Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[millernumber1]

And I can't even see why Crystal Brown was even afraid of him with her ex-husband she had a reason because he had a gimmick at least but him not likely. But even before Tynion began using Leslie Thomkins in Detective Comic wouldn't the retcon had already begun saving her character? Well that's what comics are fanfiction just professionally written fanfiction. So it was around the time Batman died that's why they never could address why did everyone forget Stephanie's identity was outed to all of Gotham? That's kind of sad because it might be taking it a little too far even for comics but with Deathstroke I mean no one really stays dead in comics these days except for the average civilian who's going to be sacrificed so I don't think anyone really cares these days to find dead characters alive again for no reason.

Crystal wasn't afraid of her brother - she refused to see that he was a bad guy because he was her little brother. So Steph had to put him in jail.

Yes, the retcon did allow Leslie to come back to Gotham, but because Bruce died, it was difficult to really fix the problems that War Crimes caused.

The real reason they never addressed the logistics of the retcon was the Dixon was fired and the FabNic decided to use Steph as a pawn in his "Make Tim Drake a mini Batman" plotline.

Yeah, I hate the way there's two levels of death in comics, but it is the way it is.

[The Dying Detective]

Crystal wasn't afraid of her brother - she refused to see that he was a bad guy because he was her little brother. So Steph had to put him in jail.

Yes, the retcon did allow Leslie to come back to Gotham, but because Bruce died, it was difficult to really fix the problems that War Crimes caused.

The real reason they never addressed the logistics of the retcon was the Dixon was fired and the FabNic decided to use Steph as a pawn in his "Make Tim Drake a mini Batman" plotline.

Yeah, I hate the way there's two levels of death in comics, but it is the way it is.

Oh admittedly I thought that Stephanie's uncle was her father's brother. You're referring to that story in Red Robin where he had Miss Martian pretend to be him to throw off Vicki Vale right? And a shame Dixon was fired but he still came back if only for to write the Bane story. Maybe it's time they stopped killing off important characters because it is getting ridiculous.

[millernumber1]

Oh admittedly I thought that Stephanie's uncle was her father's brother. You're referring to that story in Red Robin where he had Miss Martian pretend to be him to throw off Vicki Vale right? And a shame Dixon was fired but he still came back if only for to write the Bane story. Maybe it's time they stopped killing off important characters because it is getting ridiculous.

Leslie actually came back to Gotham in Gotham Gazette, during Battle for the Cowl, written by FabNic (of course...) She hired the Cavalier as a guard for her new free clinic. But that setup the story (also written by FabNic) in Red Robin where he fakes his own shooting.

I completely agree that they should stop killing off characters.

[The Dying Detective]

Leslie actually came back to Gotham in Gotham Gazette, during Battle for the Cowl, written by FabNic (of course...) She hired the Cavalier as a guard for her new free clinic. But that setup the story (also written by FabNic) in Red Robin where he fakes his own shooting.

I completely agree that they should stop killing off characters.

Huh so that's how Leslie came back but how exactly did Nicieza use Stephanie as part of a plot to make Tim into a mini-Batman. i swear it's like there's a competition to turn both Tim into a mini-Batman when really Damian who is technically a mini-Batman already owns that shtick. Writers need to give Tim a new one. You should see the outrage over at the X-forums I know you don't really like the X-Men but they are suffering a lot because the newer more obscure character who were not created by Byrne/Lee (Not Stan)/Claremont keep being used as canon fodder. Besides if characters can be brought whether by faking a death, magic, or technology then it just makes death well pointless.

[millernumber1]

Huh so that's how Leslie came back but how exactly did Nicieza use Stephanie as part of a plot to make Tim into a mini-Batman. i swear it's like there's a competition to turn both Tim into a mini-Batman when really Damian who is technically a mini-Batman already owns that shtick. Writers need to give Tim a new one. You should see the outrage over at the X-forums I know you don't really like the X-Men but they are suffering a lot because the newer more obscure character who were not created by Byrne/Lee (Not Stan)/Claremont keep being used as canon fodder. Besides if characters can be brought whether by faking a death, magic, or technology then it just makes death well pointless.

FabNic had Steph hire literal supervillains (including the one who GOT HER FIRED AS ROBIN, Scarab) to cause problems for Tim to solve, because Batman told her to make Tim a better Robin. Like...ugh. I really hate that arc. Plus it makes literally no sense if you try to read it all together.

I know I seem alone, at least on these forums, because I like the way Tynion has written Tim in general (with a few exceptions like Batman and Robin Eternal #1).

I don't think I actually dislike the X-Men, but I generally distrust team books (with Tec as a significant exception). I love several of the X-Men individually, though, like Emma Frost (I really enjoyed the recent X-Men Blue arc, especially with awesome Red Robin artist Marcus To drawing everyone!)

Death being pointless is a serious problem in comics. However, I have a difficult time complaining when Steph and Clayface and many others I love are brought back because of comics.

Mostly, I hope for good stories, and bad stories to be ignored or retconned.

[The Dying Detective]

FabNic had Steph hire literal supervillains (including the one who GOT HER FIRED AS ROBIN, Scarab) to cause problems for Tim to solve, because Batman told her to make Tim a better Robin. Like...ugh. I really hate that arc. Plus it makes literally no sense if you try to read it all together.

I know I seem alone, at least on these forums, because I like the way Tynion has written Tim in general (with a few exceptions like Batman and Robin Eternal #1).

I don't think I actually dislike the X-Men, but I generally distrust team books (with Tec as a significant exception). I love several of the X-Men individually, though, like Emma Frost (I really enjoyed the recent X-Men Blue arc, especially with awesome Red Robin artist Marcus To drawing everyone!)

Death being pointless is a serious problem in comics. However, I have a difficult time complaining when Steph and Clayface and many others I love are brought back because of comics.

Mostly, I hope for good stories, and bad stories to be ignored or retconned.

There were other ways for Nicieza to have used Stephanie to better Tim like being a good and supporting friend and girlfriend. And maybe even call in a few favour from their other compatriots from the Teen Titans and Young Justice to help Tim out. You can tell at times that Nicieza is a huge Tim Drake fan and like Tynion he has his own idealised view of Tim. But it generally depends on which one stayed true to Tim's core as a character. And for most people here I guess that Tynion didn't stay true to Tim's core by using the hacker fu thing. But I do agree with you that in contrast to Nicieza's prep god thing it actually makes better sense and is in some ways a little preferable but of those who are in the majority opinion and those people like it or not are the ones DC should be catering to they should dial it back a little.

Yeah I can tell that Detective Comics is to your liking especially when you like pretty much every current Batfamily character. Why do you not like team books in general anyway? In away it is a two edged sword type thing. Permanent death in comics means you will never see any of your favourites eve again. But on the other hand making sure no one stays dead means that you can see them again anyway. Though some character like Barry Allen and Jean Grey have been dead longer than most characters. I think everyone just wants a good story in general because maybe that's what comic companies lack these days a desire to priorities good stories.

[millernumber1]

There were other ways for Nicieza to have used Stephanie to better Tim like being a good and supporting friend and girlfriend. And maybe even call in a few favour from their other compatriots from the Teen Titans and Young Justice to help Tim out. You can tell at times that Nicieza is a huge Tim Drake fan and like Tynion he has his own idealised view of Tim. But it generally depends on which one stayed true to Tim's core as a character. And for most people here I guess that Tynion didn't stay true to Tim's core by using the hacker fu thing. But I do agree with you that in contrast to Nicieza's prep god thing it actually makes better sense and is in some ways a little preferable but of those who are in the majority opinion and those people like it or not are the ones DC should be catering to they should dial it back a little.

Yeah I can tell that Detective Comics is to your liking especially when you like pretty much every current Batfamily character. Why do you not like team books in general anyway? In away it is a two edged sword type thing. Permanent death in comics means you will never see any of your favourites eve again. But on the other hand making sure no one stays dead means that you can see them again anyway. Though some character like Barry Allen and Jean Grey have been dead longer than most characters. I think everyone just wants a good story in general because maybe that's what comic companies lack these days a desire to priorities good stories.

Well, I personally would have liked FabNic to use Steph in such a way that she had her own goals. Both 1) being a supportive girlfriend and 2) following Batman's weird orders to "test" Tim to make him a "better Robin" are both All About Tim. I am a huge TimSteph shipper, obviously, but I think Steph deserved and needed to connect with other characters, like Cass especially, and that could have been much more interesting than the really confusing and nonsensical plot that FabNic ended up doing.

I really think that Tynion didn't rely on hacker fu as much as people say. I think a lot of it comes from the negative impression that Batman and Robin Eternal #1 left on people, where he hacked that one guy's gun. But in Tec, he rarely did that kind of thing as his main contribution to the story.

Haha, I think a large part of why I loved Tec so much is that no joke, I love all of those characters. Batman, of course, Batwoman from Elegy and her n52 run, Tim from his time as Robin, Steph from her whole self, Cass from her time as Batgirl, Jean-Paul because of his conflicted time as Batman and his bombastic nature, Luke because of his connection to the Fox family. I didn't know about Clayface, but I was won over by Tynion's relationship between Cass and Basil. So it was a rare case of loving every character, and thus whenever they got screentime, I was happy. I think, too often, that my problem with team books is that I care about one or two characters, but I get irritated when others get screentime (that's certainly my problem with most Justice League and Avengers books). Good writers, like Priest or Whedon, can make me care about everyone (Priest's Justice League and Whedon's Astonishing X-Men were landmark runs for me), but on the whole, I think too many books expect me to care about everyone first. Possibly even Tec, because I DID care about everyone first.

I just hope that Tim and Steph (Steph especially) land in a team book that isn't too crowded with people I don't care about.

[The Dying Detective]

Well, I personally would have liked FabNic to use Steph in such a way that she had her own goals. Both 1) being a supportive girlfriend and 2) following Batman's weird orders to "test" Tim to make him a "better Robin" are both All About Tim. I am a huge TimSteph shipper, obviously, but I think Steph deserved and needed to connect with other characters, like Cass especially, and that could have been much more interesting than the really confusing and nonsensical plot that FabNic ended up doing.

I really think that Tynion didn't rely on hacker fu as much as people say. I think a lot of it comes from the negative impression that Batman and Robin Eternal #1 left on people, where he hacked that one guy's gun. But in Tec, he rarely did that kind of thing as his main contribution to the story.

Haha, I think a large part of why I loved Tec so much is that no joke, I love all of those characters. Batman, of course, Batwoman from Elegy and her n52 run, Tim from his time as Robin, Steph from her whole self, Cass from her time as Batgirl, Jean-Paul because of his conflicted time as Batman and his bombastic nature, Luke because of his connection to the Fox family. I didn't know about Clayface, but I was won over by Tynion's relationship between Cass and Basil. So it was a rare case of loving every character, and thus whenever they got screentime, I was happy. I think, too often, that my problem with team books is that I care about one or two characters, but I get irritated when others get screentime (that's certainly my problem with most Justice League and Avengers books). Good writers, like Priest or Whedon, can make me care about everyone (Priest's Justice League and Whedon's Astonishing X-Men were landmark runs for me), but on the whole, I think too many books expect me to care about everyone first. Possibly even Tec, because I DID care about everyone first.

I just hope that Tim and Steph (Steph especially) land in a team book that isn't too crowded with people I don't care about.

I get what you mean but when the story is about Tim Stephanie's role should be to play the supporting role for the time being until someone can dream up a story to develop her and her relationships even further. Even when Tomasi used Lois she got to shine just not at the expense of Superman who is supposed to be the star. Lois is a strong enough character to hold her own solo book but when the story is about Superman it should stay about Superman.

Is that so? then I really have to read the older issues of Tynion's run on Detective Comics. Though I think the sore point was how Tynion had Tim hack the Colony drones to target him before his apparent death. Well for me it's not always because I like all the characters I see in the case of Detective Comics team I just put up with the presence of some of the characters I did not like. I think Luke was one the characters that got the least amount of page time and development outside of his friendship Jean Paul. And just focus my attention mainly on those I did care about actually. Avengers I tend to not care about anyone the Justice League on the other hand spoke to me more.

Well that depends if Tim and Stephanie land a Young Justice book. It would have to depend on whether you cared about the original Young Justice characters.

[juffuj5]

I wish Steph wasn't so intertwined with Tim Drake, she's a much better when she's not a supporting character of Tim.

[The Dying Detective]

I wish Steph wasn't so intertwined with Tim Drake, she's a much better when she's not a supporting character of Tim.

Well that was the very reason was created in the first place to be a supporting character for Tim she's just carrying out her function. And I see that you are new here so welcome!

[Mataza]

Tims growth always came from hardship. Bruce knew this.

This wasnt a kid that got better with training or just experience, but with pressure. So pressuring him to be better made sense. A lot of people respond to this, others just break in the face of it. Pre flashpoint Tim managed to perform formidable feats because there was no other way to save the day.

Nicieza understands the characters he writes, on a deeper level than most writers. He gets inside their heads and what makes them tick, why they do what they do and how they do it.

As to Bruce making Tim into batman, its no secret that Tim was the one meant to carry the mantle, the one trained to do so, on Bruces admision. People think this was some sort of new development when Damian came, but jesus, just read the comic.

Also people in this board, and in this board only, think Tim should give up everything that defines him because someone else, that came after, is using it.

[The Dying Detective]

Tims growth always came from hardship. Bruce knew this.

This wasnt a kid that got better with training or just experience, but with pressure. So pressuring him to be better made sense. A lot of people respond to this, others just break in the face of it. Pre flashpoint Tim managed to perform formidable feats because there was no other way to save the day.

Nicieza understands the characters he writes, on a deeper level than most writers. He gets inside their heads and what makes them tick, why they do what they do and how they do it.

As to Bruce making Tim into batman, its no secret that Tim was the one meant to carry the mantle, the one trained to do so, on Bruces admision. People think this was some sort of new development when Damian came, but jesus, just read the comic.

Also people in this board, and in this board only, think Tim should give up everything that defines him because someone else, that came after, is using it.

Um are you sure you got the right thread to post this?

[millernumber1]

Is that so? then I really have to read the older issues of Tynion's run on Detective Comics. Though I think the sore point was how Tynion had Tim hack the Colony drones to target him before his apparent death. Well for me it's not always because I like all the characters I see in the case of Detective Comics team I just put up with the presence of some of the characters I did not like. I think Luke was one the characters that got the least amount of page time and development outside of his friendship Jean Paul. And just focus my attention mainly on those I did care about actually. Avengers I tend to not care about anyone the Justice League on the other hand spoke to me more.

Well that depends if Tim and Stephanie land a Young Justice book. It would have to depend on whether you cared about the original Young Justice characters.

The argument about Steph in Tec is that it's not a Tim book, though. It's supposed to be a team book, and she should have her own plotline. I think she more or less did, but it was definitely very connected/driven by a lot of Steph's connections to Tim. I appreciate that, since I think it's an attempt to honor her first 100 issues in Robin as a supporting character for Tim, but it feels like Tynion didn't really value Steph as a potential solo character in the same way he valued Cass, Tim, Kate, and even Azrael.

Tim hacking the drones was a good use of hacking, because it was one thing that helped, but it didn't magically solve the problem - Tim still had to hold the drones off with his own skill (and ultimately failed because there were too many of them).

I don't really care about Teen Titans of Young Justice, which is kind of why I'm not super excited about that idea.

I wish Steph wasn't so intertwined with Tim Drake, she's a much better when she's not a supporting character of Tim.

Another welcome!

As for Steph being intertwined with Tim...I agree that she's more than worthy of a solo run, but I really disagree with any argument that she isn't a supporting character for Tim, or that she's bad as a supporting character for Tim. That's how she was created, and for 15 years, she shone in that role. I think the problem is now, we have about three years of her (as Batgirl, as Robin, and in various one-shots or miniseries) proving herself as a solo character, and I think that makes her going back to being Tim's supporting character (as she did with both FabNic and Tynion) a bit frustrating, because it feels like a bit of a regression.

But I think her time as a supporting character for Tim should be honored, not swept under the rug.

Tims growth always came from hardship. Bruce knew this.

This wasnt a kid that got better with training or just experience, but with pressure. So pressuring him to be better made sense. A lot of people respond to this, others just break in the face of it. Pre flashpoint Tim managed to perform formidable feats because there was no other way to save the day.

Nicieza understands the characters he writes, on a deeper level than most writers. He gets inside their heads and what makes them tick, why they do what they do and how they do it.

As to Bruce making Tim into batman, its no secret that Tim was the one meant to carry the mantle, the one trained to do so, on Bruces admision. People think this was some sort of new development when Damian came, but jesus, just read the comic.

Also people in this board, and in this board only, think Tim should give up everything that defines him because someone else, that came after, is using it.

FabNic definitely has solid knowledge of his characters, though I disagree with the directions he chooses to go with those characters. The problem is that no-ones plans in Robin #176-183 really make any sense. They're all about one-issue reveals, but when you try to piece together the whole arc and the motivations and end goals for each character, it just falls apart completely.

For 100 issues, Tim was not meant to take the mantle. Dixon generally saw Dick as the heir. When Dixon left, Johns and Loeb pushed Tim in the direction of Batman through Titans of Tomorrow and Hush, but that was a definite change in trajectory. Damian changed that trajectory again. Yost tried to get Tim back to his Teen Titans status quo - relying on people, away from his darkness, but FabNic took the Johns path again, pushing him towards a Batman who would cross lines that Bruce never would. It sometimes was interesting, but too often, it was just frustrating.

I have no idea why you think Steph fans was Tim to stop being Robin (even if I do think Steph is the best Robin ever. ). Tim is my favorite of the male Robins, and I think Tynion did a really solid job of bringing him back to that role instead of the weird n52 Teen Titans Tim that Lobdell created.

Lastly, even if you grant that Bruce was right to test Tim against villains he deliberately used (and I think that's a huge IF - one of Jon Lewis's better stories out of his really bizarre run was the birthday that Bruce faked a message from the future, and I think it showed that Bruce's plans tend to backfire when he tries that kind of stuff), having Steph hiring Scarab in particular was really, really offensive to Steph fans, since Scarab was the villain who got Steph fired as Robin and led to her "death" in War Games.

[juffuj5]

Thanks! Also, she was actually initially created to be a one-off character for her debut storyline in Detective Comics all those years ago. I dislike how she's pretty much right now revoling around Tim and basically never interacted with anyone else in Tec. She's proven to be much more than that and I wish that one day that her being his girlfriend won't be the thing that writers associate with the most.

[millernumber1]

Um are you sure you got the right thread to post this?

Peeps can post about Tim if we're talking about Tim. I just always try to bring it back to Steph.