with their cartoon coming out and with a tie-in comic it means they'll be earning even more money.

I was referring to the old DC Legends event comic where Darkseid send Glorious Godfrey to turn the world against the superheroes. Cosmic stories are not for me usually though Green Lanterns is interesting.

Okay that does make sense but writing the Justice League backup issues he may or may not want another project to keep his wallet full though. Well if you haven't heard of it already I read that Stephanie is going to be Dick's apprentice in the cartoon.

Well, I think so. But what I think is almost always the opposite of what DC does.

Ah, I've never heard of that DC Legends event. I've been reading Green Lanterns, because I like Seeley, but I'm about to drop it, because I just don't care about the whole concept. The characters are nice, but it's just not holding me.

I have heard that Steph is connected to Dick, which I think would be cool. I'm not usually a big fan of Dick, but Dick in Young Justice is a really fun character. Probably because I saw him as a kid, then grown up.

Incomplete image of Steph in 2018 wondercon:

Screen Shot 243.jpg

We are almost in the 200th page.

Awesome pic, and we shall make it to 200 this week! Hooray!

So people still do remember the old Red Robin suit. Maybe DC should use it again minus the Doctor Mid-Nite cowl.

I liked the old Red Robin costume, but I do think it pushes Tim visually too much towards the mini-Batman characterization.

I am not Tim fan and I like this costume.. Better than his N52 Costume..

I really like Tim. But the n52 costume annoyed me. Mostly the wings. The rest was fine.

The wings, actually, are a perfect symbol for why I don't like the Batfamily existing in the wider superhero world. Their tech has to be pushed so far that it's really implausible when they come back to Gotham.

[The Dying Detective]

Well, I think so. But what I think is almost always the opposite of what DC does.

Ah, I've never heard of that DC Legends event. I've been reading Green Lanterns, because I like Seeley, but I'm about to drop it, because I just don't care about the whole concept. The characters are nice, but it's just not holding me.

I have heard that Steph is connected to Dick, which I think would be cool. I'm not usually a big fan of Dick, but Dick in Young Justice is a really fun character. Probably because I saw him as a kid, then grown up.

I liked the old Red Robin costume, but I do think it pushes Tim visually too much towards the mini-Batman characterization.

I think that applies to almost every comic company in general otherwise Marvel wouldn't have replaced all their flagship characters which squandered the good will the movies brought. So now they're going to bring them back which is taking forever.

Well I'm going to continue reading Green lanterns but I preferred it when it was written by Humphries. He had a better grasp of Simon and Jessica though Seeley has improved on his characterisations a little. I found Dick in Young Justice a little annoying because of the words he made up they sound dumb the only character I found who could use whelmed and not annoy me was Conner. I liked him better as Nightwing though.

Well I believe Bruce did say Tim would make a better Batman than him even though Damian is supposed to be a mini-Batman. I think if Red Robin was still written by Yost it wouldn't have gone that way admittedly even though I didn't like the push into Tim becoming Batman-lite I found it more bearable than X-23 becoming Wolverine.

[Assam]

I think that applies to almost every comic company in general otherwise Marvel wouldn't have replaced all their flagship characters which squandered the good will the movies brought. So now they're going to bring them back which is taking forever.

And in the process squandering all the good will they've built up from all of us who've come to love Marvel over the last few years because of their fantastic legacy characters. If not for Runaways, I'd seriously consider dropping everything I'm reading from them so as to not support the initiative, but between the cancellations of Falcon and All-New Wolverine, it looks like Marvel doesn't want me reading their books anyway.

I eagerly await seeing sales rise high for two or three months before they plummet lower than ever now that they've alienated all their new readers in exchange for the same handful of old schoolers. "Bring back the Fantastic Four" everyone cried? I give em a year before they're below 30,000, at best. "Bring back Bruce Banner as Hulk!"? A year before he's in cancellation territory.

Gonna be fun.

[The Dying Detective]

And in the process squandering all the good will they've built up from all of us who've come to love Marvel over the last few years because of their fantastic legacy characters. If not for Runaways, I'd seriously consider dropping everything I'm reading from them so as to not support the initiative, but between the cancellations of Falcon and All-New Wolverine, it looks like Marvel doesn't want me reading their books anyway.

I eagerly await seeing sales rise high for two or three months before they plummet lower than ever now that they've alienated all their new readers in exchange for the same handful of old schoolers. "Bring back the Fantastic Four" everyone cried? I give em a year before they're below 30,000, at best. "Bring back Bruce Banner as Hulk!"? A year before he's in cancellation territory.

Gonna be fun.

Well that's the other definition of insanity chasing whatever you think is worth the while until you don't know where to even look. Please if Marvel really cared they would have brought back the marriage of Mary Jane and Peter Parker to try and win back more old school fans. Well the insanity of the comic book industry is sometimes more entertaining than their comics will ever be sometimes.

[millernumber1]

I think that applies to almost every comic company in general otherwise Marvel wouldn't have replaced all their flagship characters which squandered the good will the movies brought. So now they're going to bring them back which is taking forever.

Well I'm going to continue reading Green lanterns but I preferred it when it was written by Humphries. He had a better grasp of Simon and Jessica though Seeley has improved on his characterisations a little. I found Dick in Young Justice a little annoying because of the words he made up they sound dumb the only character I found who could use whelmed and not annoy me was Conner. I liked him better as Nightwing though.

Well I believe Bruce did say Tim would make a better Batman than him even though Damian is supposed to be a mini-Batman. I think if Red Robin was still written by Yost it wouldn't have gone that way admittedly even though I didn't like the push into Tim becoming Batman-lite I found it more bearable than X-23 becoming Wolverine.

Good will from movies doesn't really translate to comics sales (which supports Assam's point, even though I don't completely agree with it), as we see from the sales of Wonder Woman not being affected in a noticeable way last year from the Wonder Woman movie, even though it was an origin story and Wonder Woman was recognizably similar to her movie counterpart. Now, trade sales may have gone up - but since BookScan doesn't release numbers like Comichron does, we don't know that information. But it could be one of the reasons why DC is focusing so heavily on the book market.

Really? I thought Dick's linguistic acrobatics were a fun character trait. They showed that he was smart, but not super book smart like Tim, but wanted to improve his vocabulary.

Who would make a better Batman always depends on who is writing at the time. I just ignore those types of things except as they're important for the story at the time. I'm personally a fan of Dick becoming Batman (mostly because of Black Mirror and Gates of Gotham), but I have also enjoyed both fan and pro fictions about Tim and Cass being "The Batt" (by Damion Scott), or Damian becoming Batman (in a fic inspired by Morrison's Batman 666).

I don't want to go too far off of Steph, but here's where I agree with Assam again (even though I generally don't like how Marvel has handled themselves in the past 10 years, including that past 4). I'm not a Wolverine fan generally, so that's probably part of this, but I liked the idea of Laura becoming Wolverine. It felt very much like Dick Grayson becoming Batman. The series has been uneven, but I've enjoyed several of the arcs in the middle (though recently I haven't enjoyed it at all).

Now, Steph taking over Nightwing is something I think needs to happen. Never going to happen, because DC won't let characters age that far, but I would like it to be in one of those alternate futures.

[millernumber1]

Well that's the other definition of insanity chasing whatever you think is worth the while until you don't know where to even look. Please if Marvel really cared they would have brought back the marriage of Mary Jane and Peter Parker to try and win back more old school fans. Well the insanity of the comic book industry is sometimes more entertaining than their comics will ever be sometimes.

Yeah. Instead we get Dan Slott doubling down on his spitting on the "Jackpot" panel at the end of Superior Spider-Man, showing MJ to be much lesser than she used to be.

ANYWAY, speaking of things that we would like to see brought back for old-school fans...what do we all really think is going to happen with Cass and Steph seeing their alternate histories as Batgirl? Will Steph's time as Robin also be remembered? How does it affect the ending of Tynion's run?

[The Dying Detective]

Good will from movies doesn't really translate to comics sales (which supports Assam's point, even though I don't completely agree with it), as we see from the sales of Wonder Woman not being affected in a noticeable way last year from the Wonder Woman movie, even though it was an origin story and Wonder Woman was recognizably similar to her movie counterpart. Now, trade sales may have gone up - but since BookScan doesn't release numbers like Comichron does, we don't know that information. But it could be one of the reasons why DC is focusing so heavily on the book market.

Really? I thought Dick's linguistic acrobatics were a fun character trait. They showed that he was smart, but not super book smart like Tim, but wanted to improve his vocabulary.

Who would make a better Batman always depends on who is writing at the time. I just ignore those types of things except as they're important for the story at the time. I'm personally a fan of Dick becoming Batman (mostly because of Black Mirror and Gates of Gotham), but I have also enjoyed both fan and pro fictions about Tim and Cass being "The Batt" (by Damion Scott), or Damian becoming Batman (in a fic inspired by Morrison's Batman 666).

I don't want to go too far off of Steph, but here's where I agree with Assam again (even though I generally don't like how Marvel has handled themselves in the past 10 years, including that past 4). I'm not a Wolverine fan generally, so that's probably part of this, but I liked the idea of Laura becoming Wolverine. It felt very much like Dick Grayson becoming Batman. The series has been uneven, but I've enjoyed several of the arcs in the middle (though recently I haven't enjoyed it at all).

Now, Steph taking over Nightwing is something I think needs to happen. Never going to happen, because DC won't let characters age that far, but I would like it to be in one of those alternate futures.

Yeah. Instead we get Dan Slott doubling down on his spitting on the "Jackpot" panel at the end of Superior Spider-Man, showing MJ to be much lesser than she used to be.

ANYWAY, speaking of things that we would like to see brought back for old-school fans...what do we all really think is going to happen with Cass and Steph seeing their alternate histories as Batgirl? Will Steph's time as Robin also be remembered? How does it affect the ending of Tynion's run?

Yeah other wise all the animated and live action shows would have contributed to sales. DC's strategy is similar to the old one Marvel had with their MAX imprint and Mangaverse but i wonder whether why they got discontinued not as effective as Marvel thought I suppose. If this fails as well I suppose it's about time DC and Marvel convert themselves into animation and live action studios since that's where the money seems to be.

I guess I didn't find Dick's linguistic acrobatics a good fit for the show's generally serious tone there were humour here and there but it felt more fitting.

That is true as shown by Tynion's depictions of Dick, Jason, and Damian either leaving or outright going overboard. In someways though Dick does work well as Batman because he doesn't rely too much on threatening people in contrast to Bruce who did.

Oh I was interested in the idea of Laura becoming Wolverine until the book got rather directionless and the new direction it took didn't have the right amount of suspense and danger to at least keep things interesting.

If only DC would talk to Bryan Q. Miller the architect of Stephanie becoming Nightwing to work on a Ink or Black Label story where Stephanie is Nightwing.

Slott at least delivered Renew Your Vows the most positive portrayal of Peter and Mary Jane in years already. Cass and Stephanie seeing their lives as Batgirl could set them particularly Stephanie straight and remind her how much she loved being a superheroine or it could just remind fans of what could have been. If Tynion doesn't execute it right.

[millernumber1]

Yeah other wise all the animated and live action shows would have contributed to sales. DC's strategy is similar to the old one Marvel had with their MAX imprint and Mangaverse but i wonder whether why they got discontinued not as effective as Marvel thought I suppose. If this fails as well I suppose it's about time DC and Marvel convert themselves into animation and live action studios since that's where the money seems to be.

I guess I didn't find Dick's linguistic acrobatics a good fit for the show's generally serious tone there were humour here and there but it felt more fitting.

That is true as shown by Tynion's depictions of Dick, Jason, and Damian either leaving or outright going overboard. In someways though Dick does work well as Batman because he doesn't rely too much on threatening people in contrast to Bruce who did.

Oh I was interested in the idea of Laura becoming Wolverine until the book got rather directionless and the new direction it took didn't have the right amount of suspense and danger to at least keep things interesting.

If only DC would talk to Bryan Q. Miller the architect of Stephanie becoming Nightwing to work on a Ink or Black Label story where Stephanie is Nightwing.

Slott at least delivered Renew Your Vows the most positive portrayal of Peter and Mary Jane in years already. Cass and Stephanie seeing their lives as Batgirl could set them particularly Stephanie straight and remind her how much she loved being a superheroine or it could just remind fans of what could have been. If Tynion doesn't execute it right.

Except that Marvel's Max was just R-rated comics released in regular comic form, with the same ongoing continuity types (though some are in AUs, they aren't the kinds of beginning-middle-end books that Black Label is shooting for). You can bet that anything that was discontinued was done so because they couldn't get enough money from it.

I like the idea of Dick as Batman because it's all about growing up - it's a different story, but still an awesome arc and motivation for the character. Plus you have all the cool relationships he has, like with babs as Oracle in Black Mirror, or with Tim, Cass, and Damian in Gates of Gotham. Or with Steph, Babs, and Damian in the second half of Batgirl Rising.

Ah - so your attitude towards Laura as Wolverine seems to be similar to mine. You like the concept and the book was fun, but lately it's gotten less fun. I can agree with that.

DC should get BQM again, but I don't think they have the money to compete with TV shows. But I would love to see a Black Label story by BQM as Nightwing (I think we pitched something like that when Black Label was announced here in the thread).

I prefer Gerry Conway and Ryan Stegman's Renew Your Vows to Slott's. Though Houser is doing okay work, I HATE Stockman's art. I hope the new artist they have announced is going to replace them.

I do hope that Steph seeing her past could at least get her out of the funk and attitude that's turning so many fans off.

[The Dying Detective]

Except that Marvel's Max was just R-rated comics released in regular comic form, with the same ongoing continuity types (though some are in AUs, they aren't the kinds of beginning-middle-end books that Black Label is shooting for). You can bet that anything that was discontinued was done so because they couldn't get enough money from it.

I like the idea of Dick as Batman because it's all about growing up - it's a different story, but still an awesome arc and motivation for the character. Plus you have all the cool relationships he has, like with Babs as Oracle in Black Mirror, or with Tim, Cass, and Damian in Gates of Gotham. Or with Steph, Babs, and Damian in the second half of Batgirl Rising.

Ah - so your attitude towards Laura as Wolverine seems to be similar to mine. You like the concept and the book was fun, but lately it's gotten less fun. I can agree with that.

DC should get BQM again, but I don't think they have the money to compete with TV shows. But I would love to see a Black Label story by BQM as Nightwing (I think we pitched something like that when Black Label was announced here in the thread).

I prefer Gerry Conway and Ryan Stegman's Renew Your Vows to Slott's. Though Houser is doing okay work, I HATE Stockman's art. I hope the new artist they have announced is going to replace them.

I do hope that Steph seeing her past could at least get her out of the funk and attitude that's turning so many fans off.

How did publishing their comics regular comic book format caused the MAX imprint to fail?

I'm actually okay with the idea of Dick staying as Batman it was the only way he could actually join the Justice League and he was the better Batman though it was never going to last as much some would have wanted it to. It could have gone the way thing went with the Flash franchise as Wally West I could not hold it up himself so DC had to bring back Barry.

Pretty much yeah nothing sang for me after a while it's evident that Laura doesn't have much meat on her character take away all her problems and coming up with something new for her is going to be very difficult. To keep an ongoing series to continue to run you need incredible foresight.

Maybe if they offer Bryan Q. Miller an exclusivity contract it should help many of these old guard writers are not too thrilled with being work for hire models and given one of those would show at least they are willing to make amends with him.

Conway and Stegman did okay at least it wasn't the 90's sitcom style of writing Houser went with in her run. I liked Slott's one because it showed Peter Parker and Mary Jane who finally grew up the new writers carried that spirit on to varying degrees of success but Conway was the better one.

Well if Stephanie does see her past life as Batgirl it should be what prompts her to rethink her current choices i think it could either prompt her to go back to Batman and Tim or make her eave as she re-evaluates her choices.

[millernumber1]

How did publishing their comics regular comic book format caused the MAX imprint to fail?

I'm actually okay with the idea of Dick staying as Batman it was the only way he could actually join the Justice League and he was the better Batman though it was never going to last as much some would have wanted it to. It could have gone the way thing went with the Flash franchise as Wally West I could not hold it up himself so DC had to bring back Barry.

Pretty much yeah nothing sang for me after a while it's evident that Laura doesn't have much meat on her character take away all her problems and coming up with something new for her is going to be very difficult. To keep an ongoing series to continue to run you need incredible foresight.

Maybe if they offer Bryan Q. Miller an exclusivity contract it should help many of these old guard writers are not too thrilled with being work for hire models and given one of those would show at least they are willing to make amends with him.

Conway and Stegman did okay at least it wasn't the 90's sitcom style of writing Houser went with in her run. I liked Slott's one because it showed Peter Parker and Mary Jane who finally grew up the new writers carried that spirit on to varying degrees of success but Conway was the better one.

Well if Stephanie does see her past life as Batgirl it should be what prompts her to rethink her current choices i think it could either prompt her to go back to Batman and Tim or make her eave as she re-evaluates her choices.

I don't think publishing in regular floppy format was what CAUSED it to fail, but I do think it chokes off access to a lot of people. Also, the regular ongoing title format means that the endings are less satisfying, which cuts off audiences who want a standalone story. So it was just not as successful as titles aimed directly at the "normal" mainstream comics readers.

I dunno if I'd say Dick is a BETTER Batman, but I did love him as Batman.

I think a good writer could definitely give Laura good plots. I'm not convinced that her current series is doing that (cue rage from her fans. ). But again, I'm not a really big fan of the original Wolverine, so I'm clearly not the target audience.

Even an exclusive contract doesn't really give BQM as much money as being an executive producer/writer for a TV show. At least, that's my speculation. And it's almost certainly not as good on the benefits side.

I would even be okay with Steph taking a break for a while, since she's so angry and bitter and has damaged so many of her relationships. But I just want her to have something good at the end of this run. And she's had precious little good.

[The Dying Detective]

I don't think publishing in regular floppy format was what CAUSED it to fail, but I do think it chokes off access to a lot of people. Also, the regular ongoing title format means that the endings are less satisfying, which cuts off audiences who want a standalone story. So it was just not as successful as titles aimed directly at the "normal" mainstream comics readers.

I dunno if I'd say Dick is a BETTER Batman, but I did love him as Batman.

I think a good writer could definitely give Laura good plots. I'm not convinced that her current series is doing that (cue rage from her fans. ). But again, I'm not a really big fan of the original Wolverine, so I'm clearly not the target audience.

Even an exclusive contract doesn't really give BQM as much money as being an executive producer/writer for a TV show. At least, that's my speculation. And it's almost certainly not as good on the benefits side.

I would even be okay with Steph taking a break for a while, since she's so angry and bitter and has damaged so many of her relationships. But I just want her to have something good at the end of this run. And she's had precious little good.

If the plan of MAX was to try and widen Marvel's reach it obviously failed as the general public prefer definite endings in books over the indefinite endings of regular comics. I don't see how DC's approach is going to get more new readers of their mainline comics though.

I also wondered what the Batman franchise would be like if Dick stayed as Batman though.

Well I don't think catering to Wolverine fans is really the problem and I'm not convinced either that Laura's current series giving her any good plots at all. The problem with the current plots is that they don't suit Laura's character she needs more plots that are grittier or at least suspenseful and dangerous in design if they want to tame her a little.

Would an editorial position entice Bryan Q. Miller to return then? It should a lot him tons of benefits.

Well yeah Stephanie needs it the only problem is will the next writer pick use her again?