Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[The Dying Detective]

I don't think they have discarded it?

What weaknesses do you see in her Batgirl costume?

Well considering how later on Stephanie is shown wearing her Post-Crisis costume she could have discarded or put it away for some reason. Well it's the same weaknesses as Barbara's Batgirl costumes the mask exposes her eyes and hair which would make her identity very vulnerable at least the domino masks cover the eyes. But even those fall into the same weaknesses I said.

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Well considering how later on Stephanie is shown wearing her Post-Crisis costume she could have discarded or put it away for some reason. Well it's the same weaknesses as Barbara's Batgirl costumes the mask exposes her eyes and hair which would make her identity very vulnerable at least the domino masks cover the eyes. But even those fall into the same weaknesses I said.

The only thing that changed between the n52 and Rebirth for Steph's costume is that she changed her half-mask for a full head stocking with eye lenses. And given what we see in 980-981, I think it's quite possible she's back to he half mask. She never changed back to the pirate boots or full purple body stocking with broad belts, instead of the ribbed purple sides and black body.

Hmm. Well, the whole secret identity thing is pretty much just assumed at this point. Remember Clark Kent's glasses! It's super effective.

[The Dying Detective]

The only thing that changed between the n52 and Rebirth for Steph's costume is that she changed her half-mask for a full head stocking with eye lenses. And given what we see in 980-981, I think it's quite possible she's back to he half mask. She never changed back to the pirate boots or full purple body stocking with broad belts, instead of the ribbed purple sides and black body.

Hmm. Well, the whole secret identity thing is pretty much just assumed at this point. Remember Clark Kent's glasses! It's super effective.

But didn't she change the style of her hood for that was closer to her Post-Crisis one? Admittedly I should have caught on to the fact that Stephanie did look like she was wearing her New 52 suit in the closing issues of Tynion's run. I'm dense. Yes I know but Superman's actor for the first Superman film dressed up like Clark Kent on set and no one even knew it was him!

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But didn't she change the style of her hood for that was closer to her Post-Crisis one? Admittedly I should have caught on to the fact that Stephanie did look like she was wearing her New 52 suit in the closing issues of Tynion's run. I'm dense. Yes I know but Superman's actor for the first Superman film dressed up like Clark Kent on set and no one even knew it was him!

No, just the head stocking. The hood itself is the same.

Henry Cavill did a similar thing in New York around the release of Batman v. Superman, which I thought was hilarious and cute. The real problem is not if you are able to walk undetected a few times, but if you work closely with people (like Lois and Clark) and they don't realize you have two identities.

That being said, I've never been super interested in secret identity focused plots (see also: I have zero interest in reading Identity Crisis), so I don't mind that Steph as Batgirl is pretty obviously Stephanie Brown, intrepid college student.

[The Dying Detective]

No, just the head stocking. The hood itself is the same.

Henry Cavill did a similar thing in New York around the release of Batman v. Superman, which I thought was hilarious and cute. The real problem is not if you are able to walk undetected a few times, but if you work closely with people (like Lois and Clark) and they don't realize you have two identities.

That being said, I've never been super interested in secret identity focused plots (see also: I have zero interest in reading Identity Crisis), so I don't mind that Steph as Batgirl is pretty obviously Stephanie Brown, intrepid college student.

Huh right then still I hope she ditched the head stocking though. I heard of Henry Cavill's attempt to promote the the film by going around New York dressed in a shirt that was supposed to help but I thought he was promoting Man of Steel. Okay that is the fundamental flaw of the Clark Kent identity and not even what was suggested by Wikipedia that he simply slouches and wear baggier clothes could hide that. But yeah it's a problem not limited to just Superman anyway. Well why don't you like secret identity focused plots because secret identities have been essential for superheroes at least on the DC side Marvel not so much these days with only a few remanents of the old order remaining namely Spider-Man, Daredevil, and weirdly enough Ms. marvel Kamala Khan.

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Huh right then still I hope she ditched the head stocking though. I heard of Henry Cavill's attempt to promote the the film by going around New York dressed in a shirt that was supposed to help but I thought he was promoting Man of Steel. Okay that is the fundamental flaw of the Clark Kent identity and not even what was suggested by Wikipedia that he simply slouches and wear baggier clothes could hide that. But yeah it's a problem not limited to just Superman anyway. Well why don't you like secret identity focused plots because secret identities have been essential for superheroes at least on the DC side Marvel not so much these days with only a few remanents of the old order remaining namely Spider-Man, Daredevil, and weirdly enough Ms. marvel Kamala Khan.

I don't mind secret identities. I dislike plots that are all about "HOW DO WE KEEP IT A SECRET" because that focuses on "realism", which is silly in superhero comics (we should look for realism of character, not realism of superpowers or secret identities). Especially since the standard plot of a secret identity story is either 1) OH NO someone KNOWS and now they have KILLED the hero's love interest (Identity Crisis, Kyle Rayner); 2) OH NO someone KNOWS and now the hero must STOP being a hero (Tim Drake, Spider-Man, etc).

It's just not interesting, because it's not focused on being a hero and saving people and making the world a better place. It's narcissistic and self-focused, the opposite of what I think a good superhero story should be.

[The Dying Detective]

I don't mind secret identities. I dislike plots that are all about "HOW DO WE KEEP IT A SECRET" because that focuses on "realism", which is silly in superhero comics (we should look for realism of character, not realism of superpowers or secret identities). Especially since the standard plot of a secret identity story is either 1) OH NO someone KNOWS and now they have KILLED the hero's love interest (Identity Crisis, Kyle Rayner); 2) OH NO someone KNOWS and now the hero must STOP being a hero (Tim Drake, Spider-Man, etc).

It's just not interesting, because it's not focused on being a hero and saving people and making the world a better place. It's narcissistic and self-focused, the opposite of what I think a good superhero story should be.

Hmm is that so? But Superman had to do a lot of dodging back when he and Lois were not married and she was torn between people who she thought were two different men and was part of the charm of their old dynamic. Well it's honestly one of the key dangers of having two lives and if the writer does not play with it well there is nothing all that entertaining about a secret identity. And it also sometimes does help provide some nice character building moment at least in the case of Spider-Man but not in Civil War I. And we know how well that went. Because apart from being heroes and set the example, superheroes are supposed to be our entertainment.

[millernumber1]

Hmm is that so? But Superman had to do a lot of dodging back when he and Lois were not married and she was torn between people who she thought were two different men and was part of the charm of their old dynamic. Well it's honestly one of the key dangers of having two lives and if the writer does not play with it well there is nothing all that entertaining about a secret identity. And it also sometimes does help provide some nice character building moment at least in the case of Spider-Man but not in Civil War I. And we know how well that went. Because apart from being heroes and set the example, superheroes are supposed to be our entertainment.

Well, there's a reason I prefer the Super marriage to the Clark/Superman/Lois triangle.

Oh, I liked it when Spidey told the world his secret identity, though it's poisoned now because of how they "fixed" it with One More Day.

Ah, well. There was a time when Steph's secret identity was revealed - first to her mom, then again when she died and then War Crimes made her identity public on television as part of her dad's plot to humiliate Batman. Thankfully, they retconned that out of continuity after they also brought Steph back.

[The Dying Detective]

Well, there's a reason I prefer the Super marriage to the Clark/Superman/Lois triangle.

Oh, I liked it when Spidey told the world his secret identity, though it's poisoned now because of how they "fixed" it with One More Day.

Ah, well. There was a time when Steph's secret identity was revealed - first to her mom, then again when she died and then War Crimes made her identity public on television as part of her dad's plot to humiliate Batman. Thankfully, they retconned that out of continuity after they also brought Steph back.

Still it was what it was back then entertainment nothing else nothing less. Because on paper to be in love with two people who are the same man well it's kind of funny. But continuing it for the next thirty or so years would probably be detrimental. Yeah but some Spider-Man fans well it was out of character especially when he spent years dodging any attempt to be found out. And how did Stephanie's mom take it when she learned about it I hope it was better than how Tim's father took the revelation of Tim being Robin. What did they do to deal with Cluemaster revealing her identity in War Games anyway did they just ignore it?

[millernumber1]

And how did Stephanie's mom take it when she learned about it I hope it was better than how Tim's father took the revelation of Tim being Robin. What did they do to deal with Cluemaster revealing her identity in War Games anyway did they just ignore it?

Nope, Steph's mom made her quit being Spoiler, too. Not to mention since Steph's dad and uncle were both criminals, Steph's mom didn't want her to get in conflict with them, so she had lots of conflict about it.

They completely ignored the whole "Everyone knows that Steph was Robin" thing when Steph returned from the dead - despite the fact that they kept the whole "Cluemaster is still alive" thing.

I really don't know what canon was about War Crimes...

[The Dying Detective]

Nope, Steph's mom made her quit being Spoiler, too. Not to mention since Steph's dad and uncle were both criminals, Steph's mom didn't want her to get in conflict with them, so she had lots of conflict about it.

They completely ignored the whole "Everyone knows that Steph was Robin" thing when Steph returned from the dead - despite the fact that they kept the whole "Cluemaster is still alive" thing.

I really don't know what canon was about War Crimes...

Well that's something Stephanie and tim had in common then very over protective parent though In Tim's case there was hint of jealousy in the idea that Bruce was training him. This is the opposite though how Crystal Brown took Stephanie return to vigilantism in her Batgirl title where as you know she was aware that her daughter's late night activities. Just feigning ignorance for some reason even the news of Stephanie being shot again get her to try and stop her again for some reason. And I'm sure even then Cluemaster was alive but what about her uncle?

Weird that people ignored Stephanie being Robin this whole time though in the same case of how Priest ignored Deathstroke's family being dead in the New 52 I guess it was not worth the trouble to deal with what was done in War Crimes. But what was the aftermath shown War Crimes about any way?

[millernumber1]

Well that's something Stephanie and tim had in common then very over protective parent though In Tim's case there was hint of jealousy in the idea that Bruce was training him. This is the opposite though how Crystal Brown took Stephanie return to vigilantism in her Batgirl title where as you know she was aware that her daughter's late night activities. Just feigning ignorance for some reason even the news of Stephanie being shot again get her to try and stop her again for some reason. And I'm sure even then Cluemaster was alive but what about her uncle?

Weird that people ignored Stephanie being Robin this whole time though in the same case of how Priest ignored Deathstroke's family being dead in the New 52 I guess it was not worth the trouble to deal with what was done in War Crimes. But what was the aftermath shown War Crimes about any way?

Well, Steph had a lot more support and maturity as Batgirl than as Spoiler, so Crystal being proud of her instead of telling her to stop makes sense as development.

Her uncle only showed up in one story - Batman Chronicles #22 (I just got a hard copy of that issue!)

Yeah, comics has always been comics. It's always been that way.

The aftermath of War Crimes was that Leslie was a murderer and exiled from Gotham, and everyone knew Steph was Robin. I don't think anything else changed.

[The Dying Detective]

Well, Steph had a lot more support and maturity as Batgirl than as Spoiler, so Crystal being proud of her instead of telling her to stop makes sense as development.

Her uncle only showed up in one story - Batman Chronicles #22 (I just got a hard copy of that issue!)

Yeah, comics has always been comics. It's always been that way.

The aftermath of War Crimes was that Leslie was a murderer and exiled from Gotham, and everyone knew Steph was Robin. I don't think anything else changed.

Well at least it saves Crystal Brown the trouble of having to argue with Stephanie yet again and potentially go through what Tim's father did when he tried to stop Tim from being Robin. I guess Stephanie's uncle was a very lackluster character then. I read about that Leslie Thompkins refusing to save Stephanie it shocked me when I read it on Wikipedia as I had watch Batman: the Animated Series by then. But didn't they retcon the outcome of War Crimes into Leslie did save Stephanie's life and just smuggled her out of Gotham?

[millernumber1]

Well at least it saves Crystal Brown the trouble of having to argue with Stephanie yet again and potentially go through what Tim's father did when he tried to stop Tim from being Robin. I guess Stephanie's uncle was a very lackluster character then. I read about that Leslie Thompkins refusing to save Stephanie it shocked me when I read it on Wikipedia as I had watch Batman: the Animated Series by then. But didn't they retcon the outcome of War Crimes into Leslie did save Stephanie's life and just smuggled her out of Gotham?

Yup, he was just a minor punk. No supercriminal gimmick, or special ability, just a thief and liar. But Steph cleaned his clock right quick!

Yeah, Leslie's character assassination was terrible. And that's part of why I like it every time Tynion used her in Tec - because even though it was a very small element, it felt like the universe being set to rights a little bit more.

Yes, Steph's death was completely retconned, so obviously Leslie didn't let her die. But it was done right around Batman RIP, so they didn't have time to really explore how that all went down.

Which is what fanfic is for!

[The Dying Detective]

Yup, he was just a minor punk. No supercriminal gimmick, or special ability, just a thief and liar. But Steph cleaned his clock right quick!

Yeah, Leslie's character assassination was terrible. And that's part of why I like it every time Tynion used her in Tec - because even though it was a very small element, it felt like the universe being set to rights a little bit more.

Yes, Steph's death was completely retconned, so obviously Leslie didn't let her die. But it was done right around Batman RIP, so they didn't have time to really explore how that all went down.

Which is what fanfic is for!

And I can't even see why Crystal Brown was even afraid of him with her ex-husband she had a reason because he had a gimmick at least but him not likely. But even before Tynion began using Leslie Thomkins in Detective Comic wouldn't the retcon had already begun saving her character? Well that's what comics are fanfiction just professionally written fanfiction. So it was around the time Batman died that's why they never could address why did everyone forget Stephanie's identity was outed to all of Gotham? That's kind of sad because it might be taking it a little too far even for comics but with Deathstroke I mean no one really stays dead in comics these days except for the average civilian who's going to be sacrificed so I don't think anyone really cares these days to find dead characters alive again for no reason.